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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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Like many on this board, my job requires me to assess credibility of people and what they write.

The quality of Hambini's answers, and in particular the personal attacks on other posters, have destroyed Hambini's credibility in my eyes, to the point where I can no longer attribute any weight to Hambini's opinion.

By contrast, Canadian (Chris/Flo) has responded consistently and despite considerable provocation - yes, looking at you GreenPlease - without obvious rancour. It is disappointing that he's been put in a position that he has had to defend himself against what appear to be baseless accusations. (Disclosure: I paid a substantial amount to Flo to acquire 60/90s and I don't hate them, but that doesn't make me a fan-boy. Particularly as I am still waiting for further news on those optimized gravel-wheels).

The most disappointing aspect of this entire thread is that the idea Hambini proposed intrigues me. What if the basic premise is correct? How do we learn more? And from which....credible....source?
Last edited by: BigHammer: Oct 25, 18 23:50
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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hambini wrote:
damon_rinard wrote:
mauricemaher wrote:

So back to the science, I keep looking back at yours/Tom A’s etc posts and it appears they haven’t responded.

As the discussion stands now with the data they have provided is this a reasonable data set? Reasonable protocol etc?

Thanks,
Maurice


No.


Your company can't even make your bottom brackets to consistently meet the tolerances of the standard that you set. As an engineering manager how do you even sleep at night? Or do you even care that you are charging people lots of money in the West and effectively exploiting cheap far Eastern labor for the benefit of you and your shareholders?


Wow.
pot.
kettle.
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Hybrid-Ceramic-Vs-Steel-Bearings-Article-2.pdf
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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hambini wrote:
damon_rinard wrote:
mauricemaher wrote:

So back to the science, I keep looking back at yours/Tom A’s etc posts and it appears they haven’t responded.

As the discussion stands now with the data they have provided is this a reasonable data set? Reasonable protocol etc?

Thanks,
Maurice


No.


Your company can't even make your bottom brackets to consistently meet the tolerances of the standard that you set. As an engineering manager how do you even sleep at night? Or do you even care that you are charging people lots of money in the West and effectively exploiting cheap far Eastern labor for the benefit of you and your shareholders?
Diversion Tactic

Be a good engineer, or stop pretending to be a good engineer.
Provide answers to technical queries about your assertions.
Provide evidence to accompany any claims that others are threatening you or otherwise attempting to interfere.
Stop making personal attacks. If you're a good engineer and you have a point then you will be able to do better than that. Argue your point, if it's valid. Until I see you do so, I will assume it's NOT valid. My most solid evidence of anything at this point is your behaviour. For me that behaviour calls your other claims into doubt by undermining any pressumption of integrity we might have for data presented.

I'm an aerodynamicist and an engineer. I have no involvement in the cycling industry except that I cycle. If I were to give a one word answer to Maurice's question, it would be the same as Damon's - No. Now, to be fair, I'd give that answer for a significant portion of the "technical data" I see presented by the cycling industry. However, your response should be to question the reasons for our answers and convince us otherwise. When you just attack the poster it makes your depth of knowledge and data look especially weak. if you had more to bring to the table, you'd surely do so before resorting to this.

You had 4 main choices of response to criticism that I can think of:
  1. Accept the criticism, consider it constructive and provide additional data that was omitted from that provided originally in order to plug the gaps and support the findings. Thus demonstrating your competence (if the data makes sense), professionalism and ensuring future engagement from us, which you appear to want.
  2. Accept the criticism, consider it constructive and concede that you need to do some more work to fill the gaps or that there are gaps but you're not in a position to fill them. This would demonstrate integrity, professionalism and a basis for constructive discussion.
  3. Reject the criticism and give your reasoned arguments.Thus demonstrating your competence (if the arguments make sense), professionalism and ensure future engagement from us, which you appear to want.
  4. Reject the criticism, avoid responding to technical points and instead make personal attacks with no basis in the issue under discussion. This demonstrates a lack of integrity (you dodged the criticism, and tried to distract from that by making personal attacks instead) and a thorough lack of professionalism. It says nothing directly about your technical competence, but the assumption must be that if you COULD have gone with option 1 or 3, you would have.


