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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [patentattorney] [ In reply to ]
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patentattorney wrote:
I think the earliest child birth survival outside of the womb is 22 weeks.

21 according to the internets
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [patentattorney] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry if this was answered in the thread already but what's the genesis of pro-lifers identifying conception as the start of life? Is it written in the bible, just historical tradition? I'm just curious when it became established that so many people who were "pro-life" in the sense that they were willing to ascribe rights to a fetus that could override a mother's wishes, also held that those rights arose at conception.



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
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You choosing not to vaccinate your child against measles could kill my child. That needs to be dealt with. So if you don't want to vaccinate, then your freedoms will be infringed to serve the greater good.


And therein lies the messy argument about abortion. Pro lifers believe that a womens “choosing” what to do “with her body” infringes on the right of the “child” to live.

This isn’t some simple yes or no issue. It’s very messy.

Also, except in very rare circumstances, if someone finds themselves in need of an abortion they have made several bad decisions along the way before they even got pregnant. Abortion really isn’t about what women can do with their bodies, it’s about absolving them of taking responsibility for their poor choices.

It really is pro-choice. It’s pro-make-bad-choices-with-no-consequences.

Whilst, I mostly agree with you... I wouldn't say that there are no consequences to abortion.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [patentattorney] [ In reply to ]
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patentattorney wrote:
Does this law make for exceptions if the mother's health is at risk? Seems like if the carrying the infant could kill the mother, then someone outside of the two people are making it their choice.

My personal opinion is that elective abortions should happen before 12 weeks. If there is a medical issue with the infant, you get around 48 hours to make a decision. If the mothers life is at risk, then you can get the procedure done. (I think this is the European model).



A doctor can decide for an abortion under this law but the decision will need review from another party. If they disagree with the doctor and the procedure has already taken place, the doctor can face up to 99 years of prison time. This will scare most physicians from performing the procedure in the first place I think unless there is a certain thought of harm to the mother from pregnancy complications.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [scorpio516] [ In reply to ]
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scorpio516 wrote:
BLeP wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........


If only there was some demographic breakdown we could see of who voted these men in. I bet it was only men who voted for these WOMEN HATING MONSTERS!!!!


When you realize banning abortion only harms poor and brown people...

Poppycock.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Bretom wrote:
Sorry if this was answered in the thread already but what's the genesis of pro-lifers identifying conception as the start of life? Is it written in the bible, just historical tradition? I'm just curious when it became established that so many people who were "pro-life" in the sense that they were willing to ascribe rights to a fetus that could override a mother's wishes, also held that those rights arose at conception.

What is life? I would say that it starts when the sperm and the egg get together and the cells in the egg start multiplying.

If we found a single celled organism on Mars would we call that life? Sure as shit we would. Yet a human in developmental stages in a womb is not?

Poppycock.

Is it viable outside the womb? of course not, that doesn't make it any less alive though.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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When you realize banning abortion only harms poor and brown people...
Poppycock.

While "...only harms..." is a sloppy overstatement, this law disproportionately affects poor people. As many have pointed out, wealthy folks can much more easily procur abortion services out-of-state.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
BarryP wrote:
"And the pro-life side would take issue with you framing this as if only the woman's body is involved in an abortion. "

You make a lot of good points, Slowguy, regarding both sides of the argument.

Most of the people, however, on the pro-life side of the argument don't display that they care much about life at all, while they do display that they care an awful lot about controlling people.


How do you arrive at that hypothesis?

If the pro-life movement was about reducing abortions they would be at the forefront of sex education, including free, readily available, shameless contraception. They are generally opposed to those things. Hard to conclude that their agenda is driven by eliminating abortion. I would also guess there is a pretty high correlation between pro-life and support of the death penalty.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow wrote:
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When you realize banning abortion only harms poor and brown people...
Poppycock.


While "...only harms..." is a sloppy overstatement, this law disproportionately affects poor people. As many have pointed out, wealthy folks can much more easily procur abortion services out-of-state.

