Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Free Coaching Advice Wanted
Quote | Reply
I'm a self-coached, MOP athlete and currently training for my first full IM at the end of July. I'm a horrible swimmer (1:50/100), decent biker and decent runner. I'm also married with 2 young kids so my training time needs to be efficient. I'm current doing on average 3 runs a week based on a 3 hr marathon plan I found online.

M: Tempo (at 6:40 pace). Currently running 3 miles @ tempo but plan builds to 12 miles. Average run 7-8 miles.
W: 800's (at 6:00 pace). Currently a 3 but builds to sets of 10. Average run 7-8 miles.
F: Long Run. More focused on time. Gets up to 2:30 running with some tempo miles towards the end.

I'm probably giving more detail on the plan than you care to know, but all 3 of these workouts leave me pretty sore the next day. I normally also do a swim in the morning before all 3 of these workouts. What I'm wondering is if I'm biking Tues, Thurs, and Sat, should these bike workouts also be hard or should I bike more as a recovery ride in order to get ready for the next days run. My Tues/Thurs rides last about an hour and Sat I can get about 2 hrs in (for now). I plan on riding longer as I get a few months out from race day.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You run way too hard.

strava
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [Alabama Viking] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm trying to follow a 3 hr marathon plan in hopes of being able to run around a 3:30. Seems in concept like a good idea, no?
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
I'm trying to follow a 3 hr marathon plan in hopes of being able to run around a 3:30. Seems in concept like a good idea, no?

TXAgeGrouper,

To answer this question directly - no, I would argue it's not a good idea for training for your triathlon, and it's not a good idea if you were just training for a marathon. In order to address how your training should be rolled out a coach would need to first identify your goal for this triathlon.

Secondly, you would benefit GREATLY from having a coach, a real coach who would guide your training in a comprehensive manner all the way through your season: protect you from getting injured, avoid wasting time so that you'd have maximum time being a great parent (and, presumably, spouse), bring your swim down to something like, perhaps 1:30/100 pace, put more focus where it needs to be (and herein lies the free Easter egg of this post) your cycling, dial in your nutrition, and more. What has to be acknowledged is that that kind of guidance is valued and deserves to be invested in....much like the $700 that you paid for the entry.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I'm all about athletes mastering triathlon
Twitter - @TriCoachIan
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Is the goal to run a fast marathon or is it to do the fastest possible Ironman?

Neo-pro triathlete

https://www.instagram.com/nicolaiwium/
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [NicolaiWium] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ian, I don't disagree that a coach would be beneficial but I'm not sure the cost/benefit is justifiable at this point for me. I plan on dialing up my biking significantly as I get about 3 months out and going back to my original question, I was looking to get a coach's (or someone who has more knowledge than I do about training) opinion if what I'm doing made sense or should be altered.

In terms of my race goal, it's to have the overall best time. I've somewhat conceded that my swim won't be great and therefore I don't think putting the majority of my training time into swimming to potentially save 5-10 mins makes sense. I'll make sure I'm fit enough to finish the swim and not be completely cooked, and then try have have a strong bike and run.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TXAgeGrouper wrote:


M: Tempo (at 6:40 pace). Currently running 3 miles @ tempo but plan builds to 12 miles. Average run 7-8 miles.
W: 800's (at 6:00 pace). Currently a 3 but builds to sets of 10. Average run 7-8 miles.
F: Long Run. More focused on time. Gets up to 2:30 running with some tempo miles towards the end.

I'm probably giving more detail on the plan than you care to know, but all 3 of these workouts leave me pretty sore the next day.


So....3 runs a week for a total of maybe 30 miles? I don't do IM, but that looks like a shit plan to me. Drop ALL the tempo so you aren't sore and risking injury. Run more, run easier, and run more often. Honestly, that doesn't even look like a good plan for a marathon.

I think you'd be better off with just about ANY canned IM triathlon plan. Go buy one from D3 or EN or someone for $100 or whatever.

