Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly?

Nov 14, 19 11:12

Post #1 of 40 (8153 views)

I'm doing my first Ironman in 2020 and am testing out shoes for race day. Traditionally I've run in Asics, but the allure of the new carbon-plated shoes is strong. I'm trying to decide whether it is worth investing in the Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly. Ideally I would try both out in training but I'd rather not spend that kind of money, so I'm looking for your thoughts to help me decide if I should invest in one or the other.

I know running shoes are highly individualized and it can be hard to offer advice. If it helps, I aim to run the marathon portion in the 3:40s. I'm relatively light (~140 lbs/ 64 kg) and typically run in the Asics Gel Kayano or GT 2000. While I want a fast shoe, I'll sacrifice speed for comfort and stability that keeps me injury free. If the race were tomorrow, I'd run in the GT 2000s.

According to the Triathlete Magazine review (linked below), the Hoka's are more appropriate for Ironman races when your legs are tired right from the start. Based on that review, Hoka is the way to go. Other reviews are mixed. Some reviews warn that the Hoka is not good for heel strikers, which I am. However, the Triathlete magazine review makes that same claim for the Nikes.

I appreciate any thoughts you have.

https://www.triathlete.com/...running-shoes_385130

https://www.runnersworld.com/...ka-one-one-carbon-x/

https://www.runningshoesguru.com/...one-carbon-x-review/

https://www.roadtrailrun.com/...multi-tester_19.html

Last edited by: Changpao: Nov 14, 19 11:13

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 11:17

Post #2 of 40 (8140 views)

Vaporfly, no competition. I'm sure the Hokas are nice, but they have nothing like the zoomx foam

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 11:26

Post #3 of 40 (8124 views)

i would first see if your feet have an aversion to one or the other. i run great in the pegasus turbo (same foam but no carbon plate) but the next% are too narrow for my low arches and i can't run in them for more than a few miles

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 11:29

Post #4 of 40 (8115 views)

Changpao wrote:

I'm doing my first Ironman in 2020 and am testing out shoes for race day. Traditionally I've run in Asics, but the allure of the new carbon-plated shoes is strong. I'm trying to decide whether it is worth investing in the Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly. Ideally I would try both out in training but I'd rather not spend that kind of money, so I'm looking for your thoughts to help me decide if I should invest in one or the other.

I know running shoes are highly individualized and it can be hard to offer advice. If it helps, I aim to run the marathon portion in the 3:40s. I'm relatively light (~140 lbs/ 64 kg) and typically run in the Asics Gel Kayano or GT 2000. While I want a fast shoe, I'll sacrifice speed for comfort and stability that keeps me injury free. If the race were tomorrow, I'd run in the GT 2000s.

According to the Triathlete Magazine review (linked below), the Hoka's are more appropriate for Ironman races when your legs are tired right from the start. Based on that review, Hoka is the way to go. Other reviews are mixed. Some reviews warn that the Hoka is not good for heel strikers, which I am. However, the Triathlete magazine review makes that same claim for the Nikes.

I appreciate any thoughts you have.

https://www.triathlete.com/...running-shoes_385130

https://www.runnersworld.com/...ka-one-one-carbon-x/

https://www.runningshoesguru.com/...one-carbon-x-review/

https://www.roadtrailrun.com/...multi-tester_19.html

You need to find a shoe that works for you. If that's Asics, it's nuts to abandon them because "carbon." If you are thinking of switching shoes, either go to a real running shoe store where you can actually run in shoes and get at least a little feel for them or gamble on purchasing new shoes. Reviews, including those offered here, are only going to take you so far. My two cents, anyway.

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 11:32

Post #5 of 40 (8106 views)

I just tried a new training shoe yesterday (Nike Zoom Fly Flyknit).

https://www.amazon.com/...aps%2C153&sr=8-1

Somehow, I feel faster in these than the Vaporfly 4%'s. The 4%'s seem slightly more unstable. Also, picking up the Zoom Fly FK, they seemed much heavier, but I didn't notice while running. My turnover was good.

I think I found the perfect training shoe either way for $80. I'm hoping they come out with the AlphaFly next year so am holding out for those for a September race. It sounds like it will be a super shoe.

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [niccolo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 12:15

Post #6 of 40 (8036 views)

niccolo wrote:

Changpao wrote:

I'm doing my first Ironman in 2020 and am testing out shoes for race day. Traditionally I've run in Asics, but the allure of the new carbon-plated shoes is strong. I'm trying to decide whether it is worth investing in the Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly. Ideally I would try both out in training but I'd rather not spend that kind of money, so I'm looking for your thoughts to help me decide if I should invest in one or the other.

