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Re: Racing with a snorkel [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

Hello
like Monty and Tim, I'm surprised by your doc request.
The main reason is that from most studies, swimming is requesting much less air than biking and running, at same muscle effort level. Because arm muscles are lighter than legs muscles ? Because lack of access to air push anaerobic ?
Apparantly, from research studies, elite swimmers only use 3 liters oxygen per minute at 4mmol/L lactate (1 hour max effort), vs 4,5 liters for bikers.

At 52 years old, with my average lungs and heart and blood, I can't support 4.5 liters for an hour (neither 5mn), but 3 liters is OK.
And with my small swimming muscles (if I do not overuse my legs), 1.5 liter is probably enough.

Consequence is that swimming is putting less pressure on lungs and cardio system than biking and running.

Personally I noticed that on both breathing and BPM.

On the other side :
yes, in tri, I probably swim at a lactate level higher than bike and run, as it is a shorter part.
maybe snorkel giving constant access to air is better for you. Necessary ?

Either you want to follow your doc, and tri "pre DSQ", or you can test normal breathing (maybe limiting leg use) and see another doc with swimming experience ?

Hope you will find solution to overcome the issue. Good luck !

I find this hard to believe. My HR is just as high at end of the swim in an Oly Dist race as it is at end of the run, e.g. about 90-95% of max HR. And, if swimmers were truly using only 2/3 the O2 of BR guys, then how come they burn so many frigging calories??? AFAIK, calorie burn is directly proportional to O2 usage. Phelps allegedly ate 12,000 cal/day, which is no doubt an exaggeration, but OTOH I bet MP and other top swimmers do eat 7000-8000/day when in heavy training. I am suspicious of the validity of the flume-based measurements for swimming b/c it would be almost impossible to swim all out with all those wires and tubes attached to you. I suspect the guys/girls in the studies can go much harder with "no strings attached", so to speak. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Hello


I was surprised when I found the study and its results, but it explained what I experiment personally.
Last edited by: Pyrenean Wolf: Jan 14, 19 2:46
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [Forward Bias] [ In reply to ]
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Forward Bias wrote:
In the pool I am slower with a snorkel.

I assume this is due to added hydrodynamic resistance.

If you're competing with me in a race please use a snorkel.

Someone spent 30 days in the ICU which left them with 70% lung function and your first thought is about beating them at a race. Nice
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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I suspect it's because you're horizontal so it's easier for your heart to pump blood throughout the body. Cycling/ running your heart has to work harder to get blood out of your feet. No scientific basis for this, just a thought i had.
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Hello

can't find the study again, but this one give similar results, see figure 1 :

https://www.researchgate.net/...AFTER_FRANCAUX_MODEL

Bikers : measured on ergometer cycle (not in this study, figures from another study referenced)
Swimmers : similar results from ergometer cycle test and real swimming tests (both done, from this study and another). For real swimming, only blood test done, no oxygen masks.

Swimmers tested are Olympic team level, apparently.

4mmol/L (approx Lactate threshold) is reached :
- between 3 and 3.5 O2 L/mn for swimmers
- 4.5 L/mn for bikers.

Very significant difference !

Several possible explanations :

1) mass muscle involved in swimming is lower (if not overusing legs) leading to less pressure on cardio-vascular system

2) swimmers tested have a more "sprinter profile".
I found another study comparing runners : marathoners vs sprinters, and marathoners typical lactate curves are similar to bikers (no surprise here) while sprinter typical lactate curve move up much earlier (no surprise again, less aerobic capacity).
However, 800m or 1500m swimming is not "sprinting", more like pursuit or a short TT. So this cannot explain the difference.

