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Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider
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Hello All,

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/...e-charge-attempting/

Interesting case.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Now this has some potentially very sticky smelly poo attached to it. And an incoming set of fan blades.

Was he a 'lone wolf' doing this all off his own back with every other person involved in the whole set up completely in the dark ?
Is British Cycling going to hang him out to dry (looks to me like they already have) in order to try to protect their own asres.
Or was he working under some other 'higher instruction' ?

Hmmmmm...

What's brown and sticky. And isn't a stick ?
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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Wait... are you saying that pro cyclists dope... to go faster!?!

(Trying to accomplish 50/50/50 - 50 understaitments of the year in 50 days in 50 states. My body craves it.)

Message sent from er.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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The doping culture at Sky would make US Postal look like HC porn vs. Lolita. Hopefully one day it will.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Rocket_racing wrote:
Wait... are you saying that pro cyclists dope... to go faster!?!

(Trying to accomplish 50/50/50 - 50 understaitments of the year in 50 days in 50 states. My body craves it.)

Message sent from er.

It's not news that pro cyclists dope. It is newsworthy though when a Sky/British Cycling doctor is facing charges. If upheld this would be the first doping conviction from the Sky/British Cycling setup. And would cast doubt not just on Sky's achievements but also on the British Olympic track program.

The closest we've had was the Wiggins injections where they all but admitted that they abused the TUE process for performance gains, but not convictable as they did still follow the TUE process. Froome was able to prove that the salbutamol test was unreliable (always seemed a really odd/stupid thing to be doing anyway in terms of small to non-existent performance gains against a very high chance of getting caught). And everything else has really just been criticism of them hiring (but subsequently getting rid of) riders and staff with a questionable past (Geert Leinders, Sean Yates, Bobby Julich), or simply an assumption that any team that is that dominant must be doping (not unreasonable given cycling's history).

I'll be following this story with close interest. To date I've taken the view that Sky/GB have probably abused the spirit of the law in their quest for marginal gains, but have been smart enough to stay just the right side of the letter of the law (I also fully sympathise with those who take a less generous view). If Freeman's convicted I'd have to revise that view. Also very keen to find out who the "unnamed rider" is who the Testogel was for.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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The conviction changes nothing. The data from the accusation plus the Jiffy bag incident is more than enough to know what his role was.
Also, we won't find out who it was for. His silence and him going down alone will prevent him from being burned beyond recognition.

One of my questions would be who is doing his work since he left?
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:

I'll be following this story with close interest. To date I've taken the view that Sky/GB have probably abused the spirit of the law in their quest for marginal gains, but have been smart enough to stay just the right side of the letter of the law (I also fully sympathise with those who take a less generous view). If

This is my position.

However I don't sympathise with those who think otherwise.

Having just read a very good dissection of the English legal system (in which is it debated at length), I firmly believe that 'innocent' unless proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt is the bedrock of a fair society.
Sky have not been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt and if they are I will change my view, but until then I will hold to the idea that they abuse the law but not break it.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Legally I fully agree with you. But the evidence threshold for holding a personal opinion is much lower - e.g. I was convinced Lance was a doper a loooong time before there was enough evidence to convict him. The fact that EPO offered such a huge advantage and that he was dominating an EPO-fuelled peloton was pretty much enough for me, the other stuff that came out over the years just confirmed it.

I think the peloton is clean enough now, and the Sky budget (and talent they can buy with it) big enough that it's possible for them to dominate the peloton cleanly. But given my views on Lance it would be hypocritical to get too upset if others are more cynical.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
Legally I fully agree with you. But the evidence threshold for holding a personal opinion is much lower - e.g. I was convinced Lance was a doper a loooong time before there was enough evidence to convict him. The fact that EPO offered such a huge advantage and that he was dominating an EPO-fuelled peloton was pretty much enough for me, the other stuff that came out over the years just confirmed it.

I think the peloton is clean enough now, and the Sky budget (and talent they can buy with it) big enough that it's possible for them to dominate the peloton cleanly. But given my views on Lance it would be hypocritical to get too upset if others are more cynical.


That seems fair. Everyone is entitled to a quiet opinion.

It's more the 'publicly string them up' brigade that I take umbrage with.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [Rocket_racing] [ In reply to ]
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Might have been using the testosterone for his own usage, to be a major stallion with his wife and "extra" relations ?

