I do not think a conversation about recovery is complete without the interaction of Recovery / "Signal for Adaptation" / Performance improvement.

They are often at odds with each other, but with a clear understanding of the goals of the sessions / need for recovery, then it's clear which is more important.

E.g. NAC is a powerful antioxidant.
Scenario 1: If riding in a multiple-day stage race, it is beneficial for recovery, as tomorrows performance is of utmost important.
Scenario 2: Taken during the course of normal trying, it's antioxidant properties may limit performance improve due to the reduction of the stress signal.

Additionally, we need to frame recovery in the reason for it's being: Performance improvement, either in the short or long-term.

e.g. 40g of protein immediately following exercise has been correlated with improved performance gains in the near and short-term.
e.g. Carbohydrate depletion negatively effects recovery and short-term performance, but has the potential to lead to adaptations that improve performance in the long-term.

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I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

You have to define what is your recovery goal. For example:
-if your goal is to get the benefits out of today's workout and be ready for tomorrow
-shedding fatigue and getting race ready for next weekend
-what are you doing between rep 4 and rep 5 of the interval set you are working

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Definitely don't want to stifle good discussion but for purposes of this conversation I think focusing on recovery off the heels of an entire workout or race versus in between sets, is more the direction we'd like to steer this.

What is your personal approach to recovery in between workouts? Are you au naturale or do you put technology to use? Or both?

Are you au naturale or do you put technology to use?
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When they develop a sensor that just measures the amount of food, including it's nutrient breakdown, that goes into my mouth with me needing to (at most) press a button, then I'm all in. Until then, homie ain't go no time for measuring, recording, and calculating the stuff that I cram down my pie hole. The only thing I do is make sure *most* of the foods are pretty good quality, mostly real foods. Oh, and cheese. Plus, don't discount the recovery wine. I hear it's loaded with carbs.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

This is fantastic that you posted this! We opened The Recovery Lounge in Franklin, TN as a response to this exact issue. As an endurance athlete myself, I saw a gap in the industry that focuses on recovery. We started with access to therapies that the average person may not have access to either because of price or practicality. This included cryotherapy, Normatec compression, electrotherapy, and stretch therapy (hugely popular!). We also included smoothies as we knew that nutrient recovery was important too. Of course there are many more therapies but these seemed to be what people want. As we continue to learn what people want, we will add to the pile.

We also built the place to be more "spa-like" and not clinical as we thought it would be a better place to chill. What we found out was that is more important that we initially thought! We saw people physically drop their shoulders as they sat down in our recliners and actually relax! Getting the mind right to accept recovery became just as important.

I am personally excited to see how this forum plays out. I know I am not the first person to think of this as there is a growing industry dedicated to recovery. I hope this is an area that starts to gain in importance more and this forum will really help!

Massive sale just unleashed on NormaTec's website running for the next 72 hours. Looks like most PULSE recovery packages are $300 off.

You won't find a better price on this all year. Knowing all the players and what it costs to manufacturer I am slightly shocked they lowered it this far. I know Air Relax has had a sale or two since COVID-19 started, and Speed Hound was talking about doing something, but this is really good opportunity to buy a pair of Normatec boots. I actually just bought another pair myself at this price via Amazon. Ended up being a little cheaper as a prime VISA member as I got the 5% but don't pay shipping and no tax still and you get free returns and a longer return window.

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I have been debating recovery boots vs a deep freezer for ice baths? Any thoughts?

Is there any scientific evidence to suggest that these recovery boots are benefitial to performance improvement? In light of the quote below:

I thought this article was intriguing and might be along the lines of what your looking for.

Hands down on the recovery boots - it is a very passive experience that is quite enjoyable and you can be quite productive versus sitting in an ice bath. I much prefer Epson Salt hot baths as well as opposed to ice baths.

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I would say recovery starts the day before the workout by being properly rested, prepared and fueled, hydrated

Probably missing many things

Wonder this as well

This has come up numerous times over the years on here and on the various threads. There are some studies showing some benefit, for things like range of motion, I can link if you want. IMHO you would really need to do a longer term study to find the benefits including possibly injury prevention. The bottom line I tell everyone is recovery boots are easily the most used recovery tool that athletes utilize outside of food and sleep. They are just so easy and so convenient. The experience is incredibly passive. Over the years I have had numerous athletes tell me about how it calms then down before bed while others say it keeps them out of the kitchen, keeps them still and focused. Live in house with a group of athletes and only one pair and you will find they will fight for them at the end of the day. I don't see anyone ever fighting over ice baths, compex, foam rolling, stretching etc.

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I didn't ask about range of motion. that's not a performance parameter except for certain specific sports.

Just because people use them a lot doesn't mean they are effective for PERFORMANCE gain. why all the non-sequitors?

People fight over ice baths, foam rolling, and stretching too. Ice baths have been shown to decrease the inflamatory response and the "signal for adaptation". Ie you feel better at the expense of decreased performance gain. As far as I know foam rolling hasn't been shown to do anything at all (other than a bunch of placebo, anecdotal crap). Stretching has been shown to decrease performance and/or increase injury depending on how and when its done.

