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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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907Tri wrote:
I just had this discussion with a friend.

His whole argument stems from once a life is created, that life has rights. Fairly enough he then asked the question with that is when do you believe life is created.

I asked about rape and his answer was that he believes it is then the womens responsibility to give birth to that life as that life has rights. My reply was who has more "power" in their rights, an unborn child or a women who has "x" age, etc. He said it's the womens responsibility.

My take from that was when a women is born they inherit certain responsibilities no matter what happens to them. I simply disagree.

FWIW he is a conservative christian. I don't believe he is wrong at all, just that his opinions are vastly different from me.

How many unwanted children has your friend adopted? If the answer is zero, tell your friend for me he is a fucking hypocritical asshole. If it's one or more, never mind.

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
Having solved that. You can now move on to Iran.....

we largely solved mexico, canada, NATO, china, iran. the trick is to stop unsolving stuff we'd already solved.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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jkca1 wrote:

How many unwanted children has your friend adopted? If the answer is zero, tell your friend for me he is a fucking hypocritical asshole. If it's one or more, never mind.

I wish I lived in the world that you live in where everything was either black or white.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
makes terminating that pregnancy harder than it should be

You gloss over the fundamental point of contention. What is harder than it should be? Abortion is legal upto 1 second before birth or abortion is only legal for 1 second after conception?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [] [ In reply to ]
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Putting aside the religious argument, Chambliss said that abortions could only be provided "until the woman is known to be pregnant", so there's the level of intelligence of who is deciding these laws

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
Slowman wrote:
makes terminating that pregnancy harder than it should be


You gloss over the fundamental point of contention. What is harder than it should be? Abortion is legal upto 1 second before birth or abortion is only legal for 1 second after conception?

it's fundamentally wrong, under our form of government, for one religious majority to force its religion on everyone else. ascribing full fledged life status to a zygote is a religious decision. no can do. but it's also reasonable to expect some floor sense of responsibility out of a citizen; and to admit that at a certain point rights do flow to a fetus. what is that point? we pick a point. that's it. nobody is entirely happy. everyone must adjust. we all live in a society. together. if we can't agree to that then we've abdicated our right to call ourselves an average, let alone exceptional, nation.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
Guffaw wrote:
Alabama & Georgia... and Louisiana, Missouri, South Carolina and Tennessee not far behind.
The US should just carve off the South-East and let them go their own way. I'd love to see how well their confederate conservative christian republic will fare.


How very tolerant of you.

Not sure how his statement is tolerant or intolerant. They largely want to go their own way. It is perfectly tolerant to give them the legislative freedom that they desire. He may be making a judgment on their economc viability and the public policies, but that is different. Opinions are freely expressed. You started this thread with strong opinion. At some point when the federal government is no longer controlled by the GOP, many folks in the most conservative states will largely agree with Guffaw.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Not sure how his statement is tolerant or intolerant

Then I can’t help you.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
jkca1 wrote:


How many unwanted children has your friend adopted? If the answer is zero, tell your friend for me he is a fucking hypocritical asshole. If it's one or more, never mind.


I wish I lived in the world that you live in where everything was either black or white.

Instead of making abortion illegal, we should encourage people to adopt. We should make adoption easy, cheap and something to be proud of. If I didn't have two kids struggling daily with mental illness I would gladly add to my family. My mom and her sisters grew up in an orphanage. It was not pleasant. The beating did not stop, morale did not improve.

I hate the idea of abortion, but I hate the idea of the state telling women what they can or cannot do with their bodies more.

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Your opening statement:

"Oh, and that whole banning of abortions is fucking stupid too..
Fucking religion... "

Time to re-evaluate your role as the cosmic arbiter of tolerance. Your double standard is mind-boggling. I can't help you either.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Yet there are a lot of women who are opposed to abortion. //

And there are a lot of people that are into eating other people, what is you point? I said "most" people are for the woman right to choose, and even more women than men are for that right. Are you trying to argue that just because a lot of people think something, it ought to outweigh the lot more group??
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
Your opening statement:

"Oh, and that whole banning of abortions is fucking stupid too..
Fucking religion... "

Time to re-evaluate your role as the cosmic arbiter of tolerance. Your double standard is mind-boggling. I can't help you either.

Right, because disagreeing with people and wanting to purge people people from the country are exactly the same thing...

