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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
go through all the headache for a tue when probably in their case the race director does not even care?

I'm curious to know how hard it is to get an RCTUE, or how many have been granted. I'm a little leery of the argument that it's a "headache" or a great burden on people. Using your example, someone training for an IM has to reorganize their life for many months to get training in. They pay thousands of dollars arranging intricate travel and logistics plans. They buy dozens of pieces of specialized equipment. They set up nutrition and hydration plans. They spent up to thousands of hours practicing skills. Many people purchase the expert advice of coaches, trainers, and...naturopaths.

But suddenly filling out a 4-page form is a massive burden that we couldn't possibly expect people to do. (and that's the TUE form, couldn't find the RCTUE form, which is why I'm curious about it).
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
TriMom95 wrote:
and the other two are women who are low normal for T in their late 40's.


Another term for "low normal" is "normal."

There is no FDA-approved use of testosterone for women.

And there's the irony of a "naturopath" promoting use of powerful pharmaceutical drugs.

Correct. Low testosterone is normal for somebody who isn't a 18 year-old male. This person's friends should also have less antler growth than the average Elk... because they aren't one. People need to get a grip on what's normal for their age and gender if they want to play on a level field.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, after I, like I am sure many others, woukd not bother to fill out a tue form. I am also sure yu would have to take it to a Dr ect….. I have no idea, and I would not bother. I think that is realistic.
Again I do not plan on taking anything. But in my 100 I will be finishing 16 Hours past the winner. I think if someone emailed the race director and told them a finisher in that range may have an illegal substance, the director would probably just delete the email. Think they are going to have me tested?
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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a friend of mine (mid 40's) is on T injections citing he has low Testosterone. I ask him... did he try stop training for 6 months to see if it returns naturally, you have no natural right to be good training at high levels as you get older if your body cannot naturally handle it.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [cantswim24] [ In reply to ]
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So you think someone is going to stop training for 6 months.......now, they do not even have the right to train?
Holy crap, you think that's realistic? All people with banned substances, like hydroxycut for example, now do not even have the right to go out for a run?......
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
I agree its balck and white,but reality is its not going to stop. Example, someone pays what now ? 800 plus for entrance to IM. Then reserves room for week, Te
hey are shooting for a 13hr finish, then someone on their Tri group informs them they are doping. You think its realistic they will drop from the race and lose all that, or go through all the headache for a tue when probably in their case the race director does not even care? ………….then all the people in their tri group will kick them out and call them a doper? I doubt it

You've missed the point.

It's not about what they are going to do, they'll do themselves. It's what are you going to do?

Are you going to just shrug your shoulders and let it go or are you going to take the moral high road call the tip line and/or talk with them about it?

That's the question. You and I aren't here to answer the big global picture. You and I can only do what we can do when we find out someone is doping.

The real question is what are you going to do to clean up your corner?

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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Testosterone is a controlled substance at least in Canada where I practice. I don't think a naturopath could legitimately prescribe it. Who knows what is actually in the pellets naturopaths sometimes practice in some pretty sketchy ways. I would say buyer beware maybe dangerous.

If you take a condition like fatigue which has a lot of psychological components placebo effect is quite high. Placebo effect for sugar pills in anti-depressant trials is from 30-60 percent. So I suspect a fair number of people would feel better no matter what is in the pills. Those that do are likely the ones talking about their treatment. Those that don't less likely to do so

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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Hi TriMom95 - my advice would be to report them and call the hotline posted. 10 ten is close to the podium especially when many IM events do have 5 places. And what if they do improve as a result of taking the pellets. They may decide they do want that coveted Kona spot or take a roll down from a Woman for Tri slot to the 70.3 Worlds. But whether or not they are top 10 or BOP it's still cheating and isn't fair to anyone or the sport. My thought is that if a man or woman feels well enough to compete in these events then I'm suspicious about the need for hormone therapy as a true medical need.

I'll be honest. I'm a 49 yr old woman who now does Ironmans. I certainly have days where I'm tired, feel like shit and don't even want to get out of bed when the alarm goes off. But that's just part of getting older. And it's also part of the long training process. It's normal. If someone feels fatigued and tired ALL the time, then it's time to take a break from triathlon and get their health in order and/or revisit their training process.