But, that's irrelevant to the question that I asked. Is there ANY reliable, unbiased, peer reviewed study showing that using IPC improves PERFORMANCE---not, recovery (ie, I feel better)...but, performance (ie, I'm faster). Or is it like Ice Baths, you kill the signaling that causes both soreness AND improvement.

The article linked by Valhala really doesn't say anything at all. Its not exactly unbiased, and the studies linked are tenuously linked to athletics...if at all. This paragraph from the article sums it up for me:



I mean, any program that REGULARLY leaves an athlete in a state of DOMS, or with edema sufficient to be very unformfortable and not wanting to train on any give WEEK is a crap plan. What if some mild DOMS and/or edema are NECESSARY signalling for the body to improve?



Really? Even if the faster recovery is at the expence of any strength gains? If I'm not going to get stronger, why lift? Show me a peer-reviewed study of trained athletes that says I can recover faster AND get stronger.

You asked if recovery boots are beneficial to performance improvement. No there really haven't been studies to study that. Doesn't mean they wouldn't have an impact. it is easy to see how range of motion could have benefits of performance improvement and it doesn't take a lot to connect those dots.

Range of motion is one of the most important things an athlete needs, especially if the range of motion is hindered and restricted. You can't take a proper running step, swim a proper stroke, or pedal a single revolution without the range of motion to do so. How is one going to build, day after day, if the range of motion is effectively reduced. If consistency is key, wouldn't having more range of motion at least allow one to have greater consistency? Wouldn't you hypothesize that if the athlete can be more consistent, day after day, that they would experience a performance improvement. Range of motion is also one reason I like to use boots before a workout. To get the blood moving, move the tissues, and warm them up for exercise. It wouldn't be hard to see how a more effective warm-up could leave to better sessions and better performance. But no, people are not studying this.

And I think you misunderstood my point about fighting. IME athletes do not fight over ice baths, foam rollers, stretching. Never have I come home from living with other athletes and someone eye-rolled me because I immediately turned on the water for a bath or grabbed a foam roller. I would imagine it is quite similar in an athletic office situation. Athletes would just prefer to set in boots than get in the ice tank. I didn't mean fight over the effectiveness.

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What do you do when your muscles are sore after a taxing workout? Do you take the next day completely off?

Those days are very rare---by rare I mean, no more often than once (or less) every 2-3 months. I try to ease into workouts that have that potential over a couple weeks. I'm a big believer in the "don't do anything today that prevents you from doing something tomorrow." mantra. Consistency is king.

I can tell when I'm starting to dig that hole. So, I will consciously back off, unless tomorrow is already a day-off. On those days, I'll let myself dig a small hole...but, still a hole I can climb out of in 48 hours. Because there's always another hard workout around the corner, that I don't want to sacrifice.

Have I ever dug a hole too deep? sure. What do I do? Maybe take the day off, but more likely just go easy until things come around. Might be one day, might be three. If its bad enough for three...then the first one is probably a full day off. But, I can't remember the last time i dug a hole that deep. Last spring, maybe?

So you've never used anything to help accelerate your recovery? Or, if so, which products have you tried that you found beneficial?

Nope...none in 47 years of athletics. Sure I've followed the RICE practice for excessive soreness or injury, back when that was a thing (not now).

No one has yet offered evidence that feeling better faster leads to getting faster... As per xtrapickles comment above. In other words, reducing the discomfort reduces the cellular signaling, reduces the response, reduces the performance gain.

That alone is impressive. Mostly because of the consistent disciplined approach. Do you find you need "x" number of hours of sleep to feel properly recovered to tackle your next workout? Or any foods work better for you?

In a former life as a bike racer I'd race in mini stage races (up to 5 days). Every day felt like the hardest day I'd ever spent in the saddle. Whether it was mental or not, I could not fathom taking simply the RICE approach because there was a set time the next day when the next race would start. I had to be on that line, at that time, or the race left without me. In addition to taking care of post-race eating basics, either a light massage or recovery boots were a necessity for me.

That's a lot of supposition without evidence.

No. In short, I wouldn't hypothesize those things. Further, the evidence for a relationship between range of motion and athletic performance in endurance sport is far from clear. At best, beyond having functional range of motion, it is highly sport dependant. In fact, running economy is negatively correlated with increased flexibility.

Perhaps the boots help you warmup...there is scientific evidence to support an active warmup as aiding in injury prevention. Dunno if the boots are functionally equivalent to an active warmup, though. Would need evidence, again. Otherwise, I might as well just go do a traditional warmup. What would I be saving?

Look, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just wanted to know if there was ANY scientific evidence to support their use in recovery. I don't just plunk down cash of unproven things. I see video after video of people sitting around in these things. And I see add after add for them. I see coaches having virtual recovery sessions sitting around on zoom in their boots. The whole phenom smacks of a vast marketing ploy. I'm open to being convinced otherwise... As yet, none have offered anything.

Glad you weighed in on this

Thanks

What steps do you take to make sure you're optimizing your recovery?