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Doping Class...
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I say we have a class specifically for doping in tri and cycling.

Like age group, elite, dope. Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat Dope.

I think it would be interesting to see how fast someone could go if they could do whatever they wanted to their body. Unregulated, no holds, do what you want balls to the wall doping class.

I would watch

Can we make a petition for this?
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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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This is a great idea, it would be just like Pro cycling.
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Re: Doping Class... [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
This is a great idea, it would be just like Pro cycling.

In a way they already did this, legally under UCI rules, when they put out the stupid hematocrit limits. If you were a lucky SOB with natural low hematocrit you could pretty much legally dope EPO and bags till you died in your sleep.

Because, there was no direct test for EPO yet.

Now with the tests for it, you can’t. That’s why you won’t see a new clean record up Ventoux.

Fwiw, lookup poop transplant doping. It’s comedy, but real.
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Re: Doping Class... [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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More like
pro Soccer
pro Tennis
pro Skiing
pro every sport, in fact

except maybe cycling
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Re: Doping Class... [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Hematocrit of 55 isn't "balls to the wall" though... I think he means no holds barred category... 65plus, anabolic squeezies, with nitrous bottle of T on the bike and helmet with built in nasal piping feed of salbutamol....
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Re: Doping Class... [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
Hematocrit of 55 isn't "balls to the wall" though... I think he means no holds barred category... 65plus, anabolic squeezies, with nitrous bottle of T on the bike and helmet with built in nasal piping feed of salbutamol....

Yes this! like if your body and organs can handle X amount of EPO and Test and everything else then do it. Only the strong will survive but man I bet it would be cool to watch the pace/speed/distance.
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Re: Doping Class... [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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Plus a Soyouz in the ass as mechanical doping ?
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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
lacticturkey wrote:
Hematocrit of 55 isn't "balls to the wall" though... I think he means no holds barred category... 65plus, anabolic squeezies, with nitrous bottle of T on the bike and helmet with built in nasal piping feed of salbutamol....

Yes this! like if your body and organs can handle X amount of EPO and Test and everything else then do it. Only the strong will survive but man I bet it would be cool to watch the pace/speed/distance.

Why draw the line there? Why not let them use motors on their bikes?

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Re: Doping Class... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Because that would be cheating...
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Re: Doping Class... [jacked] [ In reply to ]
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jacked wrote:
Because that would be cheating...

Not if the rules allow it...

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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
I say we have a class specifically for doping in tri and cycling.

Like age group, elite, dope. Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat Dope.

I think it would be interesting to see how fast someone could go if they could do whatever they wanted to their body. Unregulated, no holds, do what you want balls to the wall doping class.

I would watch

Can we make a petition for this?

I'm in!
Now.....where can I get the dopes? Also, I'll be doping on a budget, so maybe we can set up something like doping aptitude classes.

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Re: Doping Class... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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You might be on to something there

The only way to 100% get rid of cheating is to ban rules!

All along it was the rulebook that caused all the cheating, go figure!



JasoninHalifax wrote:
jacked wrote:
Because that would be cheating...

Not if the rules allow it...
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Re: Doping Class... [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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So if I follow a rule, I'd be cheating?

Hmm, interesting idea....

lacticturkey wrote:
You might be on to something there

The only way to 100% get rid of cheating is to ban rules!

All along it was the rulebook that caused all the cheating, go figure!



JasoninHalifax wrote:
jacked wrote:
Because that would be cheating...

Not if the rules allow it...

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Favourite Swim Sets: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...m.cgi?;post=5004659;
Unattainable goals for 2019/2020 season. https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6944848#p6944848
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Re: Doping Class... [ In reply to ]
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Not ban the rules, just give those that are determined to hurt themselves somewhere to race. Is it that much different than the "safe injection site" that are popping up?
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Re: Doping Class... [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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domingjm wrote:
Twinkie wrote:
I say we have a class specifically for doping in tri and cycling.

Like age group, elite, dope. Cat 1, Cat 2, Cat Dope.

I think it would be interesting to see how fast someone could go if they could do whatever they wanted to their body. Unregulated, no holds, do what you want balls to the wall doping class.

I would watch

Can we make a petition for this?

I'm in!
Now.....where can I get the dopes? Also, I'll be doping on a budget, so maybe we can set up something like doping aptitude classes.


To be a fair competition there needs to be a doping budget cap. Bit like in some rugby U leagues (like they work well..
🐷
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Re: Doping Class... [erbrown] [ In reply to ]
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No dont get rid of the rules. Keep the clean groups then add the doping group.

So if Joe Blow wants to get all hopped up on EPO he can and he can still race - just against other hopped up racers. OR if someone gets caught for cheating in a clean class - they can still race but it has to be in a doping class only from now on. So lance could still race - just in a doped class. Eventually the field would be pretty big.
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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure why I clicked on this thinking, "So we're going to learn how to dope today, huh?"

Anyhoo... most professional athletics seems to be a doping class anyway. The point of doping is to get an unfair advantage and tilt the field in your favor. Thus, someone who is doping is likely going to enter themselves into a "clean" category with the intent that they can rock out thanks to their advantage...