ETA: the above wasn't intended as a slight to full-service coaching (such as Ian). Only as another stop on the continuum between full-service, and going solo.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Feb 19, 19 11:25
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TXAgeGrouper wrote:
Ian, I don't disagree that a coach would be beneficial but I'm not sure the cost/benefit is justifiable at this point for me. I plan on dialing up my biking significantly as I get about 3 months out and going back to my original question, I was looking to get a coach's (or someone who has more knowledge than I do about training) opinion if what I'm doing made sense or should be altered.

In terms of my race goal, it's to have the overall best time. I've somewhat conceded that my swim won't be great and therefore I don't think putting the majority of my training time into swimming to potentially save 5-10 mins makes sense. I'll make sure I'm fit enough to finish the swim and not be completely cooked, and then try have have a strong bike and run.


ianpeace is a really well known, very experienced triathlon coach who has coached many AGers and world-class elites successfully. I think he would qualify as the type of person you want input from, and sounds like he gave it to you.

His advice is literally spot-on, as I'll repast word for word:

"To answer this question directly - no, I would argue it's not a good idea for training for your triathlon, and it's not a good idea if you were just training for a marathon. In order to address how your training should be rolled out a coach would need to first identify your goal for this triathlon. "

And to make it even more apparent why he'd say something like that, quite a few sub 2:45 marathon runners who make the jump to IM get crushed on the run, with 3:45+ hr IM runs. Obviously this has nothing to do with their lack of running prowess/background, and everything to do with overbiking for their bike fitness, and just as importantly, underestimating how much of a toll a 80-120 min swim takes on them with their lack of swim background and huge underemphasis on swimming. Going in with poor swim fitness doesn't just lose you 10-15mins on the swim, it loses you 3-5x that in the back end of the race.

I'll also recomend you do what Tom_hampton recommends above - get ANY plan (or better yet, several of them - you can buy 3-4 books on Amazon with full IM plans for like $80 total) and pick one that suits you ability and schedule. If your training looks really wacky compared to their recs (am I'm sure it does, with 3 hard tempo runs per week which NO plan I've seen recommend), you probably should reconfigure.
Last edited by: lightheir: Feb 19, 19 11:40
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sounds like you need to rethink your approach to the importance of the swim to having a strong run.

Inside The Big Ring Podcast, Interviews with Ironman Champions, Kona Qualifiers, and Training Tips


Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In my last ironman I ran a 3:36, so close to your target. Typical running week would look like:

Tuesday: track workout - 1-2 miles easy warmup. 5 miles hard work - could be 400's, could be 5x1mile... depends. The fastest stuff I would do would usually be like 5:50-6:00 pace. 1 mile cool down.

Thursday: On bike-focus weeks, easy 30 minutes at like 8:00 to 8:15 pace. On Run-focus week, 90 minutes with 10 minutes easy warmup, 6x (30" fast (like around 6:30) 30" easy), then into 20 minutes around 7:20. 10 minutes easy, then repeat. Finish out easy.

Sunday - on bike-focus weeks, after a 5 hour ride on Saturday, I'd do 4 hours on Sunday followed by a 30 minute run at around 8:00 pace. Run-focus weeks I would do 90 minutes at 7:45-8:15 pace depending on how I felt. As the race gets closer this run gets up to 2 hours. I never run longer than 2 hours in training.

For reference, my PR 5k is 17:58 and PR 10k is 38:22, both set recently. That Ironman run was a year prior.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
VeloVetta is developing AERO cycling shoes with CFD and wind tunnel testing.
InstagramFacebook
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Run focused weeks and bike focused weeks is a great idea! I've also PM'd Ian and will look for some pre-canned training plans as suggested. Thanks again all! Learning from others that have been in my shoes and have had similar growing pains is extremely helpful.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Like the others said, no. I did it kinda that way first time around, and I finished, but definitely could've been better.
I see where you can't or want to shell out money for a coach, but there's definitely some good books, and some good general training threads, and also some good training plans, from coaches as well as Trainingpeaks etc. I'd say read a bit more, because this way you're going to get hurt, or best case scenario you'll be tired every day and underperform.
I think learning smart training is actually part of the fun. So enjoy the ride. (run). (swim).

strava
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
May I ask what your bike training looks like?

