You are completely wrong. I "paid" for my college with student loans which took me at least 10 years to pay off. I was a student athletic trainer in undergrad and had to "work" to get hours and then had a Grad. Assistant position in grad school but that pretty much paid for tuition and beer.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

There are two sides to every transaction. The real issue, is that in an open and fair market, where loans were made and held by private lenders, there would be nowhere near the amount of student debt that exists today. I would guess about 70% of the loans would not be approved because they are high risk or they would only be offered at high rates (reflecting the risk) and then wouldn't be taken. Instead, since the government actually owns all the debt (yes the loans are originated by private lenders in many cases, but the government agrees to buy them), there is no accountability (except actually all of us taxpayers are on the hook). Likewise, without this bubble of student loan liquidity, education costs would not be spiraling out of control to the extent they are.

So I would counter your point, with the government is being horrifically irresponsible with guaranteeing almost every student loan, regardless of the major, the caliber of the student or the likelihood they will be paid off. I expect 18 year old kids, especially ones that come from low-income backgrounds to potentially be financially irresponsible (because what do they or their families really know about money). However, I would expect a government run by adults to know better.

As far as the original point, I applaud this guy for doing this. He just changed the lives of upwards of several hundred young people, in a positive way. I also think this creates a certain fellowship among the beneficiaries and I hope they go onto to do great things using this push forward as a springboard. I also don't see any moral hazard here. This happened one time, at one university, I don't think going forward anyone would reasonably expect they should load up on loans because of a 1 in a million chance someone agrees to cover all you debt at the end.

I do not disagree with the point I highlighted. Not at all. But, it isn't a "counter" to the point I made.

As to the "moral hazard," some of you completely missing the point. Rewarding irresponsibility is a bad position to take, regardless of whether it encourages others to engage in the same behavior. If this guy praised Hitler, it would not encourage others to become Hitler. But, it would still be a bad position to take.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

No good deed (which this is) goes unpunished (or bitched about in this case). The man did a good deed and made a sincere effort to assist people. And all some of you can do is Whataboutism because it didn't line up with what you (in theory only) would have done if you were him. You aren't. You didn't. You haven't.

Out of curiosity what does a basic 4 year degree cost at an “OK” university or college?

Not taking high end or law etc but things like Nursing/accounting/physio/engineering etc, IE the degrees that get you a decent job right away.

With these does it really matter all that much where you go? IE is inflated price at a high end school really worth it for job degrees?

I understand Harvard law or Harvard MBA....Harvard nurse etc I don’t really get.

Maurice

My daughter goes to Texas A&M. Normal degree path. At least at there, no kid gets out in 4 years, so it usually takes 5 years.

Their published annual cost of attendance (2 semesters) is around $28K. That's includes room/board/food/entertainment. It's an all-in number. You can do it for less or will cost you more, mainly depending on how expensive a place you choose to live, if you join a sorority/fraternity, etc...

It's actually costing us around $25K/yr. So it will end up costing about $125K in Total for her education/degree.

It is especially annoying because my daughter knocked out a bunch of college credits in HS Honors classes and at the community college, while she was still in HS. Basically had a years worth of credits going in. Unfortunately, at least for Texas A&M, none of those really translated. At best, they counted for her electives, which Texas A&M curriculums have very little room.. None were taken in lieu of basic freshman courses...english, math, science. So in the end, it was basically a waste getting all those college credits.

Universities are still fighting hard on weaving community college credits and on-line courses/books. They don't want to let go of their $$ income. This is one of the major things that needs to change with them to make the cost of getting a degree more affordable.

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This was a de facto endowment in which some students benefited. Nothing more, nothing less. He knows some, and possibly many of these loans may never be repaid.

Really? Mine did. Both with degrees in science. I know many students who have graduated A&M in 4 years. But I do agree that they are trying to protect their turf in general.

How many years ago? My daughter's former fiance got out of Wisconsin with a computer engineering degree in 4 years, but, that was 10 years ago. Back then, it was very difficult to get out in 4. Now, it is nearly impossible. They intentionally schedule the classes to make it nearly impossible to get the classes you need when you need them.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

No good deed (which this is) goes unpunished (or bitched about in this case). The man did a good deed and made a sincere effort to assist people. And all some of you can do is Whataboutism because it didn't line up with what you (in theory only) would have done if you were him. You aren't. You didn't. You haven't. //

No kidding. This is why Bill Gates and Warren Buffett and other billionaires give there money to Gates foundation. I think Bill had a few flubs early on, and then realized that you have yo pay folks that do this everyday, and can think about how well and responsibly their billions are being spent. Nothing worse for these guys than to give away so much money, thinking they are doing the best thing with it, and then getting so much backlash on the details. I'm guessing this guy didnt think about all the negative ramifications of this gift, and just though it was all good when he got up there and made it rain for the kids.


Maybe he should give the next give to Gates foundation, or not. Billionaires can do whatever they want, but I bet they dont like to be trashed in the media. How long before we see parents on the news who took out all those loans on their own, or like others have said, kids that did it on their own, telling their sad stories..

For instate tuition at most universities you are looking at around 16-20g right off the bat. That includes room + board. Then there are additional "fees" that will typically be around 2-5G. On top of that you are looking at around 2g-5g a year on books. Then you have your partying/leisure activity expenses ($20 bucks-->100 week).

So you are looking at around roughly 20-25g a year for instate tuition at most places.

I should clarify, i was exaggerating a bit...some kids get out in 4-ish years, but my understanding is most don't...its 5 years. Those that get out in 4 will usually do summer semesters and are more successful at getting college credits applied toward their degree plan from HS and Jr College.

