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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
I’m well aware of scientific method and how to properly use it but there’s also lab results and real world results. Since we do not live in a controlled environment real world results are also important.....
I've seen this sort of comment fairly frequently and I think on most occassions its incorrect.
If the suggestion is that the lab testing is not a sufficiently good model of reality to produce representative data - there may be a valid argument. But, to say we don't live in a controlled environment and therefore tests in a controlled environment are less informative than field testing is a mis-understanding of the entire purpose of controlled testing.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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4W latex tubes, 10W good tire vs mediocre tire, 5W dry chain lube vs factory grease, 5-15W for a good aero helmet, etc... all of these are "overrated" on their own but next time you do an Ironman just go push an extra 30-40W to go the same speed and see what happens.

What's your CdA?
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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What about tubeless
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [trailerhouse] [ In reply to ]
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trailerhouse wrote:
4W latex tubes, 10W good tire vs mediocre tire, 5W dry chain lube vs factory grease, 5-15W for a good aero helmet, etc... all of these are "overrated" on their own but next time you do an Ironman just go push an extra 30-40W to go the same speed and see what happens.

I get your point. Also I would like to note that latex tubes are the lowest amount of watts for (in the course of a lifetime) probably the most money. Paraffin is super cheap, like super super cheap (but like latex tubes I’d personally only do right before an A race). Helmets can be found cheap if you’re not picky. Tires it gets tricky but bit good sales and use training tires. To me personally, after getting a 3rd mystery flat in one year at $13 a piece I decided I was done. Latex is an Ironman only deal for me. I’m actually a little surprised I’m the only one.

I still lapped everyone on the couch!
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
Jloewe wrote:
I’m well aware of scientific method and how to properly use it but there’s also lab results and real world results. Since we do not live in a controlled environment real world results are also important.....
I've seen this sort of comment fairly frequently and I think on most occassions its incorrect.
If the suggestion is that the lab testing is not a sufficiently good model of reality to produce representative data - there may be a valid argument. But, to say we don't live in a controlled environment and therefore tests in a controlled environment are less informative than field testing is a mis-understanding of the entire purpose of controlled testing.

I don’t mean to say that lab results are useless but more that they’re exaggerated. Even if the data is 100% spot on that result is not going to carry all the way to the real world. If I find a way to make a car 50% more efficient on a closed track taking it out into the Wild you’re never going to get close to those results. It’s the same with everything we use on the course. If you’re getting 15W in the wind tunnel you’re getting <15W in the wild.

I studied a lot of science in college. One of the drawbacks of a controlled environment is that we don’t live in a controlled environment therefore our real world results will always be deminished. Whether it’s the amount of theoretical watts gained by a new piece of gear or the training effect of a new technique. Once you start including real life scenarios the effect is always deminished. The real world where we face wind, and hills, and traffic. Where the road isn’t always even. That’s what I mean. Any lab results are inflated by the controlled environment. Especially rolling resistance and aero properties. Particularly because of velocity.

Prime example... look at Garmin battery or car MPG. Most people, unless they go specifically out of their way don’t get anywhere close to what was advertised because of too many factors.

I still lapped everyone on the couch!
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
Even if the data is 100% spot on that result is not going to carry all the way to the real world.

Lab testing may always have some bias, but that bias isn't always in the same direction vs. "the real world". A case could be made that smooth roller testing underestimates the benefits of latex tubes. The purported mechanism of benefit is that latex takes less energy to deform. So the more deformation taking place, the more benefit vs. butyl. And the real world likely has much rougher surfaces, on average, than a roller drum. So possibly more benefit in the real world.

Some people have done bumpy roller testing, but I couldn't immediately find it.

So you're right, in general, about lab testing vs. reality often having some bias or error, but possibly picked a bad example.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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I’m happy to grab 4-5 watts in 6-7 areas (not the least of which is training) which suddenly adds up and is very noticeable. And, Unless your butyl tubes are free, your math is fuzzy....are latex more expensive? Yes, but butyl costs money too.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
trailerhouse wrote:
4W latex tubes, 10W good tire vs mediocre tire, 5W dry chain lube vs factory grease, 5-15W for a good aero helmet, etc... all of these are "overrated" on their own but next time you do an Ironman just go push an extra 30-40W to go the same speed and see what happens.

I get your point. Also I would like to note that latex tubes are the lowest amount of watts for (in the course of a lifetime) probably the most money. Paraffin is super cheap, like super super cheap (but like latex tubes I’d personally only do right before an A race). Helmets can be found cheap if you’re not picky. Tires it gets tricky but bit good sales and use training tires. To me personally, after getting a 3rd mystery flat in one year at $13 a piece I decided I was done. Latex is an Ironman only deal for me. I’m actually a little surprised I’m the only one.

