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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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"Anyway, I have discussed this ad nauseum in the past."

Okay, since you won't answer, I will.

The only difference between a non fertilized egg and one that has been fertilized is that the fertilized one replicates. At some point it splits into two cells, then four, then eight, etc. But even then, it isn't much different than cancer. The difference is that at some point is BECOMES a person..........given the right environment. It still has to take in nutrients or it dies.

A fertilized egg is a potential person.
An unfertilized egg is a potential person.
A 5 year old girl is a potential mother......some day.

All of these things have potential to become people, but none of them actually are people. Not a little girl's body. Not a sperm. Not an egg. And not a fertilized egg.

All you really have is a *feeling* that it's a person, but it isn't. It's a small collection or replicating cells that, given the right conditions, will become a person in a few months. But what feels correct isn't actually correct, but it is understandable. We've evolved to feel a need to protect fetuses. This same feeling, unfortunately, is a close cousin to feeling the need to force women to carry their fetuses to term, which is also related to the catholic church's feeling that contraception shouldn't be used.

Feeling this way makes more babies.

More babies helps the species survive.

Organisms that feel this way outcompete organisms that don't.

But these are all just feelings. In reality a fertilized egg, in its present state, isn't much different than a tumor.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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So little 12 year old "Amy" black girl in Montgmery with heart condition gets knocked up by her uncle, prognosis for girl is only 60% chance she will survive pregnancy what happens? Will there be legislative panel to determine if individual is high enough risk to die? What doctor would work under conditions to be threatened 99years? What if this were a little white rich girl, same thing?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
TriFortMill wrote:
yeah.... the fucking politics of killing babies is always hard to swallow.


Here’s where I stand, and it pisses everyone off...

I believe that abortion is awful and the taking of a life, whatever you want to call that life (baby/fetus) is just semantics.

I also believe that abortion should be legal.

Same here.

Unfortunately we don't live in Iran, Iraq, or Saudi Arabia. We're not a theocracy. I think that after a certain point in time that is a good while after conception and a good time before delivery, there's life. And it's sinful to after that point to dispose of it. However, in the US what I deem sinful isn't up for discussion in our laws. The law is clear. Also, we do have to seek a final and very difficult consensus that'll piss everyone off about what point in time that is.

Outside of that, one thing that always royally pisses me off about how opposition handles the issue is the same way they handle sex-ed.............just cover your ears and eyes and claim ignorance and "just don't do it". It's not a blend of figuring out where to legislate that point in time, but it's the total absence of meaningful adoption, childcare, medical coverage for mothers, and coverage and assistance for the born unwanted.

Basically, I really get the impression that it's "force them to have the kid, then once it's out.......fuck the kid". Not everyone, but a whole lot. Not through 1:1 conversation, but observing policy decisions and views by these people.

You can't be pro-life and then stand by while we reduce free/reduced rate school lunches and allow food debt shaming of kids in schools. You lose any moral high ground immediately.

Pro-life means a lot more than people think it does. It's pro-baby, pro-mother, pro-inmate, pro-cyclist on the road, pro-pedestrian, pro-don't drive like a damned selfish fool, pro-a-lot-more-things-than-most-anyone-wants-to-pay-for-to-actually-be-pro-life.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.msn.com/...pi89?ocid=spartanntp

not sure Alabama legislature really intended for all abortions to be banned for ever but more so to be part of the influence that overturns roe v. wade at the federal level. These new abortions bans will stir the waters and make their way to the SC so Roe can be looked at again and overturned.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t consider free lunches paid for by others to be indicative of compassion for kids.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ruby1] [ In reply to ]
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ruby1 wrote:
So little 12 year old "Amy" black girl in Montgmery with heart condition gets knocked up by her uncle, prognosis for girl is only 60% chance she will survive pregnancy what happens? Will there be legislative panel to determine if individual is high enough risk to die? What doctor would work under conditions to be threatened 99years? What if this were a little white rich girl, same thing?

Why are you asking me?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ruby1] [ In reply to ]
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If only it was a hypothetical. 11 years old, grandmother's boyfriend. Same facts as that Argentine case but now it's Ohio.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/...bS8%3d&i10c.dv=9



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Bretom wrote:
If only it was a hypothetical. 11 years old, grandmother's boyfriend. Same facts as that Argentine case but now it's Ohio.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/...bS8%3d&i10c.dv=9

Policy shouldn’t be decided on the most rare of circumstances.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
TriFortMill wrote:
yeah.... the fucking politics of killing babies is always hard to swallow.


Here’s where I stand, and it pisses everyone off...

I believe that abortion is awful and the taking of a life, whatever you want to call that life (baby/fetus) is just semantics.

I also believe that abortion should be legal.

Why does this piss people off?

Because he is a rebel who plays by his own rules and damnit it’s important that everyone know it! Too cool for school!

