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First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt???
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Did a Guru session (shout out to Evolve Bikes in Celebration FL!), results are as follows; also posting a Dropbox link if you want to see all the PDF result.

The system recommended a Felt B16 size 60... but the fitter told me to look for a 58 or 56 since I'm 1.74 mts (5'9") long torso, short legs.

Something that was discussed was my preference for a seat tube angle of 82 (!!!)

What do you think?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kp19krooaea2vjd/GuruReport.pdf?dl=0


Saddle height over BB 736mm
Saddle setback -6mm
Drop from saddle to bars 52mm
Reach from saddle to bars 851mm


Extension lenght 300mm
Pad reach 500mm
Pad Stack 677mm
Pad height 50mm
Pad offset 55mm
Pad center to center 20mm
Crank lenght 170mm


BIKE CONFIGURATION
Stem Length 110mm
Stem Angle -6 degrees
Spacers 25 mm
Frame reach 461mm
Frame stack 561mm
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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I am 181 with long legs and arms and rode 58cm road bikes for years and have now gone to 56 to be more aggressive. Always ridden a medium tri bike since taking up tris. I have never seen anyone shorter than about 6'2" ride a 60cm frame which is well in the large zone.
Last edited by: Shambolic: May 13, 18 17:17
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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MarioTB wrote:
Did a Guru session (shout out to Evolve Bikes in Celebration FL!), results are as follows; also posting a Dropbox link if you want to see all the PDF result.

The system recommended a Felt B16 size 60... but the fitter told me to look for a 58 or 56 since I'm 1.74 mts (5'9") long torso, short legs.

Something that was discussed was my preference for a seat tube angle of 82 (!!!)

What do you think?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kp19krooaea2vjd/GuruReport.pdf?dl=0


Saddle height over BB 736mm
Saddle setback -6mm
Drop from saddle to bars 52mm
Reach from saddle to bars 851mm


Extension lenght 300mm
Pad reach 500mm
Pad Stack 677mm
Pad height 50mm
Pad offset 55mm
Pad center to center 20mm
Crank lenght 170mm


BIKE CONFIGURATION
Stem Length 110mm
Stem Angle -6 degrees
Spacers 25 mm
Frame reach 461mm
Frame stack 561mm
What saddle did they have you on? 6 mm in front of the bottom bracket isn't 82 degrees for any of the saddles I use.

52 mm drop seems pretty pedestrian for a saddle height that high.

B16? Felt hasn't made a B16 in many years. DId you mean IA 16? If so, something is amiss because the IA 16 isn't even close to long enough for what the Guru spit out.

That frame reach is longer than any frame on the market. I think your saddle was too steep.

Is pad reach to the edge of the pad or the center of the pad?

I've seen a number of Guru fits that have a picture like that. Do you have any side pictures? That picture from the front is utterly worthless.

Trent Nix
Tri Shop - Plano, Texas
http://www.trishop.com
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F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter - Fit Portfolio
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the response, here's my answers:


Saddle was an ISM Racing (they said it was the closer to the ISM Prologue I have).

Don't know about the 52mm drop...

B16 was the output. I know it is old, but that was the only 561x461 listed in it... it is in this link too https://www.slowtwitch.com/stackreach/

If the saddle was too steep, what now? Should I repeat the fit?

Pad reach to the edge or center... again don't know... I will ask. Should be the center.

No side pictures... I thought I was going to get that too.
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, that is why I'm looking for perhaps a 56... I currently ride a 52 with a 13mm stem, and it is not long enough. 52 since my inseam is 0.77 m, or 30.3 inches.
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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Dan usualy says that if you only get 1(or even 0! and have to add a pretty special stem to get results) bike at the stack and reach database something is wrong.

Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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MarioTB wrote:
Thanks for the response, here's my answers:


Saddle was an ISM Racing (they said it was the closer to the ISM Prologue I have).

Don't know about the 52mm drop...

B16 was the output. I know it is old, but that was the only 561x461 listed in it... it is in this link too https://www.slowtwitch.com/stackreach/

If the saddle was too steep, what now? Should I repeat the fit?

Pad reach to the edge or center... again don't know... I will ask. Should be the center.

No side pictures... I thought I was going to get that too.
From what I can tell, your fitter made two major mistakes that make your recommendations nonsensical. The first one is that the fitter let the athlete take charge of the fit too much and let the saddle come way too far forward. The ISM Racing is a stub-nosed saddle and it has to be set up a couple of cm behind the bottom bracket. Going forward with that saddle to +6 mm in front of the bottom bracket is a saddle position that many bikes - such as those with a 78 degree neutral seatpost angle - can't support. The other consequence of going that far forward is that it's created a scenario where your armpads are so far forward that your bike options are unnecessarily limited.