I believe if you’re not too picky on helmets, you might find yourself in one that is SLOWER

If you would’ve said “i am cheap, I don’t want to buy latex” instead of “latex doesn’t generate cheap $/w benefit” this would be relevant

But now, you’re just digging deeper and deeper
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you ride 100psi?
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [rubik] [ In reply to ]
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rubik wrote:
Over rated?

I'd assert they're the most under-rated and under-utilized technical performance piece available and have the highest bang-for-the-buck.

I certainly felt faster riding them, but that could be confirmation bias, I suppose. The only trouble I have is that I kept popping my front tire. I thought I was cleaning the rim enough, I also might have been over-inflating?! I don't know...I did get pretty good at changing a tire by the side of the road, so they were good for that.

Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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A couple of things:

* You do need to inflate the latex tubes before every ride. If you don't, you'll be riding them with ~10psi less pressure, which will likely be much slower.

* Trying riding with latex/butyl on rollers. Spin them up to the same speed. I guarantee you won't even need a powermeter to tell the difference. You'll know within a minute or two.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
But for local races and training not worth the hassle for me. Just wondering if I’m alone in that feeling.

I guess I don't understand the hassle you're referring to. Hassel of inflating tires before each ride? Don't you check your tires often anyway? What am I missing?

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Jloewe wrote:
....I don’t mean to say that lab results are useless but more that they’re exaggerated. Even if the data is 100% spot on that result is not going to carry all the way to the real world. If I find a way to make a car 50% more efficient on a closed track taking it out into the Wild you’re never going to get close to those results. It’s the same with everything we use on the course. If you’re getting 15W in the wind tunnel you’re getting <15W in the wild.

I studied a lot of science in college. One of the drawbacks of a controlled environment is that we don’t live in a controlled environment therefore our real world results will always be deminished. Whether it’s the amount of theoretical watts gained by a new piece of gear or the training effect of a new technique. Once you start including real life scenarios the effect is always deminished. The real world where we face wind, and hills, and traffic. Where the road isn’t always even. That’s what I mean. Any lab results are inflated by the controlled environment. Especially rolling resistance and aero properties. Particularly because of velocity.

Prime example... look at Garmin battery or car MPG. Most people, unless they go specifically out of their way don’t get anywhere close to what was advertised because of too many factors.

Okay, let's use this example.
Since Garmin watches neither store the same amount of usable energy, nor use the same amount of power in all configurations and conditions, any single figure can only be representative and based on a bunch of assumptions. That's not a weakness in controlled testing, it's simply the world not being as simple as you may like. There's a difference.
The same goes for car fuel economy figures. In both cases you can assume the manufacturer selects test cases for advertisements that provide favourable figures and cast the product in a positive light. You are therefore likely to see worse figures in your own use. That's selective data use by manufacturers, not a weakness in controlled testing.

I really think you're misinterpreting incorrect application of the data from controlled testing, as a flaw in test methods. This is inaccurate. In fact what you're observing is a flaw in application.

It is certainly not possible to determine the veracity or applicability of controlled test data for variables of this scale via uncontrolled field testing, especially when you don't have a means of measuring the more critical parameters.
Last edited by: Ai_1: Feb 20, 19 1:37
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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CCF wrote:
Jloewe wrote:
But for local races and training not worth the hassle for me. Just wondering if I’m alone in that feeling.

I guess I don't understand the hassle you're referring to. Hassel of inflating tires before each ride? Don't you check your tires often anyway? What am I missing?

It’s a bit more of a hassle to put them in. At least for me it was. They’re floppy and have to be powedered. I can’t just throw them on race wheels because I don’t have race wheel money. For me and a couple others we had an increase in flats, I also change my tires before a race. Even if I did use all alrounders there’s still the hassle of changing regular flats. But hey different strokes for different folks.

To some of us if we spend even $1 more dollar there had better be a clear and present difference. I’m one of those people. I can’t afford a visit to the wind tunnel, or at the moment a power meter. So I work with what I have. I personally feel that if I can’t see a difference in real world velocity, or feel a difference in road feel that I guess it’s probably not worth the extra money. It’s also why I run a 10speed. It’s why I bought an A2 when I needed a new helmet. It’s why I’m not buying more expensive latex tubes when the butyl ones work just fine. They’re not making my ride anymore enjoyable, and they’re not earning me a PR, and they’re not earning me a podium. So in my estimation why bother?

When I put on race tires as oppose to heavy training tires by the time I’ve ridden around the corner I can feel and see I’m faster. Same with my A2. I can confirm it through strava segments and a faster overall velocity. If I rode that same ride 10 times the 5 on each the stats would be lopsided.

I still lapped everyone on the couch!
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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after getting a 3rd mystery flat in one year at $13 a piece I decided I was done.


I've never flatted. Still on the original latex tubes I bought. I actually am now wondering how long are they good for. I probably need to change my rim tape at the very least.