How much time and how many hard sessions per week do you do for the bike?
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [chrissie1993] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chrissie1993 wrote:
May I ask what your bike training looks like?

How much time and how many hard sessions per week do you do for the bike?

I mostly just pick a training session on Zwift based on how much time I have. I rarely just cruise around aimlessly anymore which means my workouts are hard. On weekends I try get at least 2 hours on Zwift but I know I need to do more long rides (and get outside) which I'll have the time to start doing about 3 months out from my race.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I hope Ian gives you good guidance. Someone mentioned it but following a specific triathlon plan would be better for you as it hopefully takes into account all of the training your doing versus the stand alone plans that dont take into account. It would appear from what you've written that you're simply doing too much each week. One is the reason for picking separate plans, second could be the fear of doing your first Ironman. Keep in mind that your Ironman "marathon" off the bike will be much different than how you are currently training for it.

Inside The Big Ring Podcast, Interviews with Ironman Champions, Kona Qualifiers, and Training Tips


Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I plan my athletes to have hard days on bike and run on the same day.
Typically hard trainer ride in AM. Running hard first thing in the morning generally is not comfortable.
Hard run lunch or after work time frame.

The following day is swim only or a VERY easy bike spin.

There are some build weeks where I stack two hard days, but no more than that to allow recovery for the long stuff on the weekends.

Also the definition of a hard bike depends on the athlete and their race schedule. Am Olympic triathlete is doing different hard workouts than my IM athletes.

Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
https://setthepacetriathlon.com/offseason2019b - sign up for my off season webinar
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You are asking for free advice on a complicated subject that generally people pay for. You did receive some excellent advice, but I would really strongly consider hiring a coach. You think the cost to benefit isn't there, but you are a textbook case of why a coach is a good idea: someone with a full time job and a family, trying to squeeze in as much quality training as possible given your life constraints, attempting to put some measure of speed down at an Ironman. Your self-coaching approach, as you described it, is more likely to get you injured rather than across the finish line. Or if you don't manage to hurt yourself you might be finding yourself suffering through a 5 hour run wondering why your sub-3 training didn't cut it.

Ironman is not a marathon. It includes a 26.2 mile run, but that run is NOT a marathon. You can't train for a marathon and expect results at an Ironman.

Also there is massive value in improving your swim. It is a rather large fallacy to think that the ONLY benefit to improving your swim is a few minutes saved on the front of the race. Again, an Ironman isn't a swim race, it isn't a bike race, and it isn't a marathon. It is a complete triathlon and everything on race day builds from the first swim stroke. In reality successfully completing an Ironman in July really builds on what you are doing right NOW in February. The better your swim, the more efficient you are in the water, the more energy is saved and the better off your bike, and your run later in the day will be. You can't neglect a swim thinking because it's your weakest event that it doesn't matter.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
As a fellow self coached athlete here, I will echo what others have said.

First, that's too much run intensity. Your first IM, just focus on the distance, I would argue all the runs should be easy.. Maybe some race pace tempo, but mostly easy. Do the hard work on the bike, I'd argue that a 60 min high effort ride is better than a 90-120 min shop ride.

Secondly, the swim. I hate swimming too, but it is a low impact workout. You can do tons of volume and it is very hard to over do it and get injured. It isn't just swim that you are improving, you are building cardio, and doing it without wear and tear on your joints. As others have said, being in better swim shape will pay off in spades in the back half of the marathon.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I see tempo, tempo, tempo, fast pace goals, sore the next day... You are far too focused on run training metrics, which won't be helpful if you aren't focused on swim and bike results first. You won't be able to run well at all if you aren't already a great swimmer and biker.