3) up to you...
Last edited by: Pyrenean Wolf: Jan 14, 19 4:21
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [RoostBooster] [ In reply to ]
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RoostBooster wrote:
Snorkels add more dead space (the volume of a breath that doesn't participate in gas exchange). This causes you to breathe in a higher percentage of carbon dioxide than ambient air would have. THAT is what primarily increases the work of breathing when using a snorkel. Unless your doc is a pulmonologist, I doubt they'd consider this.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12740732

You could exhale through your nose while using a snorkel for swimming. Or, you can use the powerbreather snorkel, which vents your exhale out the mouthpiece instead of pushing it back up the snorkel.
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [bufordt] [ In reply to ]
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Correct, the Powerbreather snorkels bring O2 in the top vents and you exhale CO2 out the bottom, so it's always fresh air. You can also get different resistance like medium and power to help simulate hypoxic training which of course is subject to debate with many coaches. I've found swimming with the Powerbreather to translate to my other sports.
https://www.powerbreatherusa.com/pages/compare-chart
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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or......due to less o2 coming in via breathing, they go anaerobic sooner and as a result lactate builds up more quickly.

i am having this problem currently......still breathing in same amount of air as before(cycling) but not able to push as much o2 through the system as before due to degradation of heart function(hopefully still recovering). i go into o2 debt sooner now than i did before heart surgery

try cycling to peak performance while breathing at a swimming rate and see when you hit 4mmol
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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You missed my point. Sorry I was subtle.


People who criticize others who use snorkels in competition should consider how restrictive they are.


I believe using a snorkel is a disadvantage, hence it's silly to criticize others for using a snorkel.

We have this discussion periodically when someone is aghast that USAT allows snorkels.
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I though about this also.

But from the graph they can go up to 4L/mn O2.

So, this might happen (not sure however) for high volume of air intake, at higher power output.

But at lower level (below 4mmol/L for exemple) that can't be the case. If they can push a maximum of 4L/mn O2 in their blood I don't see any breathing limitation reason why their lactate level goes up at 2L/mn O2 comparatively to bikers.

The swimmers lactate goes up quickly at lower volume of O2 intake, for me this push to an explanation around "smaller muscles" involved around the arms, key to propulsion.

So globally much less pressure on cardio system at same effort level, even for pros.

However, this doesn't prevent to push anaerobic at the end of a swim part, and move up the heart to panic level.
Despite my short swim experience, and clearly underdeveloped swimming muscles (lactate threshold 30 bpm lower in swimming than biking or running) I can easily push my heart rate very high by going anaerobic and pushing a lot on the legs... kind of heart panic reaction :-)
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [bufordt] [ In reply to ]
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bufordt wrote:
RoostBooster wrote:
Snorkels add more dead space (the volume of a breath that doesn't participate in gas exchange). This causes you to breathe in a higher percentage of carbon dioxide than ambient air would have. THAT is what primarily increases the work of breathing when using a snorkel. Unless your doc is a pulmonologist, I doubt they'd consider this.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12740732


You could exhale through your nose while using a snorkel for swimming. Or, you can use the powerbreather snorkel, which vents your exhale out the mouthpiece instead of pushing it back up the snorkel.

You could exhale through your nose, but you're not going to at any significant level of exertion.
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

Yes, I thought about this also.
But from the graph they can go up to 4L/mn O2.
So, this might happen (not sure however) for high volume of air intake, at higher power output.
But at lower level (below 4mmol/L for exemple) that can't be the case. If they can push a maximum of 4L/mn O2 in their blood I don't see any breathing limitation reason why their lactate level goes up at 2L/mn O2 comparatively to bikers.
The swimmers lactate goes up quickly at lower volume of O2 intake, for me this push to an explanation around "smaller muscles" involved around the arms, key to propulsion.
So globally much less pressure on cardio system at same effort level, even for pros.
However, this doesn't prevent to push anaerobic at the end of a swim part, and move up the heart to panic level.
Despite my short swim experience, and clearly underdeveloped swimming muscles (lactate threshold 30 bpm lower in swimming than biking or running) I can easily push my heart rate very high by going anaerobic and pushing a lot on the legs... kind of heart panic reaction :-)