This is a mistake I've made before. This is a mistake my fitters have made before. And it's a problem you can fix with some math (assuming the position is, otherwise, pretty good).

I think every good fitter using a fit bike has created a saddle position that's too steep - if not on a tri bike fit, then for sure on a road bike fit. So this is forgiveable (we have a competitor that uses a fit bike, provides ZERO fit coordinates, and writes down a list of bikes that supposedly fit on a post-it note and those bikes often have no geometric relation to each other and his customers have no idea how poor that process is or his fits are - so don't be too hard on your fitter because at least they put their fit coordinates out there to be scrutinized).

The second mistake is the fit photos aren't useful. There is no excuse not to provide fit photos showing a side profile while in motion. That front-facing photo while you're in the middle of a conversation is useless and indicates the fit software was used sloppily. Without any fit photos, it's impossible to know whether your fit is actually any good. That 52 mm drop, while on the smaller side, might be absolutely appropriate. Without photos, it's impossible to tell.

Fit photos are more important, by far, than body geometry measurements (which you also don't have). I've seen a number of fits that have good body geometry measurements that, because the acceptable ranges are so big or marker placement was poor, was actually a terrible fit once the fit photos/video were analyzed.

Those two mistakes tell me that your fit is likely not all that great. Your fitter may be very good, but the fit is not for whatever reason.

Let's assume your position, outside of being too far forward, is otherwise pretty decent. You report a pad stack of 677 and a pad reach of 500. If that pad reach is to the middle of the pad, you can subtract 40-45 mm to get to the pad edge (which is a better measurement of position in my opinion). So now you're at 677 and 455.

The saddle needs to come back 25 mm and that brings the cockpit back another 25 mm, so you're at a pad reach of 430.

Since you pulled the saddle back 25 mm, you need to lower it a bit as well - let's say 5 mm - to maintain a similar saddle height. If the saddle drops 5 mm, the cockpit should drop the same, so now we have a 672 mm armpad stack and a 430 mm armpad reach.

Using our internal fit tool that measures to the armpad edge, I've attached the resulting report.

Understand, these recommendations are based on several major assumptions that may not be true: 1) your initial fit is good, just too far forward and 2) the changes I've made won't be destructive. Some of the bikes listed will support a steeper saddle position and a more forward armpad position, so you may very well find that you don't have to go as far back as I did in my math. I've also made sure the bike choices provide you the opportunity to lower the cockpit, as I suspect a 52 mm drop might not be as low as you can reasonably go.

Our fit report also includes bike photos and details of each bike, but I had to only provide the first page due to Slowtwitch only allowing attachments of 250kb or less.

All of this is intended as a thought exercise since I can't see whether your fit is of any quality, so please consider the recommendations list with a grain of salt.

Trent Nix
Tri Shop - Plano, Texas
http://www.trishop.com
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F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter - Fit Portfolio
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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One other note - those stack and reach ranges listed do not include possible stem changes are possible alternative configurations (such as armpads mounted directly on the base bar and an extension undermount - etc.). One of the reasons armpad stack and reach numbers aren't reported by vendors is because there can be reasonable disagreement on two points:
  • How much adjustment is possible on a bike - do we consider only stock parts, etc.?
  • How much adjustment is reasonable on a bike - just because a bike can support 10 cm or pedestals, for example, does that mean we should consider that a good fit?

We tend to be pretty conservative on these points and let the fitter consider possible adjustments based on the circumstance and budget of the fit customer.

Trent Nix
Tri Shop - Plano, Texas
http://www.trishop.com
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Youtube
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter - Fit Portfolio
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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the biggest 'wtf' moment is a recommendation to a bike thats not even made anymore?!! I ride an adamo racing saddle and im 2 or 3cm behind the bottom bracket from memory. And i thought i rode very forward/steep....+6 is out there!
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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Listen to Trent.

But my $.02... a size 60 bike is usually for people that are like 6'4" and not 5'8". People your height should be using a 54 as the start point. Maybe a 56 due to reach requirements. No on a 58 and no on a 60. A size 60 is basically an XL or XXL bike.

Heights just one part of the equation but generally a big one. I get you have long torso, short legs so your needs skew towards reach over stack but you wouldn't even be able to stand over the frame of a size 60 bike.

2018 Races:
Augusta 70.3, September 23rd | Waco 70.3, Waco, TX, October 28th | Cartagena 70.3, Cartagena, Colombia December 2nd

Gear: Dimond Bikes | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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trentnix wrote:
.
Let's assume your position, outside of being too far forward, is otherwise pretty decent. You report a pad stack of 677 and a pad reach of 500. If that pad reach is to the middle of the pad, you can subtract 40-45 mm to get to the pad edge (which is a better measurement of position in my opinion). So now you're at 677 and 455.