Even if these testosterone pellets were legal in triathlon, I would be very hesitant about them and wonder about the long term effects. I'd rather work with a reputable specialist and take a different approach. But that is beside the point here.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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I understand where you are coming from here but do you think MAYBE the guy that came in 99th in that 40 might care? You aren't concerned about your placing so it's no problem to simply disqualify yourself after completing each event, right? I think the better solution is to establish something like the wetsuit rule where above a certain temp you can still wear a wetsuit but aren't eligible for awards. I think it would suck to have to choose between a hobby that I really enjoy and a valid medical treatment that maintains or improves my quality of life. That's a choice I hope I'll never have to make. I primarily race to challenge myself. If the time comes when I need some sort of hormone therapy to improve my day to day life I'd be happy to declare that and still be allowed to enter events but not be eligible for placing or awards.

And you COULDN'T care less ;)


Kenney wrote:
I think this will be an issue that will be getting harder and harder to deal with. I am a 60 year old male. I have had two of three tests for testosterone because its so low. (49 and 45). I have no desire to take anything to boost it. I have no other symptoms. I am signed up for a 100 miler that my goal is 34 hours (36 hour cutoff)…..If for some reason my Dr thinks I need to do some therepy, you really think I am going to go through all the hassle to get a TUE? Especially since temporary? I also have a 40k where I finished I think 98th out of 138.
My point is this, people in this situation will not be going through all the hassle to get a tue., So what do you do with them? I agree its technically doping. I agree it should not be someonethats on the podium. But this issue is going to be coming up more and more...………………...again, I plan on not taking anything in my case. But I could care less if someone else did.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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But if the are unaware and have no motive to cheat, what you going to do?
So the moral high ground is to tell a 15 hr participant is they are a moral cheat?
I have no problem standing for integrity and being clear on rules. I am not sure telling a guy in a local 10k that will finish on 60 minutes that he is a cheat is moral.
Here is a factual case. We have a guy who is in his late 70's that has no tie but partictapates, His 10k time was 88 minutes.
So I have a moral obligation to tell him he is a cheat and have him banned?
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
I think this will be an issue that will be getting harder and harder to deal with. I am a 60 year old male. I have had two of three tests for testosterone because its so low. (49 and 45). I have no desire to take anything to boost it. I have no other symptoms. I am signed up for a 100 miler that my goal is 34 hours (36 hour cutoff)…..If for some reason my Dr thinks I need to do some therepy, you really think I am going to go through all the hassle to get a TUE? Especially since temporary? I also have a 40k where I finished I think 98th out of 138.
My point is this, people in this situation will not be going through all the hassle to get a tue., So what do you do with them? I agree its technically doping. I agree it should not be someonethats on the podium. But this issue is going to be coming up more and more...………………...again, I plan on not taking anything in my case. But I could care less if someone else did.

So if you did take something, would you be upset if someone turned you in.... I think if more people are turned in and now face bans, word will get out and people might get a TUE or not take PEDs.

If you do take something, decide not to get a TUE, get busted, there is no one to blame but yourself.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [velocomp] [ In reply to ]
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If I took something and you turned me in I could care less. If you want to call it cheating, I don't care. The point is this. Everyone here is comparing to kona slots. Or most. But to be consistant the reality is most cannot be controlled for mop,bop. Yes I agree that you turn in a top guy cheating to get a spot. But my above example of the 78 year old doing local 10ks at a walking pace? Its just not realistic to call that in or accuse him. Yes, the best case would be have a different category but that will not be done.
For the guy that asked, "well what if it matters to the guy that finished 100th instead of 99? Well that person has a whole other set of issues. I simply believe in the spirit of the law more than the letter. If you follow the letter, then be consistant, take the license number of everyone speeding on the highway.
This thread is started on testosterone, but doping is any banned substance. I bet at least 10% of every IM field has banned substances that they do not even know about. Hydroxycut was a very popular form of weight loss drug for example. It had DMAA in it, a banned substance.
There comes a point on the reality of thousands of thousands of individuals that are just out to participate that you just cannot properly control
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Then, at least to me, the question to those that know someone who is taking PEDs is what is your moral character? Do you allow stealing to continue or do you do something to potentially stop theft?
If they're MOP or BOP it's not clear to me what they're stealing. I guess they're stealing places - someone who is behind them could move up a place. Perhaps 40th becomes 39th, 41st becomes 40th, etc. I guess that's a lot of theft? Whatever.


http://www.jt10000.com/
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
Here is a factual case. We have a guy who is in his late 70's that has no tie but partictapates, His 10k time was 88 minutes.
So I have a moral obligation to tell him he is a cheat and have him banned?

