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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
My issue is with people telling other people what they are allowed to do with their bodies.

And the pro-life side would take issue with you framing this as if only the woman's body is involved in an abortion.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Drugs is manifestly different from suicide and vaccines

If you want to take drugs and are of sound mind and body. Knock yourself out if it doesn't harm others

If you are suicidal and thinking straight I. E. End of life treatment. Again knock yourself out

If you are mentally unwell, then I think an intervention due to mental health issues is called for. Then if determined OK and you want to check out, knock yourself out

Vaccines are a public health issue. You choosing not to vaccinate your child against measles could kill my child. That needs to be dealt with. So if you don't want to vaccinate, then your freedoms will be infringed to serve the greater good.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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You choosing not to vaccinate your child against measles could kill my child. That needs to be dealt with. So if you don't want to vaccinate, then your freedoms will be infringed to serve the greater good.

And therein lies the messy argument about abortion. Pro lifers believe that a womens “choosing” what to do “with her body” infringes on the right of the “child” to live.

This isn’t some simple yes or no issue. It’s very messy.

Also, except in very rare circumstances, if someone finds themselves in need of an abortion they have made several bad decisions along the way before they even got pregnant. Abortion really isn’t about what women can do with their bodies, it’s about absolving them of taking responsibility for their poor choices.

It really is pro-choice. It’s pro-make-bad-choices-with-no-consequences.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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For the most part, yes, except where it negatively affects or causes endangerment to other people. So drinking is fine, drinking and driving is not fine. Smoking in private is fine, smoking at the workplace is not. That doesn't mean that I don't think that certain things are stupid, but I don't think drug use, for example, should be criminalized. Refusal to vaccinate has the potential to cause endangerment, but as far as I know that isn't illegal yet.

"Allowed to do" is in the legal sense, of course. Morals and ethics are a separate discussion.

Of course, my comment was about this discussion here about men telling women what to do with their bodies. I have an equal issue with women telling other women what to do with their bodies, or women telling men what to do, or men telling other men.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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"This isn’t some simple yes or no issue. It’s very messy.

Also, except in very rare circumstances, if someone finds themselves in need of an abortion they have made several bad decisions along the way before they even got pregnant. Abortion really isn’t about what women can do with their bodies, it’s about absolving them of taking responsibility for their poor choices.

It really is pro-choice. It’s pro-make-bad-choices-with-no-consequences"

This - x1000

I'm not religious at all however I feel the same. as a result of those poor choices i think the rug rat should have a chance at life.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
My issue is with people telling other people what they are allowed to do with their bodies.

And the pro-life side would take issue with you framing this as if only the woman's body is involved in an abortion.

Of course, that isn't the only consideration that makes up my viewpoint. I haven't actually said what my stance on abortion is.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Greg66] [ In reply to ]
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Greg66 wrote:
Moreover, what Alabama (and Georgia) have done is aimed squarely at provoking litigation which will go to SCOTUS with a view to overturning Roe v Wade.

Ultimately, therefore, this will be decided by 7 men and 2 women.

This is what is actually going on. The 2 states saw a chance to overturn Roe V. Wade and decided to go for broke - completely ban abortion. The reason they think they have a chance is this decision:

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/...-two-state-dispute-4

SCOTUS recently overturn already established law, something that was not done very often in the past, and they did it for really no good reason. The original decision did not have any flaws, they just didn't like it politically. The fear/hope is that they will do it again for other things that they don't believe in morally or politically, and the bible thumping conservatives think abortion fits that bill.

Regardless of which side of abortion you are on, this should concern you. It means that nothing is really decided, there is no longer precedence. Anyone can push anything as high as they can to try to change the law's mind, even if it was previously decided. It is same thing that is going on in congress right now. That was started years ago and has just been elevated to a new level recently.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........


If only there was some demographic breakdown we could see of who voted these men in. I bet it was only men who voted for these WOMEN HATING MONSTERS!!!!

When you realize banning abortion only harms poor and brown people...

Every single one of these men would send their daughters or mistresses to the north or Europe for a safe legal abortion. Most of them hope brown people die in back alley abortions they are forced to get
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"If two people have a physically dependent relationship, one doesn't get to kill the other and call it "their right to choose."

Does this law make for exceptions if the mother's health is at risk? Seems like if the carrying the infant could kill the mother, then someone outside of the two people are making it their choice.

My personal opinion is that elective abortions should happen before 12 weeks. If there is a medical issue with the infant, you get around 48 hours to make a decision. If the mothers life is at risk, then you can get the procedure done. (I think this is the European model).


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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [scorpio516] [ In reply to ]
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scorpio516 wrote:
BLeP wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........


If only there was some demographic breakdown we could see of who voted these men in. I bet it was only men who voted for these WOMEN HATING MONSTERS!!!!

When you realize banning abortion only harms poor and brown people...

Every single one of these men would send their daughters or mistresses to the north or Europe for a safe legal abortion. Most of them hope brown people die in back alley abortions they are forced to get

I thought I had seen - but now can’t find it - that Georgia’s new law banned women travelling out state to obtain an abortion, under penalty of prison.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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907Tri wrote:

I asked about rape and his answer was that he believes it is then the womens responsibility to give birth to that life as that life has rights. My reply was who has more "power" in their rights, an unborn child or a women who has "x" age, etc. He said it's the womens responsibility.

Ask him who has responsibility for the care/feeding/$$$ once it's born.



907Tri wrote:
FWIW he is a conservative christian. I don't believe he is wrong at all, just that his opinions are vastly different from me.

I'm sure he believes that all women should be barefoot and speak when only spoken to. Too bad his ilk breeds.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [scorpio516] [ In reply to ]
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scorpio516 wrote:
BLeP wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........