Aerobar package with a DFU is usually the old Zipp Vuka Clip, so 120mm long armrests. I don't see anything to indicate that this store would have chosen to do something different. Thus we end up with pad x rear of 440.

Still looking at a very high y/x ratio for someone with a long torso. If he does indeed have a long torso, saddle is high if that is the case. And the saddle-bars reach means that either he is crunched or actually not long torso. There is a lot of conflicted info out of this fit.


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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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The b16 is still available overseas. Same frame as the current b14 but I think 105 spec (maybe something else).
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [tickyboy] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, but 60 is out of the question now. I will look for a 56 or 58 (if the brand is "small" fitted) based on all the responses.
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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Wow! Thanks for all the info and recommendations. I love those Felt IA10s!

For starters I have asked the fitter to send me my "second best" fit that was recorded in the session. I think that was done with a 79 degree seat post angle, and maybe seeing those numbers can help me out better. The power did not go down with that, only a bit of confort within the hip area. I felt it was more closed that way.

The 52mm I think was the response to a specific problem we discussed, me getting tired of looking out front on the TT position. It is not that bad, I can manage a 70.3 but I'm starting to train for my first Ironman in Cozumel next November. The second position was not that bad in those terms.

Would it help if I took my body measurements with something like this? https://www.competitivecyclist.com/...itCalculatorBike.jsp
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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I can take more measurements with a calculator like this: https://www.competitivecyclist.com/...itCalculatorBike.jsp

But, I'm pretty sure about the long torso. I was a swimmer and my upper size in almost every brand is a Large. Pants and shorts are always Medium... but yeah, I made some measurements before. 0.77m inseam (30"), for a 1.74 m (5'9") guy, is a long torso.
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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MarioTB wrote:
0.77m inseam (30"), for a 1.74 m (5'9") guy, is a long torso.

Yes it is. Generally I'd expect that inseam to go with a saddle height more like 680mm, unless they found you some extraordinarily short cranks.
So you can see why I felt there was a contradiction.

Knocking 50mm out of the pad Y (to correspond to dropping the saddle) would make a big difference to the bikes you're looking for. We'd now be talking about frame sizes that don't seem so outlandish for your height. And you would have more options.


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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Right. I will be looking for something around 56 I guess... now what brand? and the money! LOL
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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Using Trents workings about setback and Pad X, plus what I said about lower saddle and bars gives this estimated position and some bike options



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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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This is great info thanks!

I'm confused, Trent's analysis resulted in a 56 Felt IA, and yours tells me 51? even shorter than the 52 I currently ride..?
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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MarioTB wrote:

I'm confused, Trent's analysis resulted in a 56 Felt IA, and yours tells me 51? even shorter than the 52 I currently ride..?
Because I searched for a bike 50mm lower and 15mm further back than he did.
Thanks to allowing for a lower saddle height and the length of the zipp armrests that were most likely used on the DFU.

That you have a 52 doesn't necessarily mean much. Do you know the reach of the frame?
The IA has quite high stack bars, you would be on a 54 with different bars


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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [trentnix] [ In reply to ]
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Not to hijack the thread, but why do you think that the back of the pad is a better spot for measurement? Sure, it's a tiny bit simpler to measure. But center of pad will eliminate pad length as a variable that might cause confusion?
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [minimalist] [ In reply to ]
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minimalist wrote:
Not to hijack the thread, but why do you think that the back of the pad is a better spot for measurement? Sure, it's a tiny bit simpler to measure. But center of pad will eliminate pad length as a variable that might cause confusion?
The center of the pad would make sense if rider's were determining elbow placement based on the entire pad, but in my experience elbow placement is based on where the edge of the pad is.

While that can be confusing considering Trek, Cervelo, and Felt publish their armpad ranges based on the middle of the pad, I think edge of the pad (which is what Retul measures) is a more accurate contact point measurement. You're more likely to have variance from bike to bike using the center of the pad and that defeats the purpose of fit coordinates in the first place.

Trent Nix
Tri Shop - Plano, Texas
http://www.trishop.com
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | Youtube
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter - Fit Portfolio
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Ah! there you go. My current bike is a Felt S22 2012 model, with a 13mm stem instead of the original 80mm one. Listed in Felt's database as a 502 stack and 407 reach frame.

http://2012.feltracing.com/USA/2012/TT-TRI/TT-TRI-Series/S22.aspx
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [MarioTB] [ In reply to ]
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With which aerobars? How far are the pads setback?


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Last edited by: cyclenutnz: May 14, 18 13:16
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Re: First Pro fit results in... what bike do I get? 1.74m tall and a size 60 Felt??? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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gotta love voice to txt
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