Like I said, I can’t help you.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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If you bothered to read my post, I prefaced it by saying that is largely the path many states are taking. "State's rights" is the clarion call when your party is out of power at the federal level. Many states in the South were so strongly leaning "state's rights" (bordering secessionist) when Obama was in power. "Calexit" is a thing now. It will swing even more strongly the other way in the future. At most Guffaw is a little early in basically echoing the desire of the members of those states, and taking it to a fully logical step. It is the path that we are taking, and this issue is merely one example.

Put another way, allowing a state fullest autonomy (even up to secession) is the highest form of tolerance, right? Modify the slatement only slightly, but express the same exact same sentiment.
Last edited by: oldandslow: May 15, 19 9:32
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
while this is a complex, layered issue, the solution is not that complex (or doesn't have to be). i empathize with the pro life position. and i would be pro life. 100 percent. if i ascribed to the religion that sits behind the pro life movement. "i knew you when you were in the womb." but life that begins at conception is a religious argument, and everyone - including those on this board - who's argue that it isn't have been, coincidentally, christians.

still, it's reasonable to assume that at some point rights flow to the unborn, and that a pregnant woman must exercise her choice to terminate prior to that point. so, abortions are legal up until X months into pregnancy.

it's also reasonable that the state exercise its responsibility. any person, or any entity, including a governmental entity, that through direct action or legislative action makes terminating that pregnancy harder than it should be takes on itself the financial obligation of raising that child. that's only fair (texas). so, if you're the state of texas, or alabama, get ready to open your pocketbook. then we'll see how long those legislative hijinks continue.

done. topic: hard. solution: not that hard.

Agree^^

The abortion discussion is not about "telling women what to do with their bodies" or "getting involved in other people's vaginas". Those "arguments" are BS rhetoric that only serve to prove that the person who says them is not capable of rational discussion.

The abortion discussion is and should only be about at what point does the unborn child have the right to life. As Slowman says, some would say at inception, others say not till out of the womb. I would argue those are the fringe, most of us are somewhere in between. My college GF took the morning after pill after a night we made a risky decision. I don't see that as an abortion any more than the fact that my wife has an IUD in that makes it impossible for that fertilized egg to attach.

The timing discussion also handles the rape issue. If the designate time for rights to apply is 12 weeks then any rape situation can be handled long before then. Hell most are likely handled in the first day or week.

It really isn't that hard, the fringe characters of "at inception" and "out of the womb" are the people who make the noise and try to make it more difficult than it is.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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does anyone know:

if a minor has a baby and the father is also a minor, who takes legal responsibility for that baby?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [kiki] [ In reply to ]
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kiki wrote:
does anyone know:

if a minor has a baby and the father is also a minor, who takes legal responsibility for that baby?

Depends on the state but generally since you’re not an adult you have no legal responsibility and can’t have the child taken from you.

Or you can become an emancipated minor.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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yeah.... the fucking politics of killing babies is always hard to swallow.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
windywave wrote:
Slowman wrote:
makes terminating that pregnancy harder than it should be


You gloss over the fundamental point of contention. What is harder than it should be? Abortion is legal upto 1 second before birth or abortion is only legal for 1 second after conception?

it's fundamentally wrong, under our form of government, for one religious majority to force its religion on everyone else. ascribing full fledged life status to a zygote is a religious decision. no can do. but it's also reasonable to expect some floor sense of responsibility out of a citizen; and to admit that at a certain point rights do flow to a fetus. what is that point? we pick a point. that's it. nobody is entirely happy. everyone must adjust. we all live in a society. together. if we can't agree to that then we've abdicated our right to call ourselves an average, let alone exceptional, nation.

I think ascribing religiosity to abortion opposition is a fundamental flaw in your position. As someone else said if we found a single cell organism on Mars we would call it life.

The latter part of your statement is true. People just don't want to agree on the point.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [A-A-Ron] [ In reply to ]
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A-A-Ron wrote:
My college GF took the morning after pill after a night we made a risky decision. I don't see that as an abortion any more than the fact that my wife has an IUD in that makes it impossible for that fertilized egg to attach.

.

A friend who's wife had an IUD had an unexpected pregnancy. Let's go with, "improbable", not "impossible".

As for the morning after pill, if it was truly the morning after, then she likely wasn't even pregnant yet (assuming that all conditions were right for pregnancy in the first place).

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
A-A-Ron wrote:
My college GF took the morning after pill after a night we made a risky decision. I don't see that as an abortion any more than the fact that my wife has an IUD in that makes it impossible for that fertilized egg to attach.

.


A friend who's wife had an IUD had an unexpected pregnancy. Let's go with, "improbable", not "impossible".

