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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
BarryP wrote:
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If abortion was as available in 1970 as it is today I would not exist. This I know for a fact, straight from the source.



Also wanted to add that there are a lot of people who would exist otherwise if contraception was banned, or if people weren't such prudes about sex before marriage.

Hell, just changing interracial marriage laws leads to a whole lot of people who would have existed who never did, and a whole other group of people alive today who would never have existed.

Life is funny like that.


Thanks for sharing. This post gives great insight into your psyche.

What??? Barry points out that contraception changes whether folks would be around or not. There are plenty of folks who have exactly that viewpoint and specifically lump all contraception into the abortion debate and oppose it for that reason. That's just a fact, which he is pointing out. Do you have a problem with it? Your post says nothing about BarryP or anyone (it is a petty attack with no other content), but "gives great insight into your psyche." Perhaps BarryP just triggers you....
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
This has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with intellectual honesty in acknowledging abortion terminates life. The debate is over when that is acceptable. Simple question you skipped over.... when does this set of living cells that aren't human life in your opinion morph into "human life" in your opinion.

everybody on your side of this says the issue has nothing to do with religion.

at least one of us holds a degree in biology. so let's use that education. as you put it, dig into the DNA of a zygote. it's human DNA. so is the DNA in every cell in a human's body, including the skin cells we slough off every day. i hope we've dispensed with this argument.

as to when a zygote becomes a human, here's what we know: a zygote is not as sentient as you or i. ascribing full rights to a zygote is a religious decision. but ascribing zero rights to a fetus that's full term is also problematic. so, we pick a point in the middle, based on science, based on reason, we choose a reasonable accommodation that makes half our society happy, and angers the one-fourth that sit on either extreme end.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Garry] [ In reply to ]
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You are changing what AndrewMc said, here it is: "I'm not sure what the answer is. I have a serious problem with men telling women what they can do with their bodies." He spoke of control, you twice rephrase it to the phrase "hold an opinion" and then sloppily conjoin it with "... or have any say". They are different. Anyone can have an opinion, in fact the LR is pretty much old male triathletes having endless opinions on matters that don't impact them. You are modifying his original statement. It remains, that overwhelmingly men are voting to control women's reproductive choices (as pointed out, many women support limiting other women's choices).



Garry wrote:
oldandslow wrote:
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so does that mean you don't support Roe vs Wade since the court was all male?


A big swing and a miss. Roe v. Wade expanded the freedom for women to have control over their body. It didn't mandate abortions in any manner. Try again....


Not to me, what the question was pertaining to, is the idea that men should have no opinions or any say on abortions. I find it odd when people say that or believe it, when it was a group of men's opinions that decided what a women could do with their bodies. So you can't say that men are unable to hold an opinion or make a law when it disagrees with you, but it's ok if they agree with you-
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
windywave wrote:
This has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with intellectual honesty in acknowledging abortion terminates life. The debate is over when that is acceptable. Simple question you skipped over.... when does this set of living cells that aren't human life in your opinion morph into "human life" in your opinion.


so, we pick a point in the middle, based on science, based on reason, we choose a reasonable accommodation that makes half our society happy, and angers the one-fourth that sit on either extreme end.


so you in essence split the baby.

What about science says we as a society of empathetic, caring, individuals can't determine destroying the combination of living cells that will grow into a full formed human in nine months with no outside intervention is a bad thing, a thing we don't ever want to happen and put in place significant restrictions to allowing it to happen?

It's an easy cop out to say, "you're only against abortion because of religion" How about a thoughtful humanist who values life in our society and has come to the conclusion that as a society we shouldn't destroy potential life and after a certain time it is absolutely destroying human life. Those 3D sonograms at 20 weeks are darn cool and you can see the baby's eyes, feet, toes, nose etc. For someone to look at one of those and say its not a baby is flat out laughable.

We as society decided gladiator games are no longer acceptable ( too barbaric)
We as society decided no more burning folks at the stake.

It doesn't require adherence to a religion to be a good person, see value in life and have empathy for the unborn. you make the argument Christians make against atheists..." how can you be a good person without god?" How could you possibly be for protecting the unborn unless its based on religion. Well, you just can.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am not religious. I believe that a zygote is a human life.

Religion has nothing to do with it whatsoever for me so your claim that it's always about religion is false.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
I am not religious. I believe that a zygote is a human life.

Religion has nothing to do with it whatsoever for me so your claim that it's always about religion is false.

