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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
TriFortMill wrote:
yeah.... the fucking politics of killing babies is always hard to swallow.


Here’s where I stand, and it pisses everyone off...

I believe that abortion is awful and the taking of a life, whatever you want to call that life (baby/fetus) is just semantics.

I also believe that abortion should be legal.

Why does this piss people off?

_____
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Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
windywave wrote:
I think ascribing religiosity to abortion opposition is a fundamental flaw in your position. As someone else said if we found a single cell organism on Mars we would call it life. The latter part of your statement is true. People just don't want to agree on the point.

there's a difference between life and human life. we don't grant the bacterium that lives in your gut with the person who hosts the bacterium.

Then what is it if it isn't life?

You could be an atheist and determine that conception is life and therefore be opposed to abortion.

It is the degree which people want to allow that life to grow and attain attributes that determines where they reside on the abortion spectrum.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Bretom wrote:
An independent single-cell organism floating around on its independent own? Sure, most people would agree that's "life" (but very few would have any compunction about killing it, which I know isn't a great analogy because we're talking about the specialness of human here...but still).

The broader point is that we've got "science" and we've got "other." Science can tell us things about the physical development of zygotes and embyos, including the period in which most go from non-viable outside of the uterus to viable with a lot of help, but it can't tell us when as a society we should give that cluster of cells rights and how those rights should stack up against a mother's.

If you believe life begins at conception then you're relying on "other." 99% of times that appears to mean religion but if you got that unshakeable belief from somewhere else that's fine too. It doesn't mean it's reasonable for you to expect others to share that belief.

In Alabama's case though, we are absolutely talking about the imposition of religion.

Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that’s when we as government have to step in. When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."

Well the 10 Commandments tell her not to murder people and I'll bet you a dollar that is what she would cite for supporting murder laws. Does that mean murder laws are an imposition of religion?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Any chance this abortion ban actually holds up at SCOTUS?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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JD21 wrote:
Any chance this abortion ban actually holds up at SCOTUS?[/quoote]

I would be gobsmacked if it survived.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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jkca1 wrote:
BLeP wrote:
jkca1 wrote:


How many unwanted children has your friend adopted? If the answer is zero, tell your friend for me he is a fucking hypocritical asshole. If it's one or more, never mind.


I wish I lived in the world that you live in where everything was either black or white.


Instead of making abortion illegal, we should encourage people to adopt. We should make adoption easy, cheap and something to be proud of. If I didn't have two kids struggling daily with mental illness I would gladly add to my family. My mom and her sisters grew up in an orphanage. It was not pleasant. The beating did not stop, morale did not improve.

I hate the idea of abortion, but I hate the idea of the state telling women what they can or cannot do with their bodies more.

Adoption doesn't have to be financially costly. People can adopt through the foster system in many circumstances with little if any out-of-pocket expenses.* The problem is that adopting through the foster system is an emotional roller coaster so long as potential reunification with a birth parent is on the table. I have a close friend who gave up on the process after, for the second time, a child that they had bonded with closely, considered part of their family, etc., was removed from their home to never be seen again. Based on stories I've heard from our social worker, our foster to adoption went smoothly. Nevertheless, it was still a three-year ride, with emotional ups and downs and uncertainties. You bond with the child, consider him or her part of the family, know the birth parents are complete fuck-ups and unfit, know that if the child is reunited that it will be for the worst, yet there is that lingering possibility that that birth parents can do what is minimally necessary for reunification, and that kills you.

*With regard to costs, during foster care, the state covered all medical expenses and care. In addition, there was a monthly stipend that pretty much covered food, diapers, some clothing, etc. (The stipend was around $450 per month 10 years ago.) For the adoption process, the state paid for a lawyer to fill out the paperwork and represent us in court. Our only expense with the process was the livescan fingerprint costs for the background check. about $40 each. After adoption, our child can still be covered by Medical, although we've always just included her on our insurance and never took advantage of the state coverage. We also get a monthly stipend (currently $760 per month but indexed to inflation) until she's 18. I was surprised about that last point when we were signing the adoption papers because I didn't expect it. I had just assumed everything would be just like our other kids. The social worker told us that the stipend was so that good families wouldn't refuse to adopt solely because they couldn't afford another kid. (The monthly stipend has always gone towards the kid's college education.She'll have close to $200k when she graduates.)
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Bretom wrote:
Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

" When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."

God often changes his mind on the miracle. Mysterious ways indeed.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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If we are talking about an early stage embryo, one is a sentient being with feelings. The other one is unthinking, unfeeling, tissue, not much different than a mole on your skin.

Why do you think its messed up to care more about the cow?





"Some people view a cow as a more valuable life than a human embryo. I find that messed up. Some people view a cow as a more valuable life than a human embryo. I find that messed up. Some people view a cow as a more valuable life than a human embryo. I find that messed up."

