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Re: Critique my swim videos [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i have nothing to teach you. no doubt others might. but your technique is beyond the limit of my ability to find fault. a lot of readers on this forum would trade their swim technique for yours.


That is a phenomenal post on many levels. As always, it is kind, insightful, and humble, and that's why we love you.

It is also a brilliantly succinct example of the limitations of a corrective approach. "I can't identify a flaw, so I cant help you." is the essence of it, when "I won't identify a flaw, so I can help you." is a better place to begin, especially with a stroke that is as classically "good looking" as this one. It's nice to look nice, but if he's not busting out some seriously quick swimming from that pretty stroke, there is room for improvement.

First, I am curious what that stroke looks like in the last 50 of an all out 200/500/1000 time trial. Second, the feet don't seem to be doing much, and there is very little opportunity to evaluate kick timing. Third, until a process driven by passive fundamental development is undertaken, we don't know where this might end up. It's a very real possibility that both 'uglier' and faster are the result.
Last edited by: FindinFreestyle: Jan 3, 18 13:15
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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I'm happy to help, and appreciate what a complex puzzle this swimming thing is. Over the arc of my coaching career (almost 40 years) I've had to abandon nearly everything I used to 'know' to be true.

With regard to my suggestion with your hands--you just want there to be light separation between the fingers, not purposely spread 'jazz hands.' In some ways it's like figuring out how tightly to hold a baseball bat or golf club (two things I am horrible at): too loose and nothing happens, too tight and speed, power and accuracy suffer. The tension in your hands will (and should) fluctuate during various phases of the stroke--firming up as you establish a decent catch, releasing as you exit and recover. I think the human default is 'too tight,' just as it is for nearly everyone who picks up a golf club for the first time. For what it's worth, I think "feel for the water" really means "understanding how much force to exert, and when." It's not about brute strength as much as it is selecting the most effective pressure to promote forward movement with minimal slippage. Kind of like walking on an icy surface in sneakers: apply too much force and you lose traction/slip; apply too little and you don't advance at all.

Here's another point you may want to consider. I don't recall seeing underwater video of your stroke, so I don't know if this specifically applies to you, but it's something most people could improve: As you extend forward below the surface, how deep is your wrist at peak extension? As you reach forward with, say, your right arm, the right side of your body also rolls deeper into the water, which makes the right shoulder dip maybe 8-10 inches below the surface. Because we never want your wrist to be shallower/nearer to the surface than your shoulder, your wrist should also be at least that deep, and likely 1-4 inches deeper. In other words, your wrist should probably extend forward about 12-14 inches below the surface.

I've attempted to add images but for some reason mine just show up as links at the end of the post rather than embedded like so many others here. Sigh.

In the side view image you can see the wrist is a slight slope down from the shoulder/elbow. In the head on view the swimmer is purposely sneaking a look forward to confirm the orientation out front--she was observing a slight downhill slope to her wrist. The 'uphill' image shows what NOT to do--direct the wrist to a location shallower than the shoulder. Experimenting with this aspect of your mechanics can improve your horizontal balance and rotation, set up a better 'pre-catch' phase, and reduce strain on your shoulders/deltoids. It's a fairly simple thing to play with, and I find it inexplicable that so few swimmers (and coaches) seem to bother with it despite how clearly the orientation out front impacts what happens next.

But don't take my word for it ("because I said so" is a terrible answer to pretty much everything.) Run experiments as suggested in my earlier post, only work through a range of options in the front of your stroke from very shallow, maybe 1-2 inches below the surface, to increasingly deeper end points--6", 10", 14", etc. Again, perform enough strokes at every option so you can process how each choice plays out. I don't think I've run across a swimmer yet who runs that test and proclaims 'shallow' as a good option. It is almost universally the worst one.

Sorry if my posts are overly long--I'm an old timer accustomed to things like books, and complete sentences.
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Zippy303] [ In reply to ]
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I hesitate to chime in when users named FindingFreestyle and StrokeDoctor have commented extensively, but...