===============
Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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I can't tell your position. In an ideal world would we provide for the rarest of circumstances or not? Are you making the point that it's logistically too hard to legislate for every circumstance or arguing we shouldn't try?

Blanket policy shouldn't be dictated by the most rare of circumstances but the only reason you don't try to address them via exceptions to a blanket policy is laziness or ideology. There's no clearer case than Alabama. The last amendment they considered would have fixed for cases like this. The words were written, the cross-references were checked and they voted it down. Because the rights of a zygote override those of an 11 year old rape victim.



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I can't tell your position.

I’ve stated my position very clearly at least twice in this thread.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
Quote:
I can't tell your position.


I’ve stated my position very clearly at least twice in this thread.

Not on this specific point, this was new.



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Bretom wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Quote:
I can't tell your position.


I’ve stated my position very clearly at least twice in this thread.

Not on this specific point, this was new.

You can’t tell from my clearly stated position on a abortion what I think about an 11 year old getting impregnated by her grandfather?

You really can’t figure that out?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
oldandslow wrote:
That is the overwhelming majority viewpoint, except in small number of areas. Virtually nobody thinks abortion is good. Fighting to maintain the right to abortion is where the argument is. Finding an extremist on the internet doesn't change the fact that hundreds/thousands of my friends share your exact opinion.

So do you or your friends acknowledge that it is the taking of a life?

That’s a pretty low bar. Would you not treat a tapeworm if you got one because it’s taking a life and requires you as a host?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Moonrocket wrote:
Duffy wrote:
oldandslow wrote:
That is the overwhelming majority viewpoint, except in small number of areas. Virtually nobody thinks abortion is good. Fighting to maintain the right to abortion is where the argument is. Finding an extremist on the internet doesn't change the fact that hundreds/thousands of my friends share your exact opinion.


So do you or your friends acknowledge that it is the taking of a life?


That’s a pretty low bar. Would you not treat a tapeworm if you got one because it’s taking a life and requires you as a host?


I would acknowledge that the tapeworm is a life and then I’d kill it.

When you have an abortion it’s a life and then you kill it.

And it should remain legal.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Last edited by: Duffy: May 15, 19 13:47
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve scanned through almost 6 pages of discussion about an embryo’s right to life ..

But I think a lot of people have forgotten a couple of things - that abortions will always happen whether they are legal or not. And the choices it gives women - not in just choosing to have an abortion but the opportunities in life that she would have if she wasn’t raising a child (unwanted, potentially on her own). People have talked about adoption, like it’s such an easy thing to do, but have you spoken with anyone who has had no choice but to give up their child?

I think the discussion really needs to move past the definition of when life begins and more about the consequences of taking choices away from women ... abortions will continue to happen, and that means she will have to travel interstate or go underground (and the dangers of doing this). There are also the lost opportunities for the women - not only the lost potential of the unborn child.

The fact that 25 men supported banning abortion in Alabama proves to me that there’s a lack of empathy and understanding for the women who face making a harrowing decision for themselves and the unborn child. For men, they do and always will have the choice to walk away if they wish - women never will have this choice because it affects their bodies and their lives.

Unfortunately, I think this is only the beginning and more states will follow suit.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [snail] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, acknowledge that it’s a life and abort away if you do choose.

I’m not going to argue when it becomes human or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

I’m just going to stipulate that it’s life and that people have the right to snuff that life out.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Standard practice is to fertilize a bunch then freeze the leftovers. Great. Then what? Just throw them out later if we don't need them? We weren't ok with that. //

Thats great for you. But why do you feel that you should be able to force your view on this on everyone else? Even though your view is in the minority? I have some friends that also did IVF. It didn't work the first 2 times, all viable fertilized eggs died. So on the 3rd try they went with the shotgun effect. They got 4 this time, tried it down to two, and have two great boys today that just turned 13. You no doubt know how expensive these procedures are, so you would just have forced them to not have kids? And congratulations on your success the first time around, perhaps if you had gotten to # 3 or 4 or more, you might have a different opinion. Or perhaps more empathy for those in that position..
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
Yes, acknowledge that it’s a life and abort away if you do choose.

I’m not going to argue when it becomes human or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

I’m just going to stipulate that it’s life and that people have the right to snuff that life out.


At least you are consistent in your support of murder of an acknowledged life for convenience.

Do you support snuffing out old folks, folks with downs, folks with disabilities?