I know running shoes are highly individualized and it can be hard to offer advice. If it helps, I aim to run the marathon portion in the 3:40s. I'm relatively light (~140 lbs/ 64 kg) and typically run in the Asics Gel Kayano or GT 2000. While I want a fast shoe, I'll sacrifice speed for comfort and stability that keeps me injury free. If the race were tomorrow, I'd run in the GT 2000s.

According to the Triathlete Magazine review (linked below), the Hoka's are more appropriate for Ironman races when your legs are tired right from the start. Based on that review, Hoka is the way to go. Other reviews are mixed. Some reviews warn that the Hoka is not good for heel strikers, which I am. However, the Triathlete magazine review makes that same claim for the Nikes.

I appreciate any thoughts you have.

https://www.triathlete.com/...running-shoes_385130

https://www.runnersworld.com/...ka-one-one-carbon-x/

https://www.runningshoesguru.com/...one-carbon-x-review/

https://www.roadtrailrun.com/...multi-tester_19.html

You need to find a shoe that works for you. If that's Asics, it's nuts to abandon them because "carbon." If you are thinking of switching shoes, either go to a real running shoe store where you can actually run in shoes and get at least a little feel for them or gamble on purchasing new shoes. Reviews, including those offered here, are only going to take you so far. My two cents, anyway.

Pretty good advice. Worth noting that asics are currently working on a prototype carbon running shoe as well, so if you're willing to wait a small amount of time then you can still stay with your shoe brand of choice. And yes, shoes need to fit your foot comfortably, and it's always nice if you can test the water with how a shoe fits. Personally, I started with the ZoomFly Flyknit which was available in a shop near me, got the right sizing, and bought more shoes off the nike website from there. Sizing was pretty standardized so I didn't have an issue.

However, there is nothing - and I seriously mean, nothing - that comes close to either the 4 or next % available on the market yet from a 'shoe doping' perspective. When the alphafly from nike comes out, that'll be even better, but that's post Tokyo anyway.

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 12:30

Post #7 of 40 (8004 views)

Changpao wrote:

I'm doing my first Ironman in 2020 and am testing out shoes for race day. Traditionally I've run in Asics, but the allure of the new carbon-plated shoes is strong. I'm trying to decide whether it is worth investing in the Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly. Ideally I would try both out in training but I'd rather not spend that kind of money, so I'm looking for your thoughts to help me decide if I should invest in one or the other.

I know running shoes are highly individualized and it can be hard to offer advice. If it helps, I aim to run the marathon portion in the 3:40s. I'm relatively light (~140 lbs/ 64 kg) and typically run in the Asics Gel Kayano or GT 2000. While I want a fast shoe, I'll sacrifice speed for comfort and stability that keeps me injury free. If the race were tomorrow, I'd run in the GT 2000s.

According to the Triathlete Magazine review (linked below), the Hoka's are more appropriate for Ironman races when your legs are tired right from the start. Based on that review, Hoka is the way to go. Other reviews are mixed. Some reviews warn that the Hoka is not good for heel strikers, which I am. However, the Triathlete magazine review makes that same claim for the Nikes.

I appreciate any thoughts you have.

i ran in the first nike model ever and in the first hoka model ever. and a lot of shoes in between and since. there is a magazine attached to this site, and occasionally we write about things just like this!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 12:44

Post #8 of 40 (7965 views)

You can't compare the two but if you try the Vaporfly win hands down.

Two things about reviews in a mag: Who is advertising/sponsoring the mag and reviews are opinions not fact. There is so much "drama" over the Nike now there is real research on them and its clear that....currently.....the Nike is the best.

However if your foot doesn't fit in them this entire thing is moot and Nike and Hoka fit completely different. My experience/opinion with the Nike is that my legs and feet were markedly less beat up at the end of the race than with any other shoe. I have a narrow foot so the Nike worked fit wise. The toe box on the Hoka is large and my feet raddled around in them.

Last edited by: Scottxs: Nov 14, 19 12:47

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 12:46

Post #9 of 40 (7954 views)

Scottxs wrote:

My experience/opinion with the Nike is that my legs and feet were markedly less beat up at the end of the race than with any other shoe.