It would appear that your hand has too much side-to-side motion during your pull. I think the current view is that the hand should trace as straight a line (viewed from above and relative to the pool, not your body) as possible from hand entry (in front of the shoulder, not the head as you seem to do a bit) to hand exit. The old S-stroke is no longer.

I recall finding an overhead view of Sun Yang in some championship, and his hand draws a perfectly straight line. Any sideways motion is wasted effort. (edit: here's a good example. Check out slow motion at 1:30)

Your stroke looks good from that limited view. You might want to stop trying to avoid hurting the water on hand entry: pick up the recovery arm speed and get that hand back into the water!

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Last edited by: klehner: Jan 3, 18 14:08
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, can't upload a quality video under 250kb

#OldMenTriHarder
#SwimBikeRunLikeABadger
#SwimBikeRunLikeAngels
Last edited by: OldMenTriHarder: Feb 25, 18 9:35
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Re: Critique my swim videos [OldMenTriHarder] [ In reply to ]
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OldMenTriHarder wrote:
Critiquing my own swim "technique" - I can see a lot of leg splay, arms crossing or near crossing the center-line, and elbows not high during the pull. The question is how to fix all this "stuff"...

i'm not an expert. i'm a guy like you, who just fixed a bunch of my own problems. it turns out the fixes i hit on are commonly used, which gives me some comfort in my own methodology.

as i've written in the guppy challenge installments, there seems to me to be 2 kinds of drills:

1. the kind that magnify your flaw, forcing you to make a change out of necessity (or desperation).
2. the kind that erase your flaw., showing you what good form looks like when you employ it.

binding your ankles together magnifies your flaw. it keeps you from splaying your legs. in my opinion, for all but the best swimmers, you ought to do this with a swim buoy, to float your ankles or legs. the point of binding your ankles is to keep you from normalizing for that twisting motion pulling you out of line. if we don't float your legs you can't concentrate on fixing this isolated problem.

using a center snorkel helps erases or hides a flaw. it's my guess that if you swim with bound ankles and a buoy you'll fishtail your way down the pool. if you swim that way with a snorkel you probably won't fishtail, or not as much. this means it's your breathing that's causing this fishtail. we need to fix the thing you do when you breathe that causes you to fishtail.

some here might say, "no! it's the crossover!" however, i'll bet you dollars to donuts that your crossover happens when you breathe. you may well not have a crossover, just, when you jackknife and twist at the waist during your breathing this pulls your body out of line. your hand may well be right in front of your shoulder, but your upper body may be positioned at an angle, and not toward the end of the pool.

so, what i would do if i were you, i would fashion some way to bind and float your ankles. there are a number of buoys made for this. and i would buy a center snorkel. me, i use both. at the beginning of every workout, swim 6 x 50yd with bound ankles and a snorkel. then swim 6 x 50yd with bound ankles and no snorkel. just try to do whatever it is that keeps you from fishtailing. then, commence your workout. if you do that for 2 or 3 months much of your leg splay and crossover will be solved.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dan!

Sorry I was not able to upload a video. It looks like most are doing this through YouTube - so we'll try it again later.

After completing the Guppy Challenge, I promised some updates on TT's. For the 1000, on 2/1/2018 clocked a 23:16 - trying to maintain bi-lateral breathing as best as possible. On 2/20/2018 clocked a 21:20 - combination bi-lateral + single side taking in air when needed. This was a significant improvement - almost 2:00. But still not below that 1:00 / 50 yds I'm striving for.

SWOLF - 42 strokes + 51.6 secs / 50. Significant improvement to 93.8 from usually the upper 90's almost 100. Now if we can only translate that low 50's per 50 yards.

As to your suggestions. I've "created" a training plan for "post-Guppy Challenge" but am going to re-adjust it with the drills you have suggested to be completed after warm-up.

Somehow we'll get through this splaying issue and move on to the next technique problem.