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: May 15, 19 11:26
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Josh_CO] [ In reply to ]
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Josh_CO wrote:
Just to pile on here - if the unborn has rights, then it has all rights accorded to a "person" which would include identification with a government, citizenship rights and of course, the right to bear arms. Any immigrant pregnant in Alabama is now carrying a US citizen by right and you can't deport a citizen for crimes committed by their parent right?

The mental gymnastics it takes to believe both in unfettered rights to bear arms and at the same time the rights to restrict choice to expectant mothers baffles me and yet they seem to go together more often than not.
With so many people giving new born babies guns it only makes sense to arm a fetus.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
Bretom wrote:
An independent single-cell organism floating around on its independent own? Sure, most people would agree that's "life" (but very few would have any compunction about killing it, which I know isn't a great analogy because we're talking about the specialness of human here...but still).


The broader point is that we've got "science" and we've got "other." Science can tell us things about the physical development of zygotes and embyos, including the period in which most go from non-viable outside of the uterus to viable with a lot of help, but it can't tell us when as a society we should give that cluster of cells rights and how those rights should stack up against a mother's.

If you believe life begins at conception then you're relying on "other." 99% of times that appears to mean religion but if you got that unshakeable belief from somewhere else that's fine too. It doesn't mean it's reasonable for you to expect others to share that belief.

In Alabama's case though, we are absolutely talking about the imposition of religion.

Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that’s when we as government have to step in. When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."


Well the 10 Commandments tell her not to murder people and I'll bet you a dollar that is what she would cite for supporting murder laws. Does that mean murder laws are an imposition of religion?


That's the right argument but there's a distinction. I can very easily imagine a religious person having no clear feelings about when life begins but for the fact they believe their religion has determined it's conception. On the other hand, I can't imagine a Christian who's on the fence about murder but for the Ten Commandments. So while outlawing murder happens to align with that particular Ten Commandment, which is probably of great satisfaction to Christians, it's not a decision we as a pluralistic society need to make based on religion. That's not true of this version of the abortion debate. It's not clear, as it is for murder, that tolerance of abortion will damage our society. I'm not going to attempt that balance but plenty of people would obviously argue that the right to abortion is a net benefit. So absent that clarity religion, or something very close to it, is the only reason to make conception the center of the issue and legislate accordingly.



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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jkca1 wrote:
907Tri wrote:
I just had this discussion with a friend.


His whole argument stems from once a life is created, that life has rights. Fairly enough he then asked the question with that is when do you believe life is created.

I asked about rape and his answer was that he believes it is then the womens responsibility to give birth to that life as that life has rights. My reply was who has more "power" in their rights, an unborn child or a women who has "x" age, etc. He said it's the womens responsibility.

My take from that was when a women is born they inherit certain responsibilities no matter what happens to them. I simply disagree.

FWIW he is a conservative christian. I don't believe he is wrong at all, just that his opinions are vastly different from me.


How many unwanted children has your friend adopted? If the answer is zero, tell your friend for me he is a fucking hypocritical asshole. If it's one or more, never mind.


Some sources estimate that there are about 2 million couples currently waiting to adopt in the United States — which means there are as many as 36 waiting families for every one child who is placed for adoption.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Just my opinion. One is the start of a human life.

The other is stupid cow.

I value human life. And even if it's just a bunch of cells now, it's potential is far greater.

If I was King of the world abortion wouldn't happen. Adoption would.

But alas I am not. So I reluctantly support choice but hope the right choice is made.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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kiki wrote:
Bretom wrote:

Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

" When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."


God often changes his mind on the miracle. Mysterious ways indeed.

Chambliss clearly cares only about controlling women's bodies. He is explicit about this. When asked about embryos created by IVF, so conceived lives according to some, he allows them because, "The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant."

He only cares about controlling pregnancies, not about life.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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The pro life movement does nothing to reduce abortions, nor does it do anything to ensure that children are cared for after they are born.

This isn't the only issue that they are in other people's business about what they should or should not be doing. Draw a venn diagram of the pro lifers and the anti same sex marriagers and see how much cross over you get.







Quote:

If the pro-life movement was about reducing abortions they would be at the forefront of sex education, including free, readily available, shameless contraception. They are generally opposed to those things. Hard to conclude that their agenda is driven by eliminating abortion. I would also guess there is a pretty high correlation between pro-life and support of the death penalty.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
That is the overwhelming majority viewpoint, except in small number of areas. Virtually nobody thinks abortion is good. Fighting to maintain the right to abortion is where the argument is. Finding an extremist on the internet doesn't change the fact that hundreds/thousands of my friends share your exact opinion.