Yeah definitely -

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 12:54

Post #10 of 40 (7927 views)

I've been running 30-40 mpw for the last two years without a single running related injury. Did a few test runs in Vaporfly 4% and felt like I was floating -- best feeling shoe ever, nothing else is like it. Like sex without a condom for the first time. Raced a 70.3 in them and by mile 10 the soles of my feet were completely numb. After the race had horrible peroneal and Achilles tendinitis. It hurt to even walk. Took a month of running and am finally getting back into it. It was like gonorrhea, such a let down. I've rationalized it away by telling myself I got injured because I sprained my ankle a few days before the 70.3 so perhaps my form was a bit off. And then ordered the Next% and will race IM in them next season. Hopefully I have better luck this time around as the shoe locks down much better in the heel and across my midfoot.

Last edited by: wintershade: Nov 14, 19 12:54

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 13:21

Post #11 of 40 (7869 views)

I have both. I really like the CarbonX for long training runs and plan to use them at my first full Ironman next year. I'm not a fast runner and fully expect to walk during the marathon. They're just 'smooth' and run lighter than what the scale says.

Having said that, the Vaporfly Next% is the springiest show I've ever run in, by far. But you have to pick up the pace a bit to get that feeling. At your pace, I'd say hands down the Next%, subject to testing them out of course.

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 13:29

Post #12 of 40 (7849 views)

plant_based wrote:

I just tried a new training shoe yesterday (Nike Zoom Fly Flyknit).

https://www.amazon.com/...aps%2C153&sr=8-1

Somehow, I feel faster in these than the Vaporfly 4%'s. The 4%'s seem slightly more unstable. Also, picking up the Zoom Fly FK, they seemed much heavier, but I didn't notice while running. My turnover was good.

I think I found the perfect training shoe either way for $80. I'm hoping they come out with the AlphaFly next year so am holding out for those for a September race. It sounds like it will be a super shoe.

The zoom fly FK (aka zoom fly 2) is an amazing shoe despite being a bit on the heavy side. I tried running with it so many times, but I keep developing pains on the outside of my foot. It would be the perfect training shoe if it wasn't so narrow. Meanwhile, I have no issues with the 4% flyknit (that's supposed to be same shape)
Unfortunately, the Zoom Fly 3 (shaped like the next%) solves the narrow issue, but the sole is not even close. And it is very heavy.

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 14:36

Post #13 of 40 (7767 views)

Scottxs wrote:

You can't compare the two but if you try the Vaporfly win hands down.

Two things about reviews in a mag: Who is advertising/sponsoring the mag and reviews are opinions not fact. There is so much "drama" over the Nike now there is real research on them and its clear that....currently.....the Nike is the best.

However if your foot doesn't fit in them this entire thing is moot and Nike and Hoka fit completely different. My experience/opinion with the Nike is that my legs and feet were markedly less beat up at the end of the race than with any other shoe. I have a narrow foot so the Nike worked fit wise. The toe box on the Hoka is large and my feet raddled around in them.

Yup these are very different shoes, I have both. I could quite happily race a 5km in the 4% but not the Carbon X. They are 30% heavier than the 4%. They still feel light and quick, but I wouldn’t run anything other than a marathon in them. For IM I will race in my 4%s, but the Carbon X would be a good alternative. I guess I’m used to racing in racing flats, so am aversive to racing in heavier shoes, the Carbon X will be good for a lot of people though.

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 15:17

Post #14 of 40 (7731 views)

I trained and raced with both Vaporfly (2 years) and Carbon X (6 months).

Vaporfly is very efficient if you are heel striker and do not need any stability. Personally, it destroyed my posterior tibialis during the first half using them. I still train in them regularly (once a month), short distances, just to justify the huge price. Don't like the massive lack of medial support. And not alone in this case.

Carbon X is very efficient if you are a midfoot striker (it is a Hoka) and appreciate some stability. I ran 2x 70.3 and a half with them, very comfortable and efficient at all paces, no injuries.

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 15:25

Post #15 of 40 (7725 views)

imswimmer328 wrote:

Vaporfly, no competition. I'm sure the Hokas are nice, but they have nothing like the zoomx foam

This. It’s really not all about that carbon plate. The zoom x foam is the magic in this shoe.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 16:48

Post #16 of 40 (7642 views)

So I wear a size 14....they don’t even make the Nike next in size 14. Is my best bet the Hokas?

