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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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The goods that China will/may tariff are net-sum-zero in nature. Tariff U.S oil? Fine, China will buy somebody else's supply and that somebody else will U.S oil. Same goes for most ag commodities but the hitch with ag commodities is that there's a 1-2 year lag for supplier rotation. This works through drawing down on domestic ag inventories. E.g. let's say that China has 1,000,000 bushels of soy in storage and they normally buy 1,000,000 bushels of soy per year from the U.S. China says "screw you U.S." and buys soy from Brazil instead. However they won't buy 1,000,000 bushels because there won't be that much excess supply available. China might buy 400,000 bushels from Brazil, 200,000 bushels from the U.S, and draw down their own inventories by 400,000 bushels. The next year, China outbids the Philippines or Indonesia for the soy from Brazil which forces the Philippines or Indonesia to buy their Soy from the U.S. (presumably at a lower price than the Brazilian soy) but, again, this isn't all done in a lump some, there will be a draw down in their own inventories.

After 2-3 years, the trading patterns reconfigure themselves and importing countries begin rebuilding their inventories.

The problem here in the U.S. is that it's the straw that broke the U.S. Agricultural Camel's back and that camel was well down the road heading toward the oasis of the never-ending commodity super cycle (don't worry, a bunch of people followed the U.S. down that same road). The operating environment for decades has been toward consolidation and "mega-farms" for lack of a better word. Then came the proto-monopolies of Potash, Monsanto, and John Deere. The final stake in the coffin came with the last round of land acquisitions circa 2011 where $10,000/acre became the norm for land in places like Iowa and Indiana (which is CRAZY expensive). So even though the U.S. boasts some of the best croplands and *THE* lowest transportation costs in the world, farmers managed to back themselves into a corner on cost structure right as it became apparent that demand wouldn't grow forever. China's retaliatory tariffs kind of just brought this to a head quicker than it otherwise would have.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
windywave wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
I can't understand why investors are concerned. I mean China is paying billions in tariffs to the US, amIrite? Stocks should be up bigly.


Or the tariffs don't take effect until June. If you're going to be chicken little at least be accurate.


I'm just quoting Trump. Are you saying China isn't paying billions in tariffs?


I'm saying no one is paying tariffs yet

You might want to do some research.... (wow)
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
windywave wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
windywave wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
I can't understand why investors are concerned. I mean China is paying billions in tariffs to the US, amIrite? Stocks should be up bigly.


Or the tariffs don't take effect until June. If you're going to be chicken little at least be accurate.


I'm just quoting Trump. Are you saying China isn't paying billions in tariffs?


I'm saying no one is paying tariffs yet

You might want to do some research.... (wow)

The proposed tariffs don't hit to June 1... if you are talking just tariff in general then yes there are some in place.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
The only thing that's for sure is that we, the average American, are going to lose. Our portfolios got a 3% haircut today. Loss. If and when the tariffs go into effect, we pay those as increased cost of goods. Loss. I don't know, I think the whole thing is lose-lose. Nobody has blinked yet, and we have to hope one of them does.

US importers have already been paying tariffs on Chinese goods (at 10% on about USD250bn worth of Chinese goods - USD50bn since last July/August, and USD200bn since 24 September 2018). These are being raised to 25% on 1 June. In addition, Trump is threatening to impose 25% tariffs on the remaining USD300bn worth of Chinese goods imported by US firms.

So far, the goods targeted are higher up the supply chain, in order to lessen the effect on US consumers. But 25% tariffs on those goods would have a deeper effect, and according to Bloomberg Economics, would knock 0.9ppts off US GDP. Further, if Trump applied 25% tariffs to all Chinese goods imported to the US, they estimate it would knock 1.5 ppts off US GDP growth.

US farmers are already feeling the retaliatory effects by China. China has diverted much of their buying to Brazil and other sources, and soy prices fell dramatically because of all the excess US supply on the market. Soy prices collapsed from 1050 to 850 last summer, and in the past month have fallen sharply again from 900 to 790. Hence why Trump is now tweeting about buying US agricultural goods with the tariffs (that US companies are actually paying), and then shipping the products to poor countries as humanitarian aid. It's a desperate attempt to win support from the farmers.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
windywave wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
windywave wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
I can't understand why investors are concerned. I mean China is paying billions in tariffs to the US, amIrite? Stocks should be up bigly.


Or the tariffs don't take effect until June. If you're going to be chicken little at least be accurate.


I'm just quoting Trump. Are you saying China isn't paying billions in tariffs?


I'm saying no one is paying tariffs yet


You might want to do some research.... (wow)


The proposed tariffs don't hit to June 1... if you are talking just tariff in general then yes there are some in place.