As for the morning after pill, if it was truly the morning after, then she likely wasn't even pregnant yet (assuming that all conditions were right for pregnancy in the first place).

Yeah, I still take "precautions" to avoid any demon spawn.

I would agree she was most likely not pregnant. But as a Junior in college that was not a risk I wanted to take. I guess that is when I knew for sure I didn't buy into the "at conception" idea.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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//while this is a complex, layered issue, the solution is not that complex (or doesn't have to be). i empathize with the pro life position. and i would be pro life. 100 percent. if i ascribed to the religion that sits behind the pro life movement. "i knew you when you were in the womb." but life that begins at conception is a religious argument, and everyone - including those on this board - who's argue that it isn't have been, coincidentally, christians.

still, it's reasonable to assume that at some point rights flow to the unborn, and that a pregnant woman must exercise her choice to terminate prior to that point. so, abortions are legal up until X months into pregnancy.

it's also reasonable that the state exercise its responsibility. any person, or any entity, including a governmental entity, that through direct action or legislative action makes terminating that pregnancy harder than it should be takes on itself the financial obligation of raising that child. that's only fair (texas). so, if you're the state of texas, or alabama, get ready to open your pocketbook. then we'll see how long those legislative hijinks continue.

done. topic: hard. solution: not that hard. //

Well, trying to get agreement on your simple "X months of pregnancy" is already a complicated issue. That said, I agree with what you've stated and, frankly, I believe most people do as well. Not the far left/far right. But most folks. I find the whole idea of abortion disgusting and unfortunate but I am pro-choice up to X months as well. I'd prefer the focus be placed on birth control services. I support Planned Parenthood - nothing to do with abortions but because they offer a service to young girls who are sexually active and cannot discuss the topic with their parents. These girls can go to PP on their own and get contraception and start sexual health monitoring. Abstinence is the best choice but, let's face it, those who are blathering on about pro-life and abstinence formed this view when they 'got religion' and not when they were young and sexually active. Funny how that works. I made some PP supportive comments on Facebook and was lambasted by some high school friends who are now strong pro-lifers advocating abstinence. Thing is, I knew them in high school and they were anything but abstinent.

I have two daughters and we've had to navigate this whole issue already. We took the approach to be open and honest with the girls and asked for the same in return. They both let us know when they felt it was time to get on birth control and we handled everything. As much as I hated the discussion, I'd hate dealing with a pregnant teen even more. Thankfully, I had the benefit of growing up with three older sisters so I understood the realities long before I had to deal with them.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
I think ascribing religiosity to abortion opposition is a fundamental flaw in your position. As someone else said if we found a single cell organism on Mars we would call it life. The latter part of your statement is true. People just don't want to agree on the point.

there's a difference between life and human life. we don't grant the bacterium that lives in your gut with the person who hosts the bacterium.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [TriFortMill] [ In reply to ]
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TriFortMill wrote:
yeah.... the fucking politics of killing babies is always hard to swallow.

Here’s where I stand, and it pisses everyone off...

I believe that abortion is awful and the taking of a life, whatever you want to call that life (baby/fetus) is just semantics.

I also believe that abortion should be legal.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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An independent single-cell organism floating around on its independent own? Sure, most people would agree that's "life" (but very few would have any compunction about killing it, which I know isn't a great analogy because we're talking about the specialness of human here...but still).

The broader point is that we've got "science" and we've got "other." Science can tell us things about the physical development of zygotes and embyos, including the period in which most go from non-viable outside of the uterus to viable with a lot of help, but it can't tell us when as a society we should give that cluster of cells rights and how those rights should stack up against a mother's.

If you believe life begins at conception then you're relying on "other." 99% of times that appears to mean religion but if you got that unshakeable belief from somewhere else that's fine too. It doesn't mean it's reasonable for you to expect others to share that belief.

In Alabama's case though, we are absolutely talking about the imposition of religion.

Clyde Chambliss, Senate Sponsor:

"Human life has rights, and when someone takes those rights, that’s when we as government have to step in. When God creates that life, that miracle of life inside the woman’s womb, it’s not our place as humans to extinguish that life. That’s what I believe."



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
Last edited by: Bretom: May 15, 19 10:35
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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That is the overwhelming majority viewpoint, except in small number of areas. Virtually nobody thinks abortion is good. Fighting to maintain the right to abortion is where the argument is. Finding an extremist on the internet doesn't change the fact that hundreds/thousands of my friends share your exact opinion.
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