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [trimac2] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 16:53

Post #17 of 40 (7631 views)

They make a UK 14 /US 15 so you should be fine. Maybe they are just out of stock where you are looking?

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [trimac2] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 16:53

Post #18 of 40 (7629 views)

trimac2 wrote:

So I wear a size 14....they don’t even make the Nike next in size 14. Is my best bet the Hokas?

They make size 14.

For $322, its yours in Pink.

https://stockx.com/...x-vaporfly-next-pink

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]

Nov 14, 19 18:47

Post #19 of 40 (7523 views)

Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

I trained and raced with both Vaporfly (2 years) and Carbon X (6 months).

Vaporfly is very efficient if you are heel strikers.

I don't understand this. I'm a mid/fore-foot striker, when running with the 4%s they were fine, until I got tired and started landing on my heel, but the heel collapses like it's broken and completely inefficient, like if you're a heel striker you can not run in these, period. It actually forced me to land mid-foot as it wasn't possible to run well with the heel hitting the floor first. Maybe they are broken?

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 19 3:02

Post #20 of 40 (7389 views)

You mentione comfort and stability. Carbon X is a very comfortable and stable shoe. Love it.
Next % is comfortable (not so stable) but has magic in it. Love it.

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 19 3:48

Post #21 of 40 (7348 views)

I was refering to my experience and also the initial public study : https://link.springer.com/...07/s40279-017-0811-2
clearly demonstrating that :

1) the 4% gave more improvement to heel striker (because of heel cushion, midfoot cushion being.... mmm... not really different)
2) the 4% make peoples move more on heel strike.... because it authorize it, due to great heel cushion. For me linked to the self adaptation of body, as shown in study below : https://www.frontiersin.org/...spor.2019.00053/full

Then, if you really push too heavy on the heel, you go too far, as it is VERY soft.
Again, this shoe (as most shoes) is not working for everybody.
If you are a stable footed reasonable heel striker, it is great.
For you it does not work, for some reason.
For me it does not work, for some reason.
In fact, it does not work long for many peoples (50%, 70%, don't know). Many peoples are enthusiasts first, then come the injuries. I went that route.

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 19 4:02

Post #22 of 40 (7334 views)

plant_based wrote:

The 4%'s seem slightly more unstable.

I think most people agree the 4% are quite unstable. n+1 I found that they let my heel move around too much especially in a 70.3 where I didn't adjust the laces - a standalone half was better with the laces correctly tightened. The Next% are a lot better in that regard, holding the heel in place more, so definitely worth trying.

Last edited by: ni31mo: Nov 15, 19 4:03

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 19 4:35

Post #23 of 40 (7297 views)

You can also wait for the equivalents coming spring 2020 :

Saucony "Carbon Ward" (no name yet) : carbon plate + Pebax (same as Nike), used by Saucony pro for more than a year now

New Balance FuelCell Racer : carbon plate + soft FuelCell, used by Kienle in Kona and other NB pros for 6 month now

Adidas : several pictures taken on pro, do not know the details, ...

Hopefully, they will be as efficient as the Nike, more stable (not very difficult) and less expensive (not very difficult either).

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 19 6:46

Post #24 of 40 (7200 views)

I just did a short run in the carbon X for the first time yesterday. Very different than any shoe I have used in the past. I have a race coming up but will stick with what I have been training on. Maybe try and work in the Carbon X next year a little at a time.

I'm currently using the Salming D5 (5 mm drop).

The initial feel was that there was a solid block under the rear most arch in my foot. It was solid and felt ok but very different. Then the rolling forward - as the gait continues. Very different. With the curved shape on the bottom I felt like the front of the shoe did not have much foam but its not the case - its just the roll.

Because its cold here I was on an indoor track. I think getting the shoe outside for an extended test might provide different feedback. Interesting shoe.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Re: Hoka Carbon X or Nike Vaporfly? [Changpao] [ In reply to ]

Nov 15, 19 8:54

Post #25 of 40 (7111 views)

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Looking at the range of comments, my conclusion is that there is really only one way to go. I just have to bite the bullet, buy the shoes, and see what works for me. It's not the cheapest option, obviously. I think I'll head down to the Nike Store here in town and try on the Next%. The reviews are so good that I just can't resist starting there. Assuming they feel okay in the store, I'll buy a pair, train in them, and see what I think. Once I have a feel for the Nikes, and my wife has forgiven me for making yet another expensive triathlon related purchase, I'll pick up a pair of the Hokas.

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