Agree, that is a lazy antiquated argument.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
windywave wrote:
This has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with intellectual honesty in acknowledging abortion terminates life. The debate is over when that is acceptable. Simple question you skipped over.... when does this set of living cells that aren't human life in your opinion morph into "human life" in your opinion.

everybody on your side of this says the issue has nothing to do with religion.

at least one of us holds a degree in biology. so let's use that education. as you put it, dig into the DNA of a zygote. it's human DNA. so is the DNA in every cell in a human's body, including the skin cells we slough off every day. i hope we've dispensed with this argument.

as to when a zygote becomes a human, here's what we know: a zygote is not as sentient as you or i. ascribing full rights to a zygote is a religious decision. but ascribing zero rights to a fetus that's full term is also problematic. so, we pick a point in the middle, based on science, based on reason, we choose a reasonable accommodation that makes half our society happy, and angers the one-fourth that sit on either extreme end.

My side? Pray tell what is my side since I evidently have turned into an uber religious strident pro-life activist unbeknownst to me. I just think it is disingenuous to say life is not being terminated.

Pulling the plug on someone taking a "human life" or no? I'm still trying to understand where the transformation occurs since you use sentience as your example.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
I am not religious. I believe that a zygote is a human life.

Religion has nothing to do with it whatsoever for me so your claim that it's always about religion is false.


But if he changed it from "always about religion" to "very strongly correlated with religion" it would be true, right? Attitudes about abortion track very strongly with religious beliefs (especially with certain denominations). Your particular situation in no way affects that (well, since you are one of hundreds of millions in North America, it affects it 1by <0.000001%). Here, from 2012. It is likely that the correlation between religiousity and pro-life opinion has become stronger since then:




Last edited by: oldandslow: May 16, 19 10:24
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
Duffy wrote:
BarryP wrote:
Quote:
If abortion was as available in 1970 as it is today I would not exist. This I know for a fact, straight from the source.



Also wanted to add that there are a lot of people who would exist otherwise if contraception was banned, or if people weren't such prudes about sex before marriage.

Hell, just changing interracial marriage laws leads to a whole lot of people who would have existed who never did, and a whole other group of people alive today who would never have existed.

Life is funny like that.


Thanks for sharing. This post gives great insight into your psyche.

What??? Barry points out that contraception changes whether folks would be around or not. There are plenty of folks who have exactly that viewpoint and specifically lump all contraception into the abortion debate and oppose it for that reason. That's just a fact, which he is pointing out. Do you have a problem with it? Your post says nothing about BarryP or anyone (it is a petty attack with no other content), but "gives great insight into your psyche." Perhaps BarryP just triggers you....

Have I ever written anything on this forum ever in the history of Duffy posts that would suggest that I’m opposed to the use of contraceptives?

The insight into Barry’s psyche is that HE is equating contraception with abortion, just like the religious right he opposes.

I see contraception and abortion as two separate things.

Contraception prevents an egg from being fertilized. If a couple does not want to have a baby they should refrain from vaginal intercourse or use contraception. This should be encouraged.

Abortion ends the life of an already fertilized egg. If a couple does not want to have a baby and they just couldn’t refrain from vaginal intercourse, didn’t use contraception or used it improperly, or in the very rare circumstance that properly used contraception didn’t work then they should have the right to an abortion if the pregnant lady in question wants to.

This should NOT be encouraged but should remain legal.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [mopdahl] [ In reply to ]
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mopdahl wrote:
You and I agree on almost nothing, but I 100% agree with your POV on this.

However I'm glad Alabama went all-in. It is a losing strategy (for a really good POV on this the NY Times has an op-ed about traveling down this road before (asking the SC to determine when a life actually begins (and yes NYT Opinion page isn't middle of the road, but this piece was from a lawyer/constitutional perspective))) as SC REALLY doesn't want to get into the "when does life begin" discussion.

This has been coming for a while, even before DJT became POTUS and the SC went conservative (though I'm afraid the ultra-anti abortionists are in for another disappointment).

Roe is horrible law. But the alternative is untenable.

And as much as the ultra-left/pro-choice regardless of morality crowd is beyond reasoning with, the far right/every-life-is-sacred anti-abortionists have decided that this battle has no middle ground. Moderate conservatives are getting absolutely gutted for their "bridge too far" opines on the Alabama law.....literally going to the zygote = human argument regardless of the VAST grey area that exists due to risk/circumstance/viability.....

And the shit-show continues.....