If only there was some demographic breakdown we could see of who voted these men in. I bet it was only men who voted for these WOMEN HATING MONSTERS!!!!

When you realize banning abortion only harms poor and brown people...

Every single one of these men would send their daughters or mistresses to the north or Europe for a safe legal abortion. Most of them hope brown people die in back alley abortions they are forced to get

Or intellectually dishonest people like you want to keep the brown and black population in check by reducing the number of live births.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [patentattorney] [ In reply to ]
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patentattorney wrote:

My personal opinion is that elective abortions should happen before 12 weeks. If there is a medical issue with the infant, you get around 48 hours to make a decision. If the mothers life is at risk, then you can get the procedure done. (I think this is the European model).


Well that's rational. Ergo unacceptable
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
Ask him who has responsibility for the care/feeding/$$$ once it's born. .

Its not even just this, it is also medical expenses. 2 years ago the GOP let funding for CHIP (child health insurance funding) lapse.

If you really cared about the health of children, this program would be something you would never let lapse. You cant in one breath say you care about the decision of the unborn child, and then when the child is 2 (still can survive on its own) say maybe this child shouldnt have health care.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
These idiots... Fucking religion...

Well it is Alabama.

https://www.al.com/...nd-worst-states.html
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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So I disagree with this law.

However the way our country is designed to work no one should object to the law. If the people of Alabama want this to be the law of their state so be it, they have to deal with the consequences.

There is no Constitutional right to abortion. Anyone who cites to Roe either doesn't undertand the ruling or is intellectually dishonest.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"And the pro-life side would take issue with you framing this as if only the woman's body is involved in an abortion. "

You make a lot of good points, Slowguy, regarding both sides of the argument.

Most of the people, however, on the pro-life side of the argument don't display that they care much about life at all, while they do display that they care an awful lot about controlling people. So its a hard pill to swallow to say that this is about the right to life of a collection of non-sentient self replicating cells in a woman's womb.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqbmqAtlMUE/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

I'm not sure what the answer is. I have a serious problem with men telling women what they can do with their bodies

The piece of art outside this hospital in Qatar shows 14 stages from conception to birth

I think it's impossible to argue that in the initial stages that life is viable on its own

What's the earliest premie babies survive? 20 something weeks?

I'd buy the argument that outside of a life threatening condition to the mother that would result in her death after a fetus / baby could survive outside the womb abortions should be bannned

Prior to that though its difficult to make the case a living sustainable organism is being killed

We could probably settle this with science. So if the science was settled and the consensus viability age was 22.739 weeks, would you be OK banning abortion from that time on?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [patentattorney] [ In reply to ]
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Does Alabama allow Plan B birth control? Does this only apply to surgical abortions? Are IUD's now illegal? What about travel to states where it is legal? Would abortificients like RU486 be illegal? I see the majority party in Alabama being fully convinced on this issue, without being convincing. Regardless of one's opinion on the legality of abortion, we are blindly replaying the early 1800's in an approach to a political dissolution of this Union.
Last edited by: oldandslow: May 15, 19 6:52
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
"And the pro-life side would take issue with you framing this as if only the woman's body is involved in an abortion. "

You make a lot of good points, Slowguy, regarding both sides of the argument.

Most of the people, however, on the pro-life side of the argument don't display that they care much about life at all, while they do display that they care an awful lot about controlling people.

How do you arrive at that hypothesis?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Greg66] [ In reply to ]
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"FWIW I regard phrases such as "the right to life of the unborn child" as unhelpful if one wants to have a dispassionate debate about an emotive subject like this. For me, unless the unborn child is viable ex-utero, it has no "right" to life. The conjoined twins example is interesting, but conjoined twins tend to be mutually dependent, rather than there being one who is wholly dependent on another, and the other being able to survive independently if separated. So I don't think it offers much for this debate. "

But even a child that is viable, or a child carried to full term, cannot survive "on its own". So I don't get the distinction of inside and outside the uterus. We are still talking a living being that cannot survive on its own.

When our first daughter was born we spent some time in neonatal intensive care. The smallest delivery there was under a pound, delivered at 16 weeks. I don't know what the outcome was, as we were in and out quite quickly. Medicine can make very early deliveries viable these days, but often the resulting child has long term developmental issues.

So is that a reason to kill it?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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907Tri wrote:
I just had this discussion with a friend.

His whole argument stems from once a life is created, that life has rights. Fairly enough he then asked the question with that is when do you believe life is created.

I asked about rape and his answer was that he believes it is then the womens responsibility to give birth to that life as that life has rights. My reply was who has more "power" in their rights, an unborn child or a women who has "x" age, etc. He said it's the womens responsibility.

My take from that was when a women is born they inherit certain responsibilities no matter what happens to them. I simply disagree.

FWIW he is a conservative christian. I don't believe he is wrong at all, just that his opinions are vastly different from me.

Did you ask your friend about what happens to the man who went in without protection? Women don’t get pregnant without the man so what are his responsibilities for the negligent dissemination of the insemination?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [bluemonkeytri] [ In reply to ]
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Clearly tongue in cheek, but what if all the daughters of those representatives voting for this were suddenly the victims of rape?

How many high dollar cover up procedures you think would be had versus kids born?

Going to make it illegal to masturbate and shoot hundreds of kids down the shower drain? God killed that one guy for spilling his stuff instead of impregnating his sister in law.

I think we're out in left field these days. Got folks voting for this. Got folks wanting free college and a guaranteed $1000/month income. Just all sorts of crazy.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. I'd agree to a time, be it 12, 24 or whatever science determines is a viable limit

I'd also agree that that's reviewed as medical treatments improve viability from earlier dates
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [bluemonkeytri] [ In reply to ]
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I think the earliest child birth survival outside of the womb is 22 weeks.
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