So do you or your friends acknowledge that it is the taking of a life?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
TriFortMill wrote:
yeah.... the fucking politics of killing babies is always hard to swallow.


Here’s where I stand, and it pisses everyone off...

I believe that abortion is awful and the taking of a life, whatever you want to call that life (baby/fetus) is just semantics.

I also believe that abortion should be legal.

Why does this piss people off?

The acknowledgment that abortion is the killing of a baby.

I don’t beat around the bush with deceptive euphemisms.

Yes it’s killing. Yes it should remain legal.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Bretom wrote:
In Alabama's case though, we are absolutely talking about the imposition of religion.

Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that’s when we as government have to step in. When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."

Why? Because she said God created the life? Remove the underlined portion and everything else still stands on it's own.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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What is so special about a fertilized egg compared to a non-fertilized egg? You called it "the start of human life," but that doesn't mean anything. What exactly is the difference that makes one more important than a cow, while the other can just be thrown in the garbage or flushed down the toilet?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
kiki wrote:
Bretom wrote:

Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

" When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."


God often changes his mind on the miracle. Mysterious ways indeed.


Chambliss clearly cares only about controlling women's bodies. He is explicit about this. When asked about embryos created by IVF, so conceived lives according to some, he allows them because, "The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant."

He only cares about controlling pregnancies, not about life.

I wonder what he has to say about the lost lives that get flushed down the toilet. It's a very disrespectful way to treat human remains.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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kiki wrote:
chaparral wrote:
kiki wrote:
Bretom wrote:

Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

" When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."


God often changes his mind on the miracle. Mysterious ways indeed.


Chambliss clearly cares only about controlling women's bodies. He is explicit about this. When asked about embryos created by IVF, so conceived lives according to some, he allows them because, "The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant."

He only cares about controlling pregnancies, not about life.


I wonder what he has to say about the lost lives that get flushed down the toilet. It's a very disrespectful way to treat human remains.

He is very clear this is about controlling pregnancies, not about protecting life. I mean he says so.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
Bretom wrote:
In Alabama's case though, we are absolutely talking about the imposition of religion.

Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that’s when we as government have to step in. When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."


Why? Because she said God created the life? Remove the underlined portion and everything else still stands on it's own.

It's a he, of course, and no it doesn't. If you don't have religion telling you life begins at conception and human rights attach at that point what do you have? Just a guy spouting something that seems "right to him"? That's what we're legislating on? Even when, as other posters have pointed out, his position is totally inconsistent on IVF embryos?

We don't pass laws that restrict the freedoms of what are, unquestionably, adult humans with a full-set of human rights based on what people think seems right to them. If science one day determined life begins at a fixed point in pregnancy and there's a defensible reason for attaching human rights at that point then I'll revisit. Until then we, as a society, have to navigate a grey area. Anyone who doesn't think it's grey is religious or obtuse.



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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JD21 wrote:
Any chance this abortion ban actually holds up at SCOTUS?

I can only assume that the states that have passed the ban were waiting on the "right" president or at least the right SCOTUS makeup to pass them. I have to admit that I am surprised that the bans/legislation is actually being passed as I thought it was just accepted.

FWIW - I am of the mindset of others expressed here that I don't like the thought of abortion but feel that it is important to keep it legal. I do disagree with the poster who says that it is a racial issue for those who oppose it.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [JD21] [ In reply to ]
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JD21 wrote:
Any chance this abortion ban actually holds up at SCOTUS?

I was wondering what would happen if the pro-choice folks took a different approach. Let the red states go pass whatever they want. Don't challenge anything in court. Then it never goes to the Supreme Court.

Sure you'll have sections of the country where abortion is unavailable. Yes, availability will be higher for people with more means to travel. But now, by *ignoring* state governments that make restrictive abortion laws, you take the wind out of their sails.


On a side note, I do find it super hypocritical that the far right always has this focus on "strict constitutionalists" and not legislating from the bench. Except when it comes to abortion.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
What is so special about a fertilized egg compared to a non-fertilized egg? You called it "the start of human life," but that doesn't mean anything. What exactly is the difference that makes one more important than a cow, while the other can just be thrown in the garbage or flushed down the toilet?

Do we really need to discuss the difference between a fertilized egg and a non-fertilized egg?

A non-fertilized egg is not the start of human life. It's just an egg. Just as sperm is not the start of human life. It's just sperm.

Anyway, I have discussed this ad nauseum in the past. And this is why when we did IVF we didn't fertilize any more eggs than we were prepared to use.

Standard practice is to fertilize a bunch then freeze the leftovers. Great. Then what? Just throw them out later if we don't need them? We weren't ok with that.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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If these people really cared about reducing abortions, they would keep them legal, not make them illegal.
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