OldMenTriHarder - and it takes longer to teach an old dog new tricks.....
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Re: Critique my swim videos [OldMenTriHarder] [ In reply to ]
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here's my question. and i'm not going to pummel you if the answer is no. have you yet tried binding your ankles?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes - tied with the pull buoy as directed in the Guppy Challenge. Using chopped off old swim caps like rubber bands around strapped around the buoy and then slide your feet in. Fly through the water like Mark Spitz


No - not without it the pull buoy. Did you want me to try?

#OldMenTriHarder
#SwimBikeRunLikeABadger
#SwimBikeRunLikeAngels
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Re: Critique my swim videos [OldMenTriHarder] [ In reply to ]
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OldMenTriHarder wrote:
Yes - tied with the pull buoy as directed in the Guppy Challenge. Using chopped off old swim caps like rubber bands around strapped around the buoy and then slide your feet in. Fly through the water like Mark Spitz


No - not without it the pull buoy. Did you want me to try?

if you BOUND your ankles, and you swam without a buoy, and swam laps, i need to be taking swim lessons from you.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I finally got some videos of my swim. I am an AOS and this is my 4th season doing Triathlon. Last year I swam IMAC 70.3 in 40 mins with a ROKA wetsuit. In the videos below I am swimming about 1:54/100M pace, which is pushing a little, but not uncomfortable. I was working on my glide and body position this session. Any feedback is appreciated.






2016 Specialized Shiv Pro Race 1x
2015 Specialized Venge
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Re: Critique my swim videos [ryryrocco] [ In reply to ]
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ryryrocco wrote:
I finally got some videos of my swim. I am an AOS and this is my 4th season doing Triathlon. Last year I swam IMAC 70.3 in 40 mins with a ROKA wetsuit. In the videos below I am swimming about 1:54/100M pace, which is pushing a little, but not uncomfortable. I was working on my glide and body position this session. Any feedback is appreciated.


not bad at all! what i really like is the front half of your stroke. hand near the surface as you extend, and then your pull occurs with purpose, rather than hand drifting down in the water and then (as with a lot of folks) by the time the pull commences the hand is already halfway thru the stroke. so, nice going.

but you want to know how to get faster, not get a medal for how you're swimming currently. i think there are 3 things i'd work on if i were you.

- the first two are kick associated. you kick is by no means bad. but i'd like to see your feet a bit higher in the water, and i'd like to kick to be tighter. so, look at this video. really, just the first 30sec should do it.




TYR makes basically the same buoy. what i don't like about the TYR is that the ankle holes are too big. i don't know about the finis buoy, haven't tried it yet. but, you get the point. this will cause you to feel what it's like to swim with your feet: a) on the surface; and b) together. there are several methods to bind your ankles, and float your ankles, to achieve this. but these buoys are a pretty good illustration of what i'm talking about.


- i believe it's your left hand (whatever hand that's the side you breathe on) does a real scenic route through the water. your other hand is nice, a straight pull, no problem (tho i'd like to see your forearm square up to the water a bit more affirmatively). why does your left hand do those left and right movements during the pull? i'm going to hazard a guess that it's designed to correct your body's line thru the water. it's not anything you choose to do, it's an unconscious move to keep aligned. i don't know. kind of doesn't much matter. you just need to get rid of that. don't think about anything other than squaring up to the water and yanking as much water back as possible.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Dan, ankle buoy ordered. I have noticed the pull of my left arm as kind of making an "s" in the water. maybe some more strength needed to get it to go straight back.

Thanks again

2016 Specialized Shiv Pro Race 1x
2015 Specialized Venge
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Re: Critique my swim videos [ryryrocco] [ In reply to ]
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ryryrocco wrote:
Thanks Dan, ankle buoy ordered. I have noticed the pull of my left arm as kind of making an "s" in the water. maybe some more strength needed to get it to go straight back. Thanks again

more strength is always a good thing. but i doubt that's the reason. the other hand doesn't do it. i think it's a stabilizing gesture. which sounds good. except that if we take away the need to stabilize with that gesture, then the hand (and arm) can focus on its job, which is to grab and hold water and pull your body over it.

you're weak in the last part of your pull. elbow drops. that is the result of a lack of strength. that hand movement is probably something else. the ankle buoy is going to help with this as well, because it'll expose anything you do that pulls your body out of alignment.