I've always also wondered: considering the level of support that some athletes get from extensive sponsored medical labs, crews, etc. it's almost like doping in an "amateur" competition such as the olympics. What real hope does an unsupported or undersupported athlete have against a field that has full time personal training, medical crews, attendants, pay, equipment sponsors and the like--even assuming that there is no drug doping occurring.

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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
No dont get rid of the rules. Keep the clean groups then add the doping group.

So if Joe Blow wants to get all hopped up on EPO he can and he can still race - just against other hopped up racers. OR if someone gets caught for cheating in a clean class - they can still race but it has to be in a doping class only from now on. So lance could still race - just in a doped class. Eventually the field would be pretty big.

I think you meant, Immediately the field would be pretty big.
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Re: Doping Class... [trihawg] [ In reply to ]
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trihawg wrote:
Not sure why I clicked on this thinking, "So we're going to learn how to dope today, huh?"

Anyhoo... most professional athletics seems to be a doping class anyway. The point of doping is to get an unfair advantage and tilt the field in your favor. Thus, someone who is doping is likely going to enter themselves into a "clean" category with the intent that they can rock out thanks to their advantage...

I've always also wondered: considering the level of support that some athletes get from extensive sponsored medical labs, crews, etc. it's almost like doping in an "amateur" competition such as the olympics. What real hope does an unsupported or undersupported athlete have against a field that has full time personal training, medical crews, attendants, pay, equipment sponsors and the like--even assuming that there is no drug doping occurring.

Maybe, but the money, sponsorship and prestige is at the top levels, even if you have no chance of a podium. Bodybuilding is a salient example.

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Re: Doping Class... [trihawg] [ In reply to ]
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trihawg wrote:
Not sure why I clicked on this thinking, "So we're going to learn how to dope today, huh?"
I was already imagining someone who knows a lot about doping with the conflicting thought of "I could teach a class on doping, but I probably shouldn't."
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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
....

I think it would be interesting to see how fast someone could go if they could do whatever they wanted to their body. Unregulated, no holds, do what you want balls to the wall doping class.

...


You are already seeing it, you just don't know when you see it. Which also, IMHO, proves that some MOPer who decides to dope, is not all of a sudden going to catapult him/herself to the podium.
At the pointy end of the field, sure, a few percent increase in performance can matter.....so test the podium/kona's and be done with it. Which for the most, I believe is what they are doing.
Last edited by: SBRcanuck: Jan 15, 19 14:20
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Re: Doping Class... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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There has to be rules.
I would go for different doping categories:

- ''Vintage doping'' (first half of the XX th century): Allowed substances: strychnine, cocaine, chloroform, stimulants, beer and wine.
- ''old school doping'' (70's and 80's): : Amphetamins, morphine, cocaine, ''pot Belge''.
- ''90's era'': EPO fest.
And so on....

Any other good ideas :-P ?

Louis :-)
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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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2 issues:

1) Nobody really wants to admit to doping even if it's legal, and sponsors certainly aren't going to be interested other than maybe a few less reputable pharmaceutical companies. That means the non-doping classes will still carry a lot more kudos, which means the competitive dopers will still just enter the non-doping classes and figure they won't get caught

2) Some stuff needs to be banned for safety reasons. Can't have people dropping dead on the race course

I think the only way to stop people who are doping for performance reasons is to increase funding for testing and investigation (more likely to catch people through tip-offs than tests in my view) to make the chances of getting caught high enough to discourage people.

I do think that people who are taking banned substances for non-performance reasons e.g. somebody who has very low testosterone levels, or is on meds for an illness, should be able to declare their meds and participate in a race but be excluded from any awards. So they can enjoy the experience, go for a PR, get a finishers medal, etc, but they don't get to stand on a podium or pick up a Kona spot.
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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Scott Tinley suggested this in his Triathlete column about 20yrs ago, he said it would be like Top Fuellers in drag racing - some insane times but some pretty short careers.

'to give anything less than the best is to sacrifice the gift'...Pre
Last edited by: undies: Jan 16, 19 1:53
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Re: Doping Class... [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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It's naive to think that clean sport can be achieved by providing a separate event for dopers.
Dopers, I would imagine, don't specifically want to dope, they want to win. If a new category was to be provided where they would be up against lots of other dopers and it's perhaps less prestigious, why would they choose to switch? Surely, it they were prepared to cheat in the first place, they'll prefer to stay where they are and continue cheating. Also presumably anyone who races in the "doping class" will never be allowed to race "clean" again? Another reason why those prepared to cheat in the first place may not find the idea attractive.

I don't know much about body building but it seems to me that it's not a useful comparison. Surely it's not a performance sport, it's an aesthetic competition? As such, I would expect the attitude towards doping might be somewhat different - perhaps I don't have a good grasp of this? Power lifting would be different. It's a performance sport. Are there "clean" and "doped" categories in power lifting?

Anyway, my main point is that regardless of whether there's a "doping permitted" category, you can't eliminate the need to enforce the rules in the clean category. So why bother? All I can see are downsides.
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