No, I'm talking about the tariffs Trump has already imposed on Chinese goods imported to the US at 10%, which will go up to 25% on 1 June. See above post.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry I thought it was implied I meant the new tariffs. But yes, good analysis.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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The price of agricultural land in the midwest soared north of $10,000/acre circa 2011-2012. Farmers anchored their expectations around that time when a "perfect storm" created a global supply shortage. As such, farmers right now still have their expectations anchored in that time frame. It's a pretty common cognitive mistake to make regardless of the product, asset, or line of work.


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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Something I don’t get is what is the end goal for trump? Vs end goal for China?

Trump I think can potentially win his trade war but that will have to come after he wins re-election. But what even is winning the trade war. Returning to what was previously in place with potentially minor concessions on China’s part, which could have been taken care of with other trade deals.

China doesn’t seem to have to do much for the next two years. Because if trump loses, the next president can just renegotiate.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [patentattorney] [ In reply to ]
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As someone already said, I don't think anyone "wins" this trade war. Someone might lose less badly, but nobody is going to win.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [patentattorney] [ In reply to ]
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patentattorney wrote:
Something I don’t get is what is the end goal for trump? Vs end goal for China?

Trump I think can potentially win his trade war but that will have to come after he wins re-election. But what even is winning the trade war. Returning to what was previously in place with potentially minor concessions on China’s part, which could have been taken care of with other trade deals.

China doesn’t seem to have to do much for the next two years. Because if trump loses, the next president can just renegotiate.

Trump is the vessel but at the end of the day this is national security policy. China f**ked the U.S. good and hard on trade for years and nobody said a word. What changed? China started mass producing nuclear submarines, started developing aircraft carriers and other means of force projection, and literally announced that it wanted to become *the* global hegemony.

China is now a radioactive political hot potato in the U.S. It doesn’t matter who or what party sits in office. Truth be told, a deal might be less likely with a Democrat in office because of the issue of 1,000,000+ minority Muslims in concentra.... ahem... “re-education” camps. A Democrat wouldn’t be able to make a deal without addressing that issue and China would see that as an intrusion into domestic affairs.

Victory for the U.S. is to decouple from China, spark a massive wave of corporate bankruptcies in China (they have an internal dollar funding crisis), and pivot manufacturing away from China to SE Asia and Mexico. A pivot of manufacturing away from China to SE Asia will act to “contain” China by simultaneously depriving China of income, enriching said SE Asian nations, and improving relations between said SE Asian nations and the U.S. That last point is key. So long as the U.S. has a significant military presence in SE Asia China will not be capable of projecting force abroad.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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I know very little about trade arrangements. But wasnt the TPP supposed to curtail china (while boosting japan/SE asia)?
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [patentattorney] [ In reply to ]
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patentattorney wrote:
I know very little about trade arrangements. But wasnt the TPP supposed to curtail china (while boosting japan/SE asia)?

That was the original goal but we lost control of TPP pretty quickly and, frankly, it morphed into a monster that would have required the U.S. to give up sovereignty on a host of issues. From the perspective of the U.S, unilateral trade deals are most advantageous and, frankly, it’s probably the best way to actually get deals done.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:


Dear Mr. President...

Wow! Therein the source of all our ills. 175 footwear manufacturers. Or more accurately foot wear branders.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [gofigure] [ In reply to ]
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Well it's just one consumer products industry that would be impacted if 25% tariffs were applied to the remaining USD300bn worth of imported goods from China. Not to say it would be a disaster for the US economy, but it would certainly negatively impact US growth in a more meaningful way than the current tariffs are.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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sorry should have pinked it. Continuing in pink, Glad to see my Buster Brown's and Tom Mcann's were not on the list. I did note my old Chuck's Converse brand made it as well as my Sperry topsiders.

Trade wars are a bitch! But then I am just not buying much shit so I am not quite feeling it.

Guess we could have a resurgence in the cobbler industry. Hard to outsource that.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [gofigure] [ In reply to ]
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gofigure wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


Dear Mr. President...


Wow! Therein the source of all our ills. 175 footwear manufacturers. Or more accurately foot wear branders.

so now we're barefoot and pregnant
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:


Dear Mr. President...

Don't have time to dig it up as I'm at a conference but I posted a chart a few days ago that showed the top 10 export categories from China and the top 10 export categories from Mexico and the change in the absolute value of those categories over time. I *think* that footwear would fall under the broader category of "apparel" which has been about flat from China for the last five or six years but growth of "apparel" imports from Mexico has absolutely exploded over the same period of time.