Options 1, 2 and 3 are all perfectly acceptable to me.
Option 4 is not. I must assume you can't be trusted and I certainly know that any attempt to have a constructive conversation is likely to be unpleasant.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Well to be honest there is some merit to the point that adhering to BB standards is a bit of a mess with some mfgs. I mean there are many people who have to use loctite compound to actually glue their pressfit BBs in place and will still get the BB creak at some point. Many people have said to prefer old style threaded BSA/ITA bottom brackets for that reason and its true. It happens on Cervelos, it happened on early versions of the tririg bike, I don't know on how many more bikes this is a problem.

But to be honest this is totally unrelated to anything right now and I don't know why it was even brought up. In my opinion there is really just one interesting set of questions right now and thats :

a) Did Hambini lie and make up the accusation of Flo sending an evil letter to him and thus destroying any credibility he had?
b) Did Flo lie and just deny sending the letter to keep up appearances?
c) Did a third party pretend to act upon Flos behalf when they really didn't?

The way it stands now I think it would be best if Hambini actually produced the letter he (purportedly) to back up his claims.

Besides if it turns out Hambini made this whole legal threat up you gotta task what else was made up. Did the test ever take place to begin with? I mean we never saw any pictures of that miraculous wind tunnel or of any of the testing and talk is cheap. On the other hand why would one make up such a claim of a letter when its really easy for Flo to come on here and tell everyone that it isn't true and thus shading doubt over H. credibility. It seems like a dumb move for him if it was made up with ill intend.

But then I also don't understand why, when he actually bothers to post in this thread he would not comment on this topic and instead just raises a totally different topic (BB standard tolerances).
Last edited by: surrey85: Oct 26, 18 1:35
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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That would be fine if what turned out to be a few engineers messing around in a wind tunnel to find fast wheels for their friend turned into a systematic requirement to describe testing methodologies to the nth degree didn't descend into the threat of court because two wheel companies didn't like the results.

I have been accused of dodging questions etc. It's TOTAL RUBBISH. All questions have been answered, I came to the conclusion that you boys and girls (mainly in America) are not used to seeing results presented in a certain way. It should not be my responsibility for the results to be converted into a language you can understand. If you want it in words you understand then pay for it or get someone else to do it for you.

On the subject of Damon Rinnard, it is not a diversion. A lot of his distributors in Europe use Hambini BB's to fix their creaking Cannondale frames, I'm pretty sure Cannondale HQ know about it but they turn a blind eye to it. I class the comment "no" as a put down. I have never stated it openly before because I did feel empathy towards Cannondale Engineering as they are probably driven by accountants.

After that put down, I was annoyed and It is not appropriate given he is ultimately responsible for the plethora of $hite bike frames on the market to be even able to comment, if he can't get his BB's right, how can his aero be any good? If I was him and responsible for that level of Engineering crapness, I would go slash my wrists from the shame. Accountants or not, he is ultimately responsible.

HELLO HAMBINI FANS!!!
Last edited by: hambini: Oct 26, 18 2:01
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [surrey85] [ In reply to ]
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This was entirely my point. I'm not taking the bait and talking about BBs because the entire point of that post was to create a diversion and dodge criticism by attacking others. That's indicative of a lack of academic honesty, which is a problem for him when we're being asked to take his word for various other controversial claims.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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I have not uploaded the letter on guidance... as soon as my counsel allows me, I will upload it because this behaviour is unacceptable.

I have said my bits, I will not comment any further and leave others to speculate.

Thanks

Hambini

HELLO HAMBINI FANS!!!
Last edited by: hambini: Oct 26, 18 5:24
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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hambini wrote:
I have not uploaded the letter on guidance.

I have said my bits, I will not comment any further and leave others to speculate.

Thanks

Hambini


This is basically a situation where you accused someone of doing something and where your word stands against theirs. Do you find it unreasonable for us to request that you provide details seeing how you decided to put this claim out there in the first place?

If you cannot share the letter due to legal considerations maybe you can share other details that will substantiate your claims or at least make the whole thing less vague.
Last edited by: surrey85: Oct 26, 18 2:15
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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hambini wrote:
I have not uploaded the letter on guidance.

I have said my bits, I will not comment any further and leave others to speculate.

Thanks

Hambini

@dan.