Ultimately you need to decide where you stand. For right or wrong.

It's pretty clear from your posts you don't really care about doing the right thing in sport in this regard and that's your prerogative.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Kenney wrote:

Here is a factual case. We have a guy who is in his late 70's that has no tie but partictapates, His 10k time was 88 minutes.
So I have a moral obligation to tell him he is a cheat and have him banned?


Ultimately you need to decide where you stand. For right or wrong.

It's pretty clear from your posts you don't really care about doing the right thing in sport in this regard and that's your prerogative.

Agreed. There are not varying degrees of cheating. It IS black or white.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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IGNORE the below. I stand corrected (read below to see the correcting). I do not want misinformation on here.

Also, if I get tested they will just think I live a rockstar lifestyle and have too much money. NOTHING I can enhances my performance in any area of life haha oops



Thomas Gerlach wrote:


Regardless of when they took them that doesn't mean they haven't cheated. Enhancements to fitness and endurance have a lasting effect. You can't just take a substance that it is banned inside competition and compete clean. Well you can, but you are still cheating. Maybe they won't get an OOC test but that doesn't excuse their behavior.


If it brings them to a normal range of T it isnt cheating. It is playing not at a disadvantage.

Now I have to disagree. The laws only say that it is illegal to race or compete while using PEDs. Nowhere does it say it is illegal to train on PEDs. Is it morally ethical? eh depends on what your morals are. I don't want man tits or other side effects so I will stick to light beer as my PED haha
Last edited by: Twinkie: May 22, 19 13:33
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Nowhere does it say it is illegal to train on PEDs. //

Only if you later race, or plan to race..However it might be illegal(as In the general law) to be taking some drugs like a lot of people do here, without prescriptions from proper docs...
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:


Regardless of when they took them that doesn't mean they haven't cheated. Enhancements to fitness and endurance have a lasting effect. You can't just take a substance that it is banned inside competition and compete clean. Well you can, but you are still cheating. Maybe they won't get an OOC test but that doesn't excuse their behavior.


If it brings them to a normal range of T it isnt cheating. It is playing not at a disadvantage.

Now I have to disagree. The laws only say that it is illegal to race or compete while using PEDs. Nowhere does it say it is illegal to train on PEDs. Is it morally ethical? eh depends on what your morals are. I don't want man tits or other side effects so I will stick to light beer as my PED haha

Then explain to me why there is out of competition testing?


"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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You I have always had a lot of respect for you on this forum. I am glad to see you can make a moral judgement about myself and my life.
Again, I said spirit of the law not letter.
Have you seen someone helped the last half mile of an IM at close to midnight? I am sure you have. Did you then asked for them to be disqualified?
Yes I agree on those competing for spots to be reported.
No, I do not agree that I should report in 70 year olds to be forbidden from sport trying to keep their lifestyle because they did not get a TUE to satisfy you.
Have you reported every drafter at every race you spectated?
I am signing off. Have a good day sir
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [TriMom95] [ In reply to ]
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Low testosterone in men as defined by the American Urological Association and Endocrine Society is <300 ng/dL (https://www.auanet.org/...deficiency-guideline, https://academic.oup.com/...e/103/5/1715/4939465). It's estimated about 1/3 of men using testosterone supplementation don't meet the clinical criteria. For women, the normal range is 15-70 ng/dL.

I highly doubt a naturopath is following any sort of clinical guidelines. Not to mention if they've had any sort of lab work to see what their real levels are. I've had plenty of conversations with other 40+ male athletes trying to justify using testosterone supplementation because they were below 500 ng/dL. Um, yeah, sure dude...you look more cut then guys in their 20s. You SO have hypogonadism.

As stated above, if this athletes were truly in the range of high finishes, etc., reporting them to tip lines, etc. would seem valid to me. I automatically assume some of the people I race against are "juiced" even if they aren't anywhere near a podium. All I know is that I'm racing clean...wait, I do drink Dt. Mt. Dew...is that legal?