(could use this understatement for the Washington DC state, as a cross-reference to the "red haired" pussy catcher)
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, those who don't buy their side of the Jiffy Bag incident and the box of dildos story (and now this testogel order) should only have a quiet opinion until the legal system is capable of getting a conviction. Everyone should ignore the dense, dark smoke and stop saying there must be a fire somewhere.

Hilarious.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah pretty much.

It's the difference between holding an opinion and an (internet) hate mob.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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So here is the multimillion dollar question:

Did sky/comcast (comcast not putting their name on the team, but giving money, maybe due to contract stipulations) pull out as thry did inowing that this info would soon come to the surface?
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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tuckandgo wrote:
Yeah pretty much.

It's the difference between holding an opinion and an (internet) hate mob.
Counter point: no.

It's your choice to bury your head in the sand an/or being ignorant to all the mounting evidence on British Cycling and Sky. Those who point out facts are not a hate mob no matter how much you try to make them be, especially if all you have is "but there's not conviction".
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
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So, here's an honest question.........what's the testing like in running, swimming, triathlon versus pro cycling?

I find the news cycles and grandeur of cycling pops to other endurance sports a bit odd when it basically took an award winning documentary to get the public onto the whole Russia/Olympics athletes thing revived. I say revived as it's always been there in Olympic sport.

It's like cycling is the public whipping boy for the rest of the dirty crowd in sports. By all means, keep up the work of getting the bad guys/gals..........but I find it hard to believe the news cycle by coincidence mostly hits cycling the hardest. It's not a conspiracy against cycling, I think it's the fact other groups aren't doing the same things to catch and shame people at the same level.

We've still got people outing Lance in public, today, but I don't see people routinely booing the Russians when they show up to something.

I wonder if the cycling general public has higher demands than the other sports. Like an elephant, we never forget.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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There's a middle ground.
I think it's legitimate to air your opinion but it must be civil and it's vitally important to state that it is just your opinion/suspicion and not a fact.

Personally, I think it's likely that cheating has gone on at Sky, quite possibly still does, and I think there's plenty others in the peloton still cheating. However, I don't have any evidence either way. My opinion is based on the knowledge that organised dopers have, in the past, consistently managed to stay ahead of the anti-doping tests for long periods. Clean tests have never, in the past, been proof of a clean sport. The UCI has not really ever demonstrated itself to be sincerely dedicated to cleaning up the sport, just it's image. I don't have proof there's widespread doping happening, but I don't have credible evidence it's not either. And that being the case, it seems rather naive not to maintain a certain skepticism.

The major problem is people stating or implying opinion as fact. This is currently rife and it's presence in sport is far from the most worrying incarnation!

In politics we've got Brexit, Trump, and more. In general opinion we've got pseudo-science, anti-science and conspiracy theories undermining everything.... diets, vaccination, climate change, whatever. Opinion as fact is where the damage is. Apologies if I've wandered off topic. I'll stop now.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
So, here's an honest question.........what's the testing like in running, swimming, triathlon versus pro cycling?

I find the news cycles and grandeur of cycling pops to other endurance sports a bit odd when it basically took an award winning documentary to get the public onto the whole Russia/Olympics athletes thing revived. I say revived as it's always been there in Olympic sport.

It's like cycling is the public whipping boy for the rest of the dirty crowd in sports. By all means, keep up the work of getting the bad guys/gals..........but I find it hard to believe the news cycle by coincidence mostly hits cycling the hardest. It's not a conspiracy against cycling, I think it's the fact other groups aren't doing the same things to catch and shame people at the same level.

We've still got people outing Lance in public, today, but I don't see people routinely booing the Russians when they show up to something.

I wonder if the cycling general public has higher demands than the other sports. Like an elephant, we never forget.

The fact is testing in cycling is now very strong and thorough. Probably because of past history. Discussing regularly with pro / international elite, they are really under pressure with this.

Much more than in many other sports :
Tennis testing is a real joke, for exemple AMA peoples are excluded from Roland Garros area during the tournament, these guys can enter only a spectator, it is important to protect players (WTF ??)
Football (soccer), such a joke also. If applying cycling rules, IMO 95% will be positive.
Triathlon : no continuous testing, no electric bike testing (?)
...