Sidebar hijack

I love ST and have been coming for a long time. And I appreciate your tenor and work you do to keep this community open

But people that are rude, condescending, mean, aggressive, spewing libel, make me really dislike coming here

As I was reading I’ve been hoping you would step in and ban this guy as a point this is not acceptable

But Back on topic. I love FLO wheels =)
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta wrote:
As I was reading I’ve been hoping you would step in and ban this guy as a point this is not acceptable

At this point I'm pretty sure there is a lot of backchannel chatter going on between Dan, Chris, and I hope Hambini. Because this is ridiculous and things are being said that should be said in emails (or maybe even registered mail between attorneys), not on public message boards. I expect Dan coming down with a post laying down the law some time today.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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This is one of the most bizarre posts yet. You present so many false truths, accusations, and diversions that I don’t believe a word of any of your study anymore. I am now starting to think you’ve made it all up.

Post the letter. There’s no harm in that since you’ve already stated the content.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [hambini] [ In reply to ]
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hambini wrote:
I have not uploaded the letter on guidance.

I have said my bits, I will not comment any further and leave others to speculate.

Thanks

Hambini
Surely if you can't present the letter, the prudent course of action is not to make the accusation.
If you got threatening letters you had a bunch of choices:
  • Ignore the threat entirely
  • Comply with the request and say nothing
  • Make the threat public and present the letters as evidence
  • Make the threat public without any evidence making it your word against theirs

I think it's very poor judgement to accuse without evidence. How did you think that would be received? Whether it's true or false, you must have known it would undermine you. Maybe you just felt it was worth it?
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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From the WW thread, the accusation that FLO pays forum members to shill for them is based on Tom A receiving an unsollicited free wheel from Flo after his garage was broken into and a number of his bikes and wheels were stolen.

That's a bit of a stretch imo...
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [ In reply to ]
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From the Hambini site (link in OP) regarding the whole business:

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A COPY OF THE LETTER WILL BE UPLOADED IN DUE COURSE.

So maybe this whole thing will become less vague soon. I see how he would want to consult such a move with some sort of legal counsel beforehand so I'd be willing to cut him some slack for not doing this right away if he eventually produces something to back his claim soon.


Also something Hambini posted on weightweenies on Oct 16th:

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In other but related news. Two of the wheel brands who have been tested have been in touch with lawyer letters to try to get them removed from the graphs.
I've obviously touched a nerve.


So originally it was two companies according to H., only Flo has been further discussed on the hambini blog or named so far tho. Unless H. is going to be changing stories now, which I don't hope. I actually still hope there is some logical explanation for all this where everyone gets to save ones face because apart from the sometimes appalling lack of manners I kinda like the calling out of bad engineering and debunking of bike hype (e.g. ceramic bearings etc) that Hambini does.
Last edited by: surrey85: Oct 26, 18 7:04
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [BigHammer] [ In reply to ]
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BigHammer wrote:
The most disappointing aspect of this entire thread is that the idea Hambini proposed intrigues me. What if the basic premise is correct? How do we learn more? And from which....credible....source?

I think we'll learn more once we get a handle on the best practices on using all the new "aero sticks" to test equipment. If there is a significant difference between "real world airflow" and "non-louvered wind tunnel flow" it should eventually emerge.

I'm of half a mind to just do my own Chung-style testing of a Flo6 vs a Bontrager Aeolus 6 using an outdoor course and doing enough repetition to account for wind gusts, etc.. If there is indeed a 25W difference @50km/h per the Hambini graph, it should pop right out in the data. (But if I do this I will present my data as a hobbyist, not an expert).
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Blaine wrote:
mvenneta wrote:

As I was reading I’ve been hoping you would step in and ban this guy as a point this is not acceptable


At this point I'm pretty sure there is a lot of backchannel chatter going on between Dan, Chris, and I hope Hambini. Because this is ridiculous and things are being said that should be said in emails (or maybe even registered mail between attorneys), not on public message boards. I expect Dan coming down with a post laying down the law some time today.

there are no backchannel discussions. if chris asked or would ask me to hide this thread, or damon for that matter, i probably would. however, i rather think leaving it up is more illustrative.

in my personal experience, and to the best of my knowledge, no, chris (FLO) does not pay anyone on the forum to ride his wheels, say nice things, or whatever that allegation was. no, damon is not in charge of his companies' bottom brackets. i have owned an ridden a lot of cannondales - a lot of cannondales - in every category (tri, road, MTB, gravel), including 3 that i own right now (and i may be forgetting some) - a supersix evo, a slate, and a bad habit - and have never had bottom bracket creak in any cannondale bike. damon is in charge of his company's aerodynamics, and his work at cervelo, before that trek, before that kestrel, should be all the bona fides we need.

damon is, beyond this, the singular model in our industry for how to be the smartest guy in the room, and the most gracious guy in the room, simultaneously. (usually the ungracious folk prove out to be pretty unsmart as well.)

anybody wants to back channel talk to me they may. hambini, FLO, damon and paulo know where to find me.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
BigHammer wrote:

The most disappointing aspect of this entire thread is that the idea Hambini proposed intrigues me. What if the basic premise is correct? How do we learn more? And from which....credible....source?