I agree. I was taking issue with the sloppy overstatement.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Replying to this quote that I know you only quoted:


"Also, except in very rare circumstances, if someone finds themselves in need of an abortion they have made several bad decisions along the way before they even got pregnant. Abortion really isn’t about what women can do with their bodies, it’s about absolving them of taking responsibility for their poor choices."

Seriously? I am 38. I would estimate that about a third of the women my age that I'm close enough to have discussed this with have terminated pregnancies. If it was guys that ended up pregnant I'd guess that proportion would double. And it would include me.


The "several bad decisions" the OP referenced range from getting drunk at a party and having unprotected sex on one end to relying on malfunctioning prophylactics, relying on ineffective vasectomies, making the difficult decision to terminate a pregnancy on the basis there's a good chance, though not a likelihood, that a child would be born with a genetic deformity. None of these are very rare circumstances. It seems to me that the OP's acknowledging rape victims, maybe, and then dividing the remaining world of women into bad actors who need abortions and good ones that don't. As someone who knows a lot of those "bad women" he's way off, and sounds incredibly sanctimonious.



"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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Thom wrote:
windywave wrote:
BarryP wrote:
"And the pro-life side would take issue with you framing this as if only the woman's body is involved in an abortion. "

You make a lot of good points, Slowguy, regarding both sides of the argument.

Most of the people, however, on the pro-life side of the argument don't display that they care much about life at all, while they do display that they care an awful lot about controlling people.


How do you arrive at that hypothesis?

If the pro-life movement was about reducing abortions they would be at the forefront of sex education, including free, readily available, shameless contraception. They are generally opposed to those things.

I think you're making an overly broad unsubstantiated claim.

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I would also guess there is a pretty high correlation between pro-life and support of the death penalty.

Arguendo that is true, that is germane how?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Clearly tongue in cheek...

Going to make it illegal to masturbate and shoot hundreds of kids down the shower drain?

tougue in cheek is ok.

Not understanding human biology is not ok.

And it would be millions. Not hundreds.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Not going to debate when life begins, and what grade to assign that life in the hierarchy of importance. But lets see what happens when Alabama looses 10's or 100's of millions in business revenue, looks like there is going to be the state wide boycott that NC had over the rest room fiasco. Lets say they start heading to the shit pile of states and go bankrupt, are they going to change their minds like NC did? Or will they all sacrifice their standard of living for their beliefs? If this does not go federal and remains a state thing, I think it gets reversed with a stout boycott of the state..

I mean, most people are for woman's rights, so it is just a matter of voting the people out that are pushing the minority view on everyone here..
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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My guess is that the Governator will shoot it down.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Not going to debate when life begins, and what grade to assign that life in the hierarchy of importance. But lets see what happens when Alabama looses 10's or 100's of millions in business revenue, looks like there is going to be the state wide boycott that NC had over the rest room fiasco. Lets say they start heading to the shit pile of states and go bankrupt, are they going to change their minds like NC did? Or will they all sacrifice their standard of living for their beliefs? If this does not go federal and remains a state thing, I think it gets reversed with a stout boycott of the state..

I mean, most people are for woman's rights, so it is just a matter of voting the people out that are pushing the minority view on everyone here..

Well, considering they are ranked 49th out of 50 states...I think they are taking the it can't get much worse stance on that one.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Alabama & Georgia... and Louisiana, Missouri, South Carolina and Tennessee not far behind.
The US should just carve off the South-East and let them go their own way. I'd love to see how well their confederate conservative christian republic will fare.

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Quote:
You choosing not to vaccinate your child against measles could kill my child. That needs to be dealt with. So if you don't want to vaccinate, then your freedoms will be infringed to serve the greater good.


And therein lies the messy argument about abortion. Pro lifers believe that a womens “choosing” what to do “with her body” infringes on the right of the “child” to live.

This isn’t some simple yes or no issue. It’s very messy.

Also, except in very rare circumstances, if someone finds themselves in need of an abortion they have made several bad decisions along the way before they even got pregnant. Abortion really isn’t about what women can do with their bodies, it’s about absolving them of taking responsibility for their poor choices.

It really is pro-choice. It’s pro-make-bad-choices-with-no-consequences.