"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
The laws only say that it is illegal to race or compete while using PEDs. Nowhere does it say it is illegal to train on PEDs.



WHOA. No one listen to Twinkie. This is an obfuscation that needs to be killed outright. And, Twinkie, you need some serious education. There is a whole range of PEDs that are banned in and out of competition. Screenshot below for clarity. Could "at all times" not be more clear? If you click on the top section, you'll eventually find testosterone, the substance in question on this thread.

Edit: And by "law" I'm assuming we mean "anti-doping rule" and by "illegal" we mean "banned by WADA and its satellites."






Last edited by: trail: May 22, 19 12:24
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:


Regardless of when they took them that doesn't mean they haven't cheated. Enhancements to fitness and endurance have a lasting effect. You can't just take a substance that it is banned inside competition and compete clean. Well you can, but you are still cheating. Maybe they won't get an OOC test but that doesn't excuse their behavior.


If it brings them to a normal range of T it isnt cheating. It is playing not at a disadvantage.

Now I have to disagree. The laws only say that it is illegal to race or compete while using PEDs. Nowhere does it say it is illegal to train on PEDs. Is it morally ethical? eh depends on what your morals are. I don't want man tits or other side effects so I will stick to light beer as my PED haha

Serious mental gymnastics going on here. It is cheating plain and simple. Look at the rules. Banned at all times. Not only that, but gains you make by taking PEDs stay with you in large parts.
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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I've always felt cheating was black and white. Drafting or using PED's regardless of your motivation or lack of education is cheating. Everyone should be caught and the appropriate sanctions given. The same rules apply to every athlete who signs up and competes regardless of finishing time and the rules apply in and out of competition. I have called the USADA hotline for athletes I suspect are using and are knocking on top finishing places. That has always been my stance.

These recent interactions with people I know using these pellets prescribed by naturopaths, which I'm not a fan of, has blurred some lines that have always been very clear.

As per my original post:
- I sent the article on the risks associated with testosterone supplementation posted in this thread to 2 of the people on my "list". One said thank you, and is not competing at this time but wants to in the future. The other has not used pellets for a few years and he was one of the top 10 athletes.
- The other top 10 finisher is not competing this year. In the future if she does compete again I will likely call USADA but only after I talk to her.
- The one who is ill and wants to race this year has me the most conflicted. I told him its against the rules to train and race with T supplementation. He appreciated the information and truly had no idea. He is healthy now with whatever he's doing though, and to take that away if he wants to race has created that blurry line of right vs wrong for me. He won't podium but he will beat others in the race. He's also healthy for the first time in a few years and excited to test himself.

For the first time ever I'm seeing merit to the idea of having two categories of athletes in our sport like they do in weight lifting. You self declare your intentions when you register and you are identified in results as being recreational or competitive and those two categories are clearly defined. Should the 75 year old finishing a 10k in 88 min be called out for hormone replacement? I don't really think he/ she should. Then again, maybe he's beating another 75 year old who is not using PED's. Our hormones change as we age. That's why we have age group racing. I can't compete against someone 20 years younger than me. (Or most can't.) And hormones are a part of that.

I have learned a lot from the comments above. It is wrong to use PED's no matter what, but I've softened a bit as to who the rules really matter for.
Last edited by: TriMom95: May 22, 19 13:12
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Re: Testosterone Pellets [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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The rules are black and white. Realisticlly trying to enforce is a complete other issue. As my previous example, where I was told I do not have respect for sport. We have a 78 year old man who I know is on a banned substance for health, who did a large sanctioned 10k. He made his goal of under 90 minutes. Should he be banned and told he should not participate because he did not go through the protocol for a TUE? He could. If you really follow th letter of the law, he should never ever be allowed to do a 5k or 10k again. Is this realistic. Is it fair? I guess it is if universally enforced.
There is a huge difference it what is happening today in participation and racing for spots. There are two options. Universally kick out Everyone, no matter age, handicap whatever that does not go through proper protocol. Or realize there is a grey area on enforcement.
I was told, I do not know how true, that there was a 10k I cheated because I received cortisone shots in my knees do to injury 5 months previous. Trying Synvisc in my joints now. I guess should never participate in an event again.
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