I think we'll learn more once we get a handle on the best practices on using all the new "aero sticks" to test equipment. If there is a significant difference between "real world airflow" and "non-louvered wind tunnel flow" it should eventually emerge.

I'm of half a mind to just do my own Chung-style testing of a Flo6 vs a Bontrager Aeolus 6 using an outdoor course and doing enough repetition to account for wind gusts, etc.. If there is indeed a 25W difference @50km/h per the Hambini graph, it should pop right out in the data. (But if I do this I will present my data as a hobbyist, not an expert).

If so, the measurements of CdA we find in the wind tunnel would not be usable for predicting power or speed in the real world, nor the measurements of CdA found by widely varying speed in field tests. In addition, applications like Best Bike Split would be way off.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman, I am so glad you piped up and set the record straight on Damon, truly a gentle person who is very knowledgeable. When he says "no" I listen. In this discussion there are some interesting ideas, but as usual the wheat gets lost in the chaff that is the norm of this and many other forum discussions.

These guys are from the aerospace industry and probably know a thing or two about fluid dynamics, but as I understand (and I am no expert) that there are differences between info gained in high speed wind tunnels and low speed as well as what sort of enclosures or lack there of is present to affect the flow... so though I assume the ordinal values of a shoot out between wheels in a single well controlled wind tunnel should be similar the actual data will likely vary by where/ which wind tunnel and how it is collected...In addition I know a number of wheel companies have designed their own outdoor testing/ aero stick rigs as is the case for FLO, Mavic, Swiss Side and probably many others. So I assume they have done a fair bit of homework to make their wheels perform in the ways that they do.

In the end it might be nice if there was a common method (even if it has some minor flaws) that would allow people or companies to compare data. It is unlikely though when something pretty simple can not be agreed upon such as the many different ways to determine bike weight or frame weight.

Hopefully reason can prevail here and we can get some interesting knowledge regarding aerodynamics shared.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:

If so, the measurements of CdA we find in the wind tunnel would not be usable for predicting power or speed in the real world, nor the measurements of CdA found by widely varying speed in field tests. In addition, applications like Best Bike Split would be way off.


I agree. But still, it'd still be a fun hobbyist exercise for the likes of me. Because given the claim of a huge magnitude of Flo6 vs. other-6 (and Flo wheels have done well in some other wind tunnel testing), even a hobbyist hack with Golden Cheetah should be able to see the effect (as long as some level of competence is practiced in testing).

And Flo is kind of the only real anomaly in the results, I think? Everything else kind of falls in line with what we'd expect from prior testing. At least in ordinal ranking. I'm not sure about magnitude of differences.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
I agree. But still, it'd still be a fun hobbyist exercise for the likes of me.

All of this is a hobbyist exercise for me. Usually fun, occasionally not so much, but always a hobby. Hmmm. But that's cuz I hadn't realized that manufacturers would pay for supportive posts on internet fora. I feel that I missed an opportunity. I'll work for a six-pack of beer but nothing mass-market. I have standards.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I think we know why only Flo was targeted...

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
damon_rinard wrote:


No.


I'm kinda glad I was too busy to follow this thread earlier.
Me too. I just wasted ~30mins reading the whole thing, and pretty confident I'm the worse for it.
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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Because of their performance? Maybe I'm just missing something, but hambini seems to be taking flo's results personally
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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exactly. Zipp or Enve would be tilting at windmills, but Flo is more in his sphere of influence. A startup done right by a couple of likeable guys.

imswimmer328 wrote:
Because of their performance? Maybe I'm just missing something, but hambini seems to be taking flo's results personally

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Updated: A Comprehensive (But Controversial) Wind Tunnel Wheel Shootout [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
I think we know why only Flo was targeted...

I don't get it. Why was only Flo called out? They may be a much smaller company than say Mavic but how would that be related? Are you saying that he is picking a fight with Flo and that he'd be afraid to do so with a bigger company?
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