An alternative strategy is to apply all this thinking to your swim and bike training, and just let go of the tight grip on running and just go out and jog easier and more frequently. Until your super easy jog pace is an 8 min/mile or better for 40+ miles a week. When it's that fast with that kind of volume, you can easy jog the marathon and average an 8:30 pace, which is actually really fast for an age grouper.

Or whatever... :)
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I know it's a complicated subject and I've also had enough awful races (Oly/70.3) to know that I'm not training for a marathon. I plan on getting some swim coaching and the suggestions I've received thus far, such as having a hard bike and run on the same day followed by a recovery day and also having big run weeks followed by big bike weeks is exactly the help and advice I was looking for. I've explored coaches in the past and while I don't doubt a good coach would be beneficial, financially it's not in cards for me at the moment. Between race fees, accommodations, shipping my bike, etc, and of course this not being my only hobby, I can't justify another potentially couple of thousand $. Of course this may change in a year or 2, but for now I'm appreciative and receptive to the free feedback some of you have provided.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
At this point in your tri journey, pick up a generic long distance triathlon plan from a reputable source, and stay away from a single-sport specific plan, such as your "3-hour marathon plan," that you hope to weave into your triathlon training.

And do not stop crowdsourcing advice from our helpful, knowledgeable, and generous peanut gallery.

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TriJayhawkRyan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TriJayhawkRyan wrote:
I plan my athletes to have hard days on bike and run on the same day.
Typically hard trainer ride in AM. Running hard first thing in the morning generally is not comfortable.
Hard run lunch or after work time frame.

Hmm....that type of scheduling (hard B/R -> S) REALLY compromises my swimming. I need a minimum of a full 24 hrs of separation between hard bike/run and a quality swim. A recovery swim, sure fine....but, if I'm swimming for pace/time...I cannot have a tired core or legs.

So, I swim hard in the morning, then bike/run hard in the afternoon/evening. Sometimes I stack all three, but the swim ALWAYS comes first and then its maximum recovery until the next swim.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TXAgeGrouper wrote:
I've explored coaches in the past and while I don't doubt a good coach would be beneficial, financially it's not in cards for me at the moment. Between race fees, accommodations, shipping my bike, etc, and of course this not being my only hobby, I can't justify another potentially couple of thousand $. Of course this may change in a year or 2, but for now I'm appreciative and receptive to the free feedback some of you have provided.

A middle ground you might not have considered, most coaches offer a consultant rate where you pay them for a couple hours of their time where they review where you are and where you want to go and help you put together an outline of a plan that you can fill in later, on your own. Something like this might bridge the gap between being completely self coached and being fully coached. Additionally, there are a lot of great books out there (80/20 triathlon by Fitzgerald or Fast-Track Triathlete by Dixon, amongst others) that could be super helpful.
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I followed exactly this running training plan for a standalone marathon last year (to go sub 3h on 3 days a week) and completely blew up and got injured. Im not saying it will happen to you but it is a hardcore plan without any recovery week (if I remember well volume and intensity keep going up).
Quote Reply
Re: Free Coaching Advice Wanted [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I love you man!

It all depends on what your goal(s) are. To finish at the point where you say to yourself "that was a good race" (which I've only kinda done once in 5 IM's).

Then, as a few posts (#17 comes to mind), you don't swim fast for saving xx minutes, but to feel like you're jumping on the bike with a warmup already done. Then, riding for hours and hours and feeling that OK, I can handle a marathon - without dying.

All tough to do and put together in a "package"

I'll leave you with something many ST'ers know but don't seem to mention...

Minimize your weaknesses while not sacrificing your strengths (maximizing strengths at the same time is "unusual").

Enjoy the journey. (I'll add that this journey is NOT easy, so, you can know you're going to places that not that many others venture, ST'ers excepted)


I could break the course record - theoretically, Bishop Pickering - from the movie "Caddyshack"
Quote Reply

Prev Next