Certainly I would agree that the arms are the key to propulsion but by the same token, most swimmers are kicking their legs as much as their lungs and O2 will allow them to. I was thinking about this when swimming today, e.g., sure I go faster when I kick harder but my O2 can only last so long at a high level of effort in kicking. However, guys like Phelps and Lochte have huge lungs and engines and hence they can provide O2 for both their arms and legs to work hard. I've heard from former "almost-great" swimmers that the ability to sustain that extra speed from the kick is often the diff between a Phelps/Lochte and a guy who is 3-4 sec slower over 200 m. In sum, the need for O2 is so great in swimming that I just can not really believe these studies that say top swimmers have lower VO2 max than runners, etc. Somehow I think the scientists are either missing something and the data is off, and/or the swimmers are not able to perform normally in the swim flume during these tests, due to all the hoses going in and out of the water, which would have to make it very hard to swim normally. Sometimes science takes a long time to catch up to a full picture of reality. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I understand your points.

I saw an underwater video recently posted here about 4x100m olympics, and the kick rates were impressive. No doubt a lot of power produced there. Probably the same at 200m. I have no data or experience to discuss aerobic/anaerobic constraints at these speeds/distances.

The study mentionned might not be valid / useful to analyse what happen exactly at sprint/anaerobic speed, as on the higher part of the curve, probably blood lactate is moving too fast to give a good idea of what happen there.

I was mostly discussing the curve "in the middle" around 1hour effort (4mmol/L), and "bottom side" for easier aerobic effort. This is why I was mentioning "lower volume of O2 intake".

First reason is that I understand it is difficult to analyse what happen exactly at sprint/anaerobic speed from blood lactate curve, i.e from this study.

The other reason is that my initial expectation was to understand how to pace my swim work, for IM/HIM training (not 100m) realizing heart / breath sensations from bike / run references was not going to help me much.

On this part of the curve, the study look quite realistic. Probably for long distances (1500m to 10.000m) kicking is less used even by pro swimmers ?
Maybe during the incremental swim test the swimmers underused kicking at lower speeds ?
Wich I do mostly, as most triathletes apparently ( If I remember well Gerry Rodriguez said in a T26 video I saw months ago that for "not really good swimmers", kicking was to be used "a minima").
Again, apparently, for the swim exercises, they were just taking a bit of blood (probably earlobe), no equipment restricting their moves.

For aerobic pacing (more than 5mn efforts, and more specifically 20mn to 2h efforts), these curves are useful to me, as they give me some good hint to adapt my "Lactate vs O2 consumption/HR" curves for swim workout (vs bike/run references).
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
jcmanser21009 wrote:
I know this is probably going to stir the pot but lets try it any way.In August of 18 I came do with a case of legionnaires . It turned into double pneumonia before I knew I was in the hospital with 20% lung capacity and a tube. I spent total of 30 days in ICU and a week in rehab then a week of in house rehab before being told I could get back to it lightly. fast forward to the week before Christmas finally I cot to see a lung doctor and got some good news and some bad news.good news is I can train like normal minus swimming. Bad news is I now suffer from Adult respiratory destress syndrome. In short lungs are scared and lung capacity is down to 70-75% which means that for now if i want to compete in tris I have to use a snorkel (doc orders).I know that events that are sanctioned by USAtri I can swim with the snorkel . So how would you ladies and gents feel if someone showed at the start line with a Snorkel ?


I guess the only issue here is the use of the word "Compete" since even with RD and USAT exception, you likely wouldn't be eligible for awards. Other than the awards issue, If the RD OKs it, have at it and enjoy the race.