On price, I see a site selling latex for 7.99 right now. That's like 2 dollars more than butyl at best. Even at full price, it's still not fair to say 15 a piece. It's really the cost difference that's the factor. And it's more like 7-8 bucks more than butyl per tube. And for maybe 1 or 2 flats a year (that was my rate with butyl, again no flats in 2 years on latex), that's not a huge cost.

I haven't switched back to butyl in a long time, but do recall the first ride with latex feeling significantly different (for a inner tube change that is). We have a paved brick section leaving my neighborhood and the tires just reacted differently under me. Nothing that I can feel speed wise, but research shows it's there. So with less flats, better feel, and minimal cost difference......I just dont see the reason not to.

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They’re floppy and have to be powedered.

Never powdered them. On the same tubes, but changed tires like 3 times on HED jet+ rims that are notoriously difficult to get tires on. It does take more patience than butyl, but certainly no a show stopper. I was actually pretty anal about checking my butyl tubes before inflating too. With latex, I just take a little more time. Nothing special, just time and spot checking to make sure there is no tube pinched under the bead before inflating.
Last edited by: KG6: Feb 20, 19 4:02
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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Haven't tried latex tubes but I have to say that picking up even just 5W for (almost) free sounds intriguing. I am mostly concerned about the - allegedly - reduced puncture resistance. It would take a lot of watts to regain the time I might lose when changing a flat. Then again, I wonder how big an effect the tube has on puncture resistance. After all: Once something punctures your tire it should easily be ably to puncture a much thinner tube or am overlooking something here?
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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I used latex for a couple of years and have returned to butyl because I am lazy and I like an 80mm stem. :-)

All my spare tubes that I carry on the bike for long self-sustained training courses are also butyl with 80mm stem (Flo 60s front and rear) so that if I flat I can change it roadside much faster. Once I ran out of latex tubes from my first order I simply went back to buying butyl from local stores. None of the bike shops that I visit carry latex. Again most of my choice is out of laziness and convenience.

I have a decent array of stem extenders, but do wish someone made a latex with 80mm stems.
To anyone reading, If there are some on the market now please let me know.


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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
Why do you ride 100psi?

This!! We need an answer to this question. I read this whole thread baffled as to how that early comment was ignored.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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I ride them everyday and cry if for some reason I have to put a butyl tube in.
They simply ride way nicer and if you don't feel this I can only imagine you are numb.

The only disadvantage to latex is that if you store one for a couple of years in a saddle bag waiting to be used is that they can dry out and crack.
Inside a tyre they can last many years and because there are no seams they are extremely easy to patch should you have too.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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has it occured to you yet that maybe you lack the talent, brains, and manual dexterity needed for latex tubes?

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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
has it occured to you yet that maybe you lack the talent, brains, and manual dexterity needed for latex tubes?

Totally has. In which case it would still make sense to switch back.

I still lapped everyone on the couch!
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [PBT_2009] [ In reply to ]
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PBT_2009 wrote:
mvenneta wrote:
Why do you ride 100psi?

This!! We need an answer to this question. I read this whole thread baffled as to how that early comment was ignored.

Because I’m fat

https://www.bicycling.com/...-bike-tire-pressure/

I still lapped everyone on the couch!
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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I understand where you are coming from. I've had the same thoughts as well.

Yes, CRR gains are small from latex tubes but it's just a part of everything you do to be faster. 4-5 watts is what I've seen out of both tires combined, is it worth it? I can see where some would decide it's not.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Dembo] [ In reply to ]
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Dembo wrote:
....I am mostly concerned about the - allegedly - reduced puncture resistance....
I'm not aware of any evidence that the puncture more easily, except as a result of careless installation (rim tape issues or caught between rim and tyre). In fact I'd expect them to resist punctures much better than butyl under some circumstances and I'm not alone in that belief. I've been using latex on my tri bike for over 2.5 years. The original tubes are still in there and have never punctured. I don't use sealant. My road bike is fitted with butyl since the one disadvantage I know of for latex is decreased heat resistance. I used my road bike for an Alpine sportive a while back that had some massive descents on it. I'm a bit over 80kg and wasn't sure if I'd find myself dragging my brakes for long periods (I generally don't but on an unfamiliar route with lots of other bikes, it was a bit of an unknown). next time I change tyres, I'll put latex on there too.
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Re: Am I the only one that finds latex overrated? [Jloewe] [ In reply to ]
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I feel like you’re just seeking attention / trolling

Optimal PSI isn’t only based on weight. And that article doesn’t contemplate different psi for different tires, wheels, road conditions, etc

One of the benefits of latex is you can run lower psi, which makes a smoother ride, with similar / better crr

Besides your nonsensical testing protocol, illogical arguments and lack of using data over gut feel - you might not be “feeling” the benefit due to thin tires, probably narrow wheels if i had to guess and high psi
Last edited by: mvenneta: Feb 20, 19 5:39
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