here was my warmup yesterday:

6 x 50yd with ankle buoy
6 x 50yd regular swim
3 x 100yd w/ankle buoy
3 x 100yd regular swim

then off to the rest of my workout. if you do something like this, you won't believe how much straighter, more aligned, you swim in your regular swims just after swimming with that ankle buoy. much easier to focus on proper hand and arm position and behavior during the pull.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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thanks. for the warm up are you swimming at a comfortable endurance or pushing the pace to get a little fatigued to expose the flaws more?

edit: swimming is so hard for me. for cycling i only have to think about staying low and pedaling hard!

2016 Specialized Shiv Pro Race 1x
2015 Specialized Venge
Last edited by: ryryrocco: Apr 4, 18 8:08
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Re: Critique my swim videos [ryryrocco] [ In reply to ]
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make sure on both hands your fingers are closed. on your left hand your fingers are too relaxed. same with your wrist. keep your hand and arm at an even level. make sure elbow is up on every pull to catch more water. small fast kicks is key
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Re: Critique my swim videos [legitlegit] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the advice. I never noticed my fingers before, I will now!

2016 Specialized Shiv Pro Race 1x
2015 Specialized Venge
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Re: Critique my swim videos [ryryrocco] [ In reply to ]
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Swim rookie question - That finis axis buoy - doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of immobilizing/banding the ankles since it also floats them??
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Re: Critique my swim videos [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
Swim rookie question - That finis axis buoy - doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of immobilizing/banding the ankles since it also floats them??

Not really, since the purpose of the buoy isn't to teach you how to be level (i.e. it does that for you). It is to teach you how to swim without fishtailing from side to side.

We used to use a makeshift version of it on occasion back in the day, coach had us swim with the buoy at our ankles. Can't remember if we used bands with it to hold it on, or just squeeze with the ankles. I suspect it was a bit of both.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Critique my swim videos [ryryrocco] [ In reply to ]
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ryryrocco wrote:
thanks. for the warm up are you swimming at a comfortable endurance or pushing the pace to get a little fatigued to expose the flaws more?

edit: swimming is so hard for me. for cycling i only have to think about staying low and pedaling hard!

warm-up. very comfortable. thinking mostly about technique, not speed. also, if you're not drilling it all the time you can get in more yards, and yards are key. volume is key. swimming will be easier if:

1. you do more of it;
2. you do it with others (masters team).

if you take a year and devote yourself to it, you make the jump, you're there, and you now don't have to worry about sucking at it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Critique my swim videos [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcanuck wrote:
Swim rookie question - That finis axis buoy - doesn't it kind of defeat the purpose of immobilizing/banding the ankles since it also floats them??

i want the ankles floated. i'm not a fan of banding ankles without floating them unless you're so good of a swimmer that you're giving rather than soliciting advice here.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Critique my swim videos [ryryrocco] [ In reply to ]
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ryryrocco wrote:
thanks. for the warm up are you swimming at a comfortable endurance or pushing the pace to get a little fatigued to expose the flaws more?

edit: swimming is so hard for me. for cycling i only have to think about staying low and pedaling hard!

Matt Biondi made a point of being the slowest guy in warmup. If it worked for him.....

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Critique my swim videos [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I've done it both ways. If you don't use a band to hold it on you get more of a core workout since you're consciously having to squeeze the buoy.
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Re: Critique my swim videos [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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JoelO wrote:
I've done it both ways. If you don't use a band to hold it on you get more of a core workout since you're consciously having to squeeze the buoy.

Thighmaster

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Critique my swim videos [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Week 8 (today): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiF8AkrxXzY
Week 7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBRDyceuwI
Week 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq8xhrwQrwo

Original post with background and comments: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6641082#p6641082

I didn't realize this thread existed and was a little late to the party. Thank you for putting these 10 weeks together!
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Re: Critique my swim videos [muymoo] [ In reply to ]
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Can we all post videos for feedback here or is this mainly for the Guppy challenge crew?
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