My daughter is in Engineering school. To JSA's point, and mine earlier along the same lines, Universities are doing all they can to money grab to make it difficult to get classes, difficult to do on-line courses, difficult to do basic classes at Jr Colleges, etc... to draw out the time spent at the University as long as possible.

It is an archaic broken system. I am now a jaded parent when it comes to the University system. I have a ton of stories and issues that I'm not listing here. It is not what it was 30 years ago when I went through.

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My kid just finished first year engineering at the University of Calgary. About 6k Canadian for tuition, a bit less than 1k for books, and the full-ride residence (room and board) would have been about 8k on top. If you’re diligent you can do your undergraduate engineering courses in four school years but many will take a 16 month internship, which pushes things out to five years.

Out of province and international students do pay more... but (for OOP at least) it’s still not up where you all are at.

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Less is more.

Rule #1. Life ain't fair.
Rule #2. See Rule #1

Or as Judge Smails once said

Sometimes I feel they should change the motto from America The Land of The Free to America What’s in it for ME?

It would be pretty easy and it already rhymes.

I think if more people would act in positive ways like this rather than having to find the exact perfect solution the world would be a better place.

Perhaps you could pay off some parent plus loans if you feel that is a good use of money.

I think this is awesome and I hope others follow his lead. It will in no way change my 529 plans though.

I think part of that is due to the Canada Student Loans Act. It limits the amount available for loans (as well as ensuring interest free status for the duration of studies). I would assume this would somewhat limit tuition fee increases. If I remember correctly, I believe I was paying ~ 4k tuition and books when I took engineering at UVic 20 years ago.

I had no trouble getting a loan, but the amount did not meet my govenment accessed need. They looked at things like value of my car, savings, etc. In other words, they said I need 10k/ yr, here's a loan for 8k (made up numbers).

Also, I ended up meeting the criteria for provincial loan remittance (~ 1/2 of loan amount), saved 1/4 in the post-grad interest free period, and my Dad gifted me the remaining 1/4. So one year post-grad, I was debt free.

I'm still a couple years away from kids in post secondary, but glad they won't be saddled with unreasonable debt.

Did you actually READ any article on this or are you just making shit up out of your ass? They have not finalized any details.

https://www.nytimes.com/...amp;section=whatElse

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

U Waterloo CS is currently 15-17k Canadian a year for tuition. Room in village 1 on campus is 8k a year. Meal plan is 5k a year. Total 28 to 30k a year.

UT Austin CS is 12k a year tuition, 12- 14k for room and board and another couple k for books. Total 25 to 28k a year. A&M engineering is roughly the same about 28 to 30k a year.

That's crazy for Waterloo. I just checked UBC computer science, $6500 tuition and student fees.

Our son was out in 4. Ocean Engineering TAMU College Station. Yes he had a few “other” credits from HS. He did a couple of summer Semesters.

So while the number of semesters was more than a four year plan, we only paid out for four years of living expenses.

I agree with the $120-130k range for Texas universities.

Someone asked what I was getting him for graduation, I said “nothing, No debt”

Room and board at UVic is a lot cheaper too, just 11k for 2019/20 total is around 18k a year then. Much cheaper than UW.

I had a quick look at Waterloo tuitions. Computer science, engineering, and similar have significantly higher tuitions. The rest of the undergrads seem in line with other Canadian universities. Waterloo has an excellent reputation and guess they can command a higher tuition.

There will always be some outliers, like Waterloo, McGill and probably others that charge a premium. But for the most part, Canadian tuitions are significantly less expensive that American tuitions (1/2 to 1/3 from the reports/stories I've read). I think the restrictive student loans would be part of that reason.

So you have personal knowledge that all (or most) of the loans taken in this case were irresponsible? Borrowing money to pay for education is not inherently bad or irresponsible. It's all situational, how much borrowed, what major, etc. None of us know the specifics in this case, but I won't disagree that the total amount of debt being discussed here does seem large. You can call it missing the point, I will just say I disagree and you don't have any hard facts to really back up your position (nor do I).

(this is not directed at you specifically, it is my general perception of most of the comments on this thread) I consider myself a cynical person, who has a lot of issues with how student loans work in the US, but even I am a little surprised at how hard people are trying to find the worst in this story or critique this philanthropy.

Hopefully no one here (or their children) ever gets this lucky. I'd be afraid at the trauma it might cause and all the trouble it would put everyone through to give the money back and explain how this generosity was misguided;)

I agree it's situational. The only site with data I could find was here which gives about $27K average debt. With a class of 379 that's probably where the oft-reported baseline $10M estimate probably comes from. But that might not encompass the full range of the types of debt, which is maybe why the estimates range up to $40M.

But the same site reports the average salary of ~$48K at the 10 year mark. That doesn't look that bad to me for the average/median student. The extra wage power vs. someone with only a HS diploma is more than enough to intelligently pay off the $27K over time (for the median student). It could be that public college or trade school might have been a smarter choice for some, but that's situational. Some people might become billionaires and $100K isn't worth their time to bend over and pick up. Some might work the fry vat.

I was curious about “general” state college in the US for example say you have a kid who is 18, pretty smart and wants to be a nurse.

Basically they are done in 4 years and at 22 are making minimum 75k$ year...from there with that degree you can stay on the floor or get to “maybe” peak 150$k per year by mid 30’s at high level admin. Keep in mind all of the pension and other high level benefits.

For general degrees does it really matter where you go? Does anyone care if their nurse is MIT or Harvard trained?

Also is living on res a “thing” after first year? I am more of a trades guy but spent a lot of weekends at Queens and Western when I was 18-20 visiting friends. They all left residence after 1 year. Same with my nieces, one is at UVIC and the other at McGill. My one niece works summers at BC ferries and lives at home during the summer.

Maurice