Ignoring all of the other feedback, if a doctor requires you to use one, and you're comfortable using it, it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks! For ITU and Ironman / Ironman 70.3, you can't use one [Ironman used to have a medical exception to allow use, but that went away]. If it's a USAT sanctioned race, you can use one and still be eligible for awards - no restrictions [unless that specific race has an exemption, and I haven't run into one that does, other than US-based Ironman].
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:

I understand your points.
I saw an underwater video recently posted here about 4x100m olympics, and the kick rates were impressive. No doubt a lot of power produced there. Probably the same at 200m. I have no data or experience to discuss aerobic/anaerobic constraints at these speeds/distances.
The study mentionned might not be valid / useful to analyse what happen exactly at sprint/anaerobic speed, as on the higher part of the curve, probably blood lactate is moving too fast to give a good idea of what happen there.
I was mostly discussing the curve "in the middle" around 1hour effort (4mmol/L), and "bottom side" for easier aerobic effort. This is why I was mentioning "lower volume of O2 intake".
First reason is that I understand it is difficult to analyse what happen exactly at sprint/anaerobic speed from blood lactate curve, i.e from this study.
The other reason is that my initial expectation was to understand how to pace my swim work, for IM/HIM training (not 100m) realizing heart / breath sensations from bike / run references was not going to help me much.
On this part of the curve, the study look quite realistic. Probably for long distances (1500m to 10.000m) kicking is less used even by pro swimmers ?
Maybe during the incremental swim test the swimmers underused kicking at lower speeds ?
Wich I do mostly, as most triathletes apparently ( If I remember well Gerry Rodriguez said in a T26 video I saw months ago that for "not really good swimmers", kicking was to be used "a minima").
Again, apparently, for the swim exercises, they were just taking a bit of blood (probably earlobe), no equipment restricting their moves.
For aerobic pacing (more than 5mn efforts, and more specifically 20mn to 2h efforts), these curves are useful to me, as they give me some good hint to adapt my "Lactate vs O2 consumption/HR" curves for swim workout (vs bike/run references).

If they were only taking blood from the swimmers' earlobes, how did they measure O2 uptake??? The set-ups I've seen for measuring O2 uptake involve a flume (e.g., something kinda, sorta like the Endless Pool where you swim against a current) with the swimmer wearing a mask to record O2 in and out.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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You are right on this one.

Don't know, it is not well described.

Correlation with HR ?
Or gas analysis via a mask ? Don't know
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
You are right on this one.
Don't know, it is not well described.
Correlation with HR ?
Or gas analysis via a mask ? Don't know

I read the article you posted above and looked at the data tables and graphs. If you read the title of Figure 1, it says "Mean evolution of blood lactate concentrations in top level swimmers (n = 5) and cyclists (n = 5) during an incremental bicycle ergometer test." Figure 1 shows the swimmers peaking at about 10 mmole/L of lactate and about 4 L O2/min, vs the cyclists peaking at about 7.2 mmole/L lactate and about 5.2 L O2/min. However, this result is hardly surprising since the cyclists were tested in their specialty of cycling. It is very well established that athletes will achieve the highest O2 uptake when tested in their specialty. If you test a cyclist on a treadmill, his numbers will not be as impressive as when tested on the bike; if you test a runner on the bike, his numbers will not be as high as they would be on the treadmill. For swimmers, testing in the flume is the only real way to get a good idea of their max O2 uptake. This article was not really concerned about that but rather was mainly trying to validate the "Francaux Model" of lactate accumulation vs VO2.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Yes

But they also mention swimming test giving the same results, however not describing clearly the protocol.
I agree there is some ambiguity.

However, these "separated curves" gave me the idea (Arvild Tveiten interview pointing also in same direction) to create for myself this curve "Lactate vs BPM/Oxygen consumption" for swimming, which is very different form the one I use for biking / running.

It proved very useful.
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Re: Racing with a snorkel [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
Yes
But they also mention swimming test giving the same results, however not describing clearly the protocol.
I agree there is some ambiguity.
However, these "separated curves" gave me the idea (Arvild Tveiten interview pointing also in same direction) to create for myself this curve "Lactate vs BPM/Oxygen consumption" for swimming, which is very different form the one I use for biking / running.
It proved very useful.

So did you buy your own little lactate testing kit and prick your own ear lobe??? Or have a friend prick it??? I've used a HR monitor a good bit in the past but I've never gone to the extent of testing my own lactate levels. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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