I'm with you. I like this summary of the issue. Well said.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
windywave wrote:
This has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with intellectual honesty in acknowledging abortion terminates life. The debate is over when that is acceptable. Simple question you skipped over.... when does this set of living cells that aren't human life in your opinion morph into "human life" in your opinion.


everybody on your side of this says the issue has nothing to do with religion.

at least one of us holds a degree in biology. so let's use that education. as you put it, dig into the DNA of a zygote. it's human DNA. so is the DNA in every cell in a human's body, including the skin cells we slough off every day. i hope we've dispensed with this argument.

as to when a zygote becomes a human, here's what we know: a zygote is not as sentient as you or i. ascribing full rights to a zygote is a religious decision. but ascribing zero rights to a fetus that's full term is also problematic. so, we pick a point in the middle, based on science, based on reason, we choose a reasonable accommodation that makes half our society happy, and angers the one-fourth that sit on either extreme end.

Permit me to interject here with an example of how the law struggles with the biology in this area.

In some jurisdictions, it is a criminal offense to kill an unborn child. In many of those jurisdictions, the unborn child needs to be "viable" at the time of the killing for it to be murder. But, many other jurisdictions do not have that requirement. Finally, a handful of jurisdictions do not provide any criminal protection for the unborn child. So, how can the law call it murder when a perp shoots a pregnant woman, killing the unborn child, but, it is not murder when a doctor ends the pregnancy at the same stage of development?

Don't mistake my position here. I do NOT believe in outlawing abortion. I am morally opposed to abortion, but, absolutely, positively, think it needs to be an individual's own moral decision, not something for the law to dictate.

But, see above for how the law struggles here.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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The insight into Barry’s psyche is that HE is equating contraception with abortion,.......


Uh, no I didn't. I equated it to resulting in people not being born, which is what you referenced in your post and I responded to.


I'm not saying abortion is the same as contraception, but they are certainly the same with respect to the idea that they both lead to different people existing or not existing depending on what laws are in place. So I suggest you let that argument go and, instead, focus on what are actually relevant distinctions.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I equated it to resulting in people not being born...

Yes, yes you did.

I just said hi to a lady for whom I held open a door. The interaction did not result in a person being born.

This is fun!

What other activities don’t result in birth? We could go on all day!

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Have I ever written anything on this forum ever in the history of Duffy posts that would suggest that I’m opposed to the use of contraceptives?

The insight into Barry’s psyche is that HE is equating contraception with abortion, just like the religious right he opposes.

I see contraception and abortion as two separate things.

Sigh, Barry wasn't saying that you were opposed to contraceptives, and he was merely pointing out that some people are (an indisputable fact). The thread had meandered from fetal/women's rights and "what is life" to a rumination on the loss of potential humans that may occur due to abortion. Barry merely pointed out that a reliance on that also logically leads to opposition to contraception (see the Catholic Church). He doesn't agree with that viewpoint, and also never said that you did. That argument came up, and he commented on the weakness of that particular approach. You have made your opinion on this abundantly clear. Sometimes the thread tangents aren't about all about you....
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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He didn’t say most. He said all.

Words have meanings.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
Quote:
Have I ever written anything on this forum ever in the history of Duffy posts that would suggest that I’m opposed to the use of contraceptives?

The insight into Barry’s psyche is that HE is equating contraception with abortion, just like the religious right he opposes.

I see contraception and abortion as two separate things.

Sigh, Barry wasn't saying that you were opposed to contraceptives, and he was merely pointing out that some people are (an indisputable fact). The thread had meandered from fetal/women's rights and "what is life" to a rumination on the loss of potential humans that may occur due to abortion. Barry merely pointed out that a reliance on that also logically leads to opposition to contraception (see the Catholic Church). He doesn't agree with that viewpoint, and also never said that you did. That argument came up, and he commented on the weakness of that particular approach. You have made your opinion on this abundantly clear. Sometimes the thread tangents aren't about all about you....

It’s very strange that i can repeatedly exclaim in no uncertain terms that I’m pro choice and want abortion to remain legal, beyond the point during pregnancy that most pro choice people tap out, and the only people on this forum who are pissed off at me are the pro choice liberals.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
He didn’t say most. He said all.

Words have meanings.

Of course. Now that we are in agreement, I take it that you agree with the words that I used, right? The point stands, religious outlook is a core aspect of this debate. I take it that you take similar exception to windywave's overbroad statement: "This has nothing to do with religion." Compare with your's" "Religion has nothing to do with it whatsoever FOR ME (capitalization added)" which is presumably accurate, but far less important as a singular occurance.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
Slowman wrote:
windywave wrote:
This has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with intellectual honesty in acknowledging abortion terminates life. The debate is over when that is acceptable. Simple question you skipped over.... when does this set of living cells that aren't human life in your opinion morph into "human life" in your opinion.


so, we pick a point in the middle, based on science, based on reason, we choose a reasonable accommodation that makes half our society happy, and angers the one-fourth that sit on either extreme end.


so you in essence split the baby. What about science says we as a society of empathetic, caring, individuals can't determine destroying the combination of living cells that will grow into a full formed human in nine months with no outside intervention is a bad thing, a thing we don't ever want to happen and put in place significant restrictions to allowing it to happen? It's an easy cop out to say, "you're only against abortion because of religion" How about a thoughtful humanist who values life in our society and has come to the conclusion that as a society we shouldn't destroy potential life and after a certain time it is absolutely destroying human life.