If more on the pro-abortion side of the aisle would acknowledge this is what is really happening, the support for the taking of life might dwindle even more.
Last edited by: ACE: May 15, 19 14:01
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Standard practice is to fertilize a bunch then freeze the leftovers. Great. Then what? Just throw them out later if we don't need them? We weren't ok with that. //

Thats great for you. But why do you feel that you should be able to force your view on this on everyone else? Even though your view is in the minority? I have some friends that also did IVF. It didn't work the first 2 times, all viable fertilized eggs died. So on the 3rd try they went with the shotgun effect. They got 4 this time, tried it down to two, and have two great boys today that just turned 13. You no doubt know how expensive these procedures are, so you would just have forced them to not have kids? And congratulations on your success the first time around, perhaps if you had gotten to # 3 or 4 or more, you might have a different opinion. Or perhaps more empathy for those in that position..

At what point was I forcing my views on anyone?

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Yes, acknowledge that it’s a life and abort away if you do choose.

I’m not going to argue when it becomes human or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

I’m just going to stipulate that it’s life and that people have the right to snuff that life out.


At least you are consistent in your support of murder of an acknowledged life for convenience.

Do you support snuffing out old folks, folks with downs, folks with disabilities?

If more on the pro-abortion side of the aisle would acknowledge this is what is really happening, the support for the taking of life might dwindle even more.


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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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At what point was I forcing my views on anyone? //

Forgive me, I thought that you were voting pro life and defending this Alabama decision. My bad..
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Yes, acknowledge that it’s a life and abort away if you do choose.

I’m not going to argue when it becomes human or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

I’m just going to stipulate that it’s life and that people have the right to snuff that life out.


At least you are consistent in your support of murder of an acknowledged life for convenience.

Do you support snuffing out old folks, folks with downs, folks with disabilities?

If more on the pro-abortion side of the aisle would acknowledge this is what is really happening, the support for the taking of life might dwindle even more.

I don’t support abortion. I think abortion is awful and 99.99% of the time totally avoidable.

This issue is deeply personal to me and I’ve discussed why in the past on this forum and don’t care to rehash it now.

But I don’t think that abortion should be illegal.

I think abortions will happen and they should be done as safely as possible. I also think we should be working to make abortion extremely rare.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ACE] [ In reply to ]
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ACE wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Yes, acknowledge that it’s a life and abort away if you do choose.

I’m not going to argue when it becomes human or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

I’m just going to stipulate that it’s life and that people have the right to snuff that life out.


At least you are consistent in your support of murder of an acknowledged life for convenience.

Do you support snuffing out old folks, folks with downs, folks with disabilities?

If more on the pro-abortion side of the aisle would acknowledge this is what is really happening, the support for the taking of life might dwindle even more.

I’m curious since you seem to feel really strongly about this- why do you think men are not proactively trying to be part of the solution to the unwanted pregnancy problem?

If it’s important to stop the killing shouldn’t there be a huge push for male birth control. If it’s really that important don’t you want to be able to ensure it never happens?

There have already been been multiple posts here about the bad decisions women made to get in this position- so clearly women are not reliable to some - so why are men not out in the street rallying for better birth control options?

There is plenty of data that long term female birth control like IUDs being available and free drops abortion rates. Imagine if something similar was made for men and both sides could make sure this doesn’t happen. Like how a car has both seatbelts and airbags to protect you.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Moonrocket wrote:
ACE wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Yes, acknowledge that it’s a life and abort away if you do choose.

I’m not going to argue when it becomes human or whatever the fuck you want to call it.

I’m just going to stipulate that it’s life and that people have the right to snuff that life out.


At least you are consistent in your support of murder of an acknowledged life for convenience.

Do you support snuffing out old folks, folks with downs, folks with disabilities?

If more on the pro-abortion side of the aisle would acknowledge this is what is really happening, the support for the taking of life might dwindle even more.


I’m curious since you seem to feel really strongly about this- why do you think men are not proactively trying to be part of the solution to the unwanted pregnancy problem?

If it’s important to stop the killing shouldn’t there be a huge push for male birth control. If it’s really that important don’t you want to be able to ensure it never happens?

There have already been been multiple posts here about the bad decisions women made to get in this position- so clearly women are not reliable to some - so why are men not out in the street rallying for better birth control options?

There is plenty of data that long term female birth control like IUDs being available and free drops abortion rates. Imagine if something similar was made for men and both sides could make sure this doesn’t happen. Like how a car has both seatbelts and airbags to protect you.

I am all for government paid for birth control for men and women, young and old and anything else you want to do to prevent pregnancy. Have the HS teacher demonstrate condoms, give the girls pills, give the boys pills if it helps.

Pass laws that require a man, once proven to be the father, to have to support the child, garnish his wages, make him take care of the child if they don't agree to put it up for adoption. (pretty sure we already do this)

My position has nothing to do with religion, what is right and wrong with regard to sexual activity or how much or how little some one has sex or is promiscuous.

But once you form a child in the womb, it is a person and as a society, we cannot simply kill it and call ourselves a caring, honest, decent society. We are barbaric if it gives us no pause to killing innocents for the sake of convenience.
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