Whilst, I mostly agree with you... I wouldn't say that there are no consequences to abortion.

Agreed.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
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Guffaw wrote:
Alabama & Georgia... and Louisiana, Missouri, South Carolina and Tennessee not far behind.
The US should just carve off the South-East and let them go their own way. I'd love to see how well their confederate conservative christian republic will fare.

How very tolerant of you.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I mean, most people are for woman's rights, so it is just a matter of voting the people out that are pushing the minority view on everyone here..

Yet there are a lot of women who are opposed to abortion.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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From HER wikipedia page:

Abortion and women's rights[edit]
In August 2018, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals issued a ruling that blocked the Alabama Unborn Child Protection from Dismemberment Act, Ivey reflected on her support for the state law while serving as Lieutenant Governor and said that "we should not let this discourage our steadfast commitment to protect the lives of the unborn, even if that means taking this case to the U.S. Supreme Court." She furthered that the ruling "clearly demonstrates why we need conservative justices on the Supreme Court" and expressed her support for the confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court.[53]

- the act/case talked about here was about limiting a womens right to abortions during the second trimester. Obviously 6 weeks and 15 weeks are different.

-For waht it is worth, She is pro-death penalty (or at least against judges being able to over turn death penalty).
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Is it viable outside the womb? of course not, that doesn't make it any less alive though.

When people say "life" what they really mean is, "When is it a person."


Life started 4 billion years ago. Everything that is alive today is a split off of something that was alive back then. A sperm is also alive, until you shoot it outside of the body, and then it dies. Weeds are also alive, and we spray them with weed killer.

So we kill things. And we kill things that are part human. We also kill things that would potentially be human if the conditions are right.

Once a sperm fertilizes and egg, it is now something that will potentially be a separate human life. The question is, at what point should it have the right not to be killed.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Just to pile on here - if the unborn has rights, then it has all rights accorded to a "person" which would include identification with a government, citizenship rights and of course, the right to bear arms. Any immigrant pregnant in Alabama is now carrying a US citizen by right and you can't deport a citizen for crimes committed by their parent right?

The mental gymnastics it takes to believe both in unfettered rights to bear arms and at the same time the rights to restrict choice to expectant mothers baffles me and yet they seem to go together more often than not.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
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Is it viable outside the womb? of course not, that doesn't make it any less alive though.


When people say "life" what they really mean is, "When is it a person."


Life started 4 billion years ago. Everything that is alive today is a split off of something that was alive back then. A sperm is also alive, until you shoot it outside of the body, and then it dies. Weeds are also alive, and we spray them with weed killer.

So we kill things. And we kill things that are part human. We also kill things that would potentially be human if the conditions are right.

Once a sperm fertilizes and egg, it is now something that will potentially be a separate human life. The question is, at what point should it have the right not to be killed.


Some people.

Some people view a cow as a more valuable life than a human embryo. I find that messed up.

Regardless, I will restate my position. I am pro choice. And I would really prefer that more money and effort went into education on the choice of life --> adoption, rather than termination.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Last edited by: BLeP: May 15, 19 8:26
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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while this is a complex, layered issue, the solution is not that complex (or doesn't have to be). i empathize with the pro life position. and i would be pro life. 100 percent. if i ascribed to the religion that sits behind the pro life movement. "i knew you when you were in the womb." but life that begins at conception is a religious argument, and everyone - including those on this board - who's argue that it isn't have been, coincidentally, christians.

still, it's reasonable to assume that at some point rights flow to the unborn, and that a pregnant woman must exercise her choice to terminate prior to that point. so, abortions are legal up until X months into pregnancy.

it's also reasonable that the state exercise its responsibility. any person, or any entity, including a governmental entity, that through direct action or legislative action makes terminating that pregnancy harder than it should be takes on itself the financial obligation of raising that child. that's only fair (texas). so, if you're the state of texas, or alabama, get ready to open your pocketbook. then we'll see how long those legislative hijinks continue.

done. topic: hard. solution: not that hard.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Having solved that. You can now move on to Iran.....
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