Will consumers pay some of the tariff? Yes. All 25%? Hell no. In product categories where Chinese producers face competition from abroad (Mexico is a prime example because of proximity, preferential access, and labor costs) the manufacturers will have to absorb a good chunk of the tariffs or face a loss of market share. You also have to remember that in an given product category it's extremely rare for China to completely dominate the category as a source of production or completely dominate the value chain (that is to say China looms large but they're not the whole market). tl;dr;dwt: a 25% tariff isn't going to lead to a 25% increase in prices or necessarily a permanent price increase.

Most of these apparel "branders" are bitching because they know that they might have to choose a market, U.S. or China, rather than have access to both. Most of these "branders" should have seen the writing on the wall in 2013 when a quarrel between Japan and China over the Senkaku islands flared up and Japanese companies had to decamp manufacturing en-mass from China. If you were the CEO/COO/etc. of a company like Adidas and you didn't notice that incident and act accordingly to diversify your supply chain (especially considering the labor price pressures were already there)... well, that's really poor leadership.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Don’t disagree, and imports from China represent only a small portion of the US economy. But if Trump imposes 25% tariffs on the remaining USD300bn worth of goods from China not currently tariffed (which include a lot more consumer goods), it will have a not insignificant effect on the US economy. I’ve seen estimates starting at 0.3ppts of GDP (on top of the effects of the existing tariffs).
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Eh... don't put too much weight in those estimates. In many cases those are my piers making the estimates. I know how they think and I know how their models are built :)

Somewhere in the 0.25-0.5% of GDP is probably a reasonable estimate. Anyone calling for >0.5% (and I even saw one estimate calling for 1.5%) of GDP is biasing and loading their models intentionally. Also, let's be honest: measuring something like GDP is a bit of a crapshoot. The BLS et al do a pretty good job of being consistent with their methodology and objective when they update it but the idea that we can actually measure the economy with that sort of precision is kind of absurd and I think that's where things get misleading. We're not talking about a fuel gauge or a speedometer or interferometer here. GDP is an estimate and first revisions are commonly in the 0.5% range and then third revisions sometimes bring the total revision to 0.75% or more (IIRC I've seen as high as 1.75% for a quarter).

...so what we are measuring is noisy. The likely impact of the tariffs on the entire economy of the U.S. is well within our error of measurement. Which isn't to say there isn't an impact but it is rather small and three years from now we might not be able to actually say we can see a clear a definitive effect in the data. Not quite on point but relevant: the problem everyone knows about economic models is that they cannot predict the future. The problem not everyone knows about economic models is that they cannot predict the past.

As an aside, many domestic services have seen inflation rates far above the inflation rates for finished goods (foreign or domestic.... and aside to the aside: for a long time our primary import from China was, basically, deflation). If people want to get pissed off about inflation they should be pissed about the cost of medical care or education which are about as far removed from the Chinese tariffs as one could get.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:


Dear Mr. President...

This is a total joke for a category that is tremendously overpriced to begin with. How many of us (ex Triathletes) remember 10 years ago when we could get running shoes for $70 and last years model for $40. Now those same shoes (think Gel Kayano) are $120 for last years model and $150 for the current model. Shoe companies are a joke and a rip off. They make the shoes in China for next to nothing and charge way too much.

I hope they feel the pain that I feel every time I need new shoes.... (Can you tell that I think they already have the necessary margins to absorb this.....
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Post deleted by spudone [ In reply to ]
Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
velocomp wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:


Dear Mr. President...


This is a total joke for a category that is tremendously overpriced to begin with. How many of us (ex Triathletes) remember 10 years ago when we could get running shoes for $70 and last years model for $40. Now those same shoes (think Gel Kayano) are $120 for last years model and $150 for the current model. Shoe companies are a joke and a rip off. They make the shoes in China for next to nothing and charge way too much.

I hope they feel the pain that I feel every time I need new shoes.... (Can you tell that I think they already have the necessary margins to absorb this.....

They will just pass those margins on to the consumers. Er well, Nike is already ahead of the rest with the Vaporfly 4%...

They may try, but the fact is they are complaining because they know they will lose business and customers if they jack up the prices anymore. They are already at a tipping point. As mentioned they are getting great margins right now. So they only ones that would really feel the pain are the stockholders.
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Re: Look for a choppy market tomorrow [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Was this the moment US-China trade talks fell apart?

(Open link in a private window to see full story)

https://www.scmp.com/...ade-talks-fell-apart

Whatever the truth of who is to blame, it doesn't bode well for a swift end to the stand off.

EU is also resisting any efforts to limit auto imports to the US. Can't see a deal there in the next six months.
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