But, however, even if regular and serious testing in cycling, it is not perfect due to :
1) doping research : always something new not yet searched for of included in "the list"
2) AUT were used by Sky, and others, for years.... just get a medic signature, a nice approval, and that's it... it is "the fortress open backdoor"

AUT are not illegal, they are just not well regulated.
They should be much much more regulated.

So, IMO, UCI is doing a good job, but should do even more !
Many other federations are just at the "joke" level, comparatively. Essentially protecting financial interests, not safe and equal competition.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, this is what I was getting at.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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I should point out the Rodchnekov Act in the U.S., which would allow USADA to bring civil fraud lawsuits against those who participate in doping in international competition. Just bringing it up because it's another case of going after people *other* than the athletes themselves. Which I think is generally a good idea. Typically the athletes gets their lives ruined while the doctors and managers tip-toe off to their next team.

The IOC commented on the proposed legislation, clearly taking the Slowtwitch thread "but but the NFL" approach, "We very much appreciate and welcome moves in the United States to step up the fight against doping and we assume that the very worrying existing challenges with some of the professional leagues in the United States will be addressed as a matter of urgency."

Sigh. Really IOC? Gonna pretend like you don't have "worrying existing challenges" for competitions actually under the IOC umbrella?
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
So, here's an honest question.........what's the testing like in running, swimming, triathlon versus pro cycling?

I find the news cycles and grandeur of cycling pops to other endurance sports a bit odd when it basically took an award winning documentary to get the public onto the whole Russia/Olympics athletes thing revived. I say revived as it's always been there in Olympic sport.

It's like cycling is the public whipping boy for the rest of the dirty crowd in sports. By all means, keep up the work of getting the bad guys/gals..........but I find it hard to believe the news cycle by coincidence mostly hits cycling the hardest. It's not a conspiracy against cycling, I think it's the fact other groups aren't doing the same things to catch and shame people at the same level.

We've still got people outing Lance in public, today, but I don't see people routinely booing the Russians when they show up to something.

I wonder if the cycling general public has higher demands than the other sports. Like an elephant, we never forget.
It's pretty certain that other sports have lots and lots of doping going on too.
One distinct thing about cycling however, in my opinion, is that doping can be the entire difference between being irrelevant and being the "best". Skill or technique are not crucial in cycling. There's performance and some strategy, that's about it. So, if you can inject sufficient performance, you can win. Also, it's easier to identify and quantify improvements. you can't easily explain away significant improvements by claiming improved technique for example (well maybe TT position to some extent but not climbing). Runners, swimmers and others can certainly also gain hugely by using PEDs but there is also a much greater technique element to those sports. For most other sports, lets say tennis, rugby, football, or golf, for example, the drugs probably still pave the way to success PROVIDING the skills are also at the requisite standard.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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I can agree with that.

This is a diversion from Sky, since motor doping was brought up, so skip this if not interested........

Pyrenian mentioned above no motor doping testing in other sports with bikes. I didn't really think that was widespread at all until that female cyclocross chick got nicked for it among other people. And the 60 minutes documentary.

The reason I mention that, is that to me personally some of the watts/CdA being demonstrated in real world outdoor situations seem a bit fantastic in some situations when you think that the watts/CdA often cited are from ideal wind tunnel and velodrome testing. Not suffering for outdoors in varied environments.

I know the CdA matters a LOT, but again, some of the wattages and average speeds are often just nuts.

Maybe not motor doping, but maybe drafting even among the pros (we know the amateurs do). Just something has to explain some of the numbers.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
https://sportsscientists.com/2019/01/the-curious-case-of-dr-freeman-and-the-testogel-and-conspiracy-contortionism-in-denial-of-fire/?fbclid=IwAR0EhizU1e1CUto7DZ2KsKum3G3H1ZLXUp8pdjnRuRNF8-HEiSLTeehJnW4
Thank you.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
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You're very welcome. I thought it was good.
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Re: Former Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman to face charge of attempting to dope a rider [Thorax] [ In reply to ]
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Thorax wrote:
The doping culture at Sky would make US Postal look like HC porn vs. Lolita. Hopefully one day it will.

You are being overly suspicious--even downright conspiratorial. It is not rare for teams to receive shipments of testosterone by accident. When I was racing seriously I don't think a year went by without an unexpected box of roids showing up on my doorstep. Nothing to see here. It happens all the time.
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