1st, you can say it's not about religion. but it's about religion. 2nd, all thoughtful humanists value life. all those thoughtful humanists consider a kid - who's having his CHIP program taking away - life. a very small number of them consider a single-cell organism of equal value.

ACE wrote:
you make the argument Christians make against atheists


no, i don't. there are plenty of christians who believe that the state - or a majority of citizens within the state - shouldn't impose its religion on everyone else. christians, people of other faiths, and people people of goodwill combine to form a cohort who believes there should be no imposition of one religion's view on everyone.

i agree with you that at some point a fetus should be imbued with legal and moral status. i agree that happens before the fetus is born. i think it happens after conception.

a humanist of goodwill and a christian of goodwill could agree on an imperfect, but workable, place somewhere in there. i'm the former. are you the latter?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
Pulling the plug on someone taking a "human life" or no? I'm still trying to understand where the transformation occurs since you use sentience as your example.

the issue here is legal. civil. "transformation" occurs whenever you and i say it occurs. you, and i, and the rest of our friends, fellows and neighbors. you are dead certain you're right. i'm dead certain i'm right. neither of us get our way. we each either continue to advocate for our own way - the others be damned - or we find a solution. if you're not up to the task, that's fine. the rest of us will decide in your stead. this is the way societies work.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
windywave wrote:
Pulling the plug on someone taking a "human life" or no? I'm still trying to understand where the transformation occurs since you use sentience as your example.

the issue here is legal. civil. "transformation" occurs whenever you and i say it occurs. you, and i, and the rest of our friends, fellows and neighbors. you are dead certain you're right. i'm dead certain i'm right. neither of us get our way. we each either continue to advocate for our own way - the others be damned - or we find a solution. if you're not up to the task, that's fine. the rest of us will decide in your stead. this is the way societies work.

Why are you lashing out? You previously claimed this was science citing to a biology degree, and now it is legal?

You said a fertilized egg, zygote etc. is not human life. When does it become human life? Simple question since you seemingly speak with authority that it is not at conception.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
I am not religious. I believe that a zygote is a human life.

Religion has nothing to do with it whatsoever for me so your claim that it's always about religion is false.

my mistake then. it is about religion 93, 95, 98 percent of the time. what is false is that the folks for whom this is a religious issue try to blow smoke up everyone's skirt by contending this has nothing to do with their religion.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, yes you did.


I don't like this piece of shit Buick?
Why?
Because its yellow?
But you like your yellow Corvette?
Are you saying that a Buick and a corvette are the same thing?
No. What I'm saying is what makes one better than the other, in your eyes, clearly has nothing to do with the color yellow.


If you think that abortions and contraceptives are different, then please use the differences in your argument. The potential of ending up as a human, later, is not a difference.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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A fertilized egg will only turn into a human if you provide it certain nutrients.
An unfertilized egg will do the same, and they get flushed down the toilet on a monthly basis and no one holds a wake for them.

And if people really wanted to prevent abortions, they would actually enact laws and policies that make that happen in greater numbers.






Quote:

What about science says we as a society of empathetic, caring, individuals can't determine destroying the combination of living cells that will grow into a full formed human in nine months with no outside intervention is a bad thing, a thing we don't ever want to happen and put in place significant restrictions to allowing it to happen?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
If you think that abortions and contraceptives are different, then please use the differences in your argument. The potential of ending up as a human, later, is not a difference.

I quote myself from the previous page...

Quote:
I see contraception and abortion as two separate things

Contraception prevents an egg from being fertilized. If a couple does not want to have a baby they should refrain from vaginal intercourse or use contraception. This should be encouraged.

Abortion ends the life of an already fertilized egg. If a couple does not want to have a baby and they just couldn’t refrain from vaginal intercourse, didn’t use contraception or used it improperly, or in the very rare circumstance that properly used contraception didn’t work then they should have the right to an abortion if the pregnant lady in question wants to.

This should NOT be encouraged but should remain legal.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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That's fine. I don't have a problem with that argument. As I said, I was only pointing out that changing the outcomes of who could have been born is not really part of the equation.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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