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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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Hello

I am still having problems swimming the longer sets. Problems to the extent that after 150m I feel like my form is falling apart. I think the problem comes from the fact that my upper arms really start to tire. Probably my triceps. They begin to feel achy and dull, a bit like how they might feel from doing weights. Should this be happening or am I pulling the wrong way? My chest/back feel fine, do I need to involve them more, if so how do I achieve that?

Many thanks
David
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [davidwilcock] [ In reply to ]
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It could be several things.
* Starting off too fast. Every distance requires pacing. Your 50 pace is not going work for a 200.
* Pulling too deep or wide...this might feel powerful but it's not the most effective or efficient use of your energy,
* Low hips/legs causing drag which causes you to have to work harder...you'll need to check on your head position to make sure it's not riding too high.
* Pushing on the back half of the stroke (I'm thinking this might be the triceps issue). There's some conflict among the coaches on this point. Pure swimming coaches might tell you to push all the way to the thigh and other coaches will say to cut off the stroke sooner than that since most of the propulsion occurs sooner in the pull. I don't know the correct answer to this but I know my triceps feel it when I do extend my stroke.

All of these ( well at least 2-4) can be confirmed via some video footage.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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That's really helpful, thanks.

In terms of pacing - I have tried slowing down my stroke rate to pace slower, is that the right thing? Its the only way I could think to do it. It seems like less effort that way but extends the time between breaths (I breath every third time my arm goes in the water).

I actually did a swim analysis video in a static pool or whatever its called. This was a few years back, the coach did tell me to pull back all the way but I did notice what you are saying about it creating issues with triceps tiring. will try not pulling so far back. My technique has changed a lot since then but maybe its time for another session as getting some in pool footage is hard for me. I think all of your points may be happening.

Thanks again, I appreciate it
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [davidwilcock] [ In reply to ]
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You've hit on an issue with breathing every 3. You need more air for longer and/or faster efforts. I would suggest 1 of 3 things for your breathing:
1) breathe every 2 on your dominant side
2) breathe every 2 but switch sides after each 25 or 50
3) breathe on a 2/2/3 pattern

You'll stay a lot fresher on the longer efforts by breathing more often than every 3.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
HandHeartCrown wrote:



you are so in luck! by week-4 you're going to be a new man. in specific answer:

you're exhausted because how you swim is exhausting. by week-8 you'll breeze through 2000 yards easily.


So, I'm 5 2/3 through the challenge. I wasn't expecting to turn into Michael Phelps but I a still very frustrated. A "new man" - most definitely not. In fact I've regressed (in my opinion). I'm even having swimming related nightmares!

Observations:
1) I see no noticeable change in my swim times nor in the effort required. My average interval times (in a 25y pool) are 1:03-04 (50y), 2:10-2:15 (100), 4:30-4:35 (200y). The 500y interval we did in week 4 took 11:33 (in the middle of the range for this interval over the past 18 months) and the 1000y interval we did last week took 23:16 (I can run a very casual 5K in less time). My 50y kick time is 1:15 with fins; I can't kick a length without fins. I require 30-34 strokes to complete one 25y length.

2) I don't "get" the drills. The one-arm pulls are a nightmare. First, I need fins or I can complete a length. With fins, My stroke is a mess. My feet are sinking, my body twists, my head is popping out of the water to breath and my pull arm shoulder is being stressed. The bound ankle highlights what I already knew - I fishtail like my 1985 Mazda RX7 did in a New England snow storm. I can't breath with the center snorkel. It's bad enough fighting the water; I don't want to fight the tools.

3) I'm still exhausted by the time I hit 1000-1200y. By 1500y my form has crapped out to the point it's almost not worth finishing the workout. Anyone of these workouts is more strenuous than the 15K I "raced" this past weekend through the Newton hills on the Boston Marathon course (i.e. Heartbreak Hill and friends).

With just over four weeks, I don't hold out much hope. But I'll persevere . Thank goodness the first races of the season are duathlons!
Last edited by: HandHeartCrown: Jan 17, 18 12:46
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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You and I seem to have all the same problems and I'll tell you things get better!

I started the 2017 guppy challenge before Dan posted the new workouts. I got to week 4 before starting the challenge over. In my first go around at the first four weeks I had the same problems, (heading bobbing up and down during 1 arm pull, couldn't kick 25 yards without fins, kicked a 50 with fins in 1:30). My times were pretty similar as well with my 50's coming in around 1:01. I also was shot after 1200-1500 yards.

Fast forward to giving myself a week break and starting the challenge over with the slightly modified workouts - my 50 times are around 0:55, I still kick a 1:25 with fins (but I've tightened it up), and the 1 arm drills are still difficult but they are better. The real improvement can be seen when I compare my first go around at workouts vs the following time. Example: Wk 4 workout 1 first round: 150's came in all over 3 minutes (3:01-3:06). 2nd Round: 150's came in all under 3 minutes (2:51-2:57). I wouldn't say I "breeze" through 2000 yards, but it's definitely easier than it was when I started.

Just get into the pool as much as possible and things will start to feel better.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So what is the thinking behind last weeks 1500 for time and this weeks 1500 for time? Should we expect to do it faster this week or are we looking down the road?
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [D.O.] [ In reply to ]
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D.O. wrote:
So what is the thinking behind last weeks 1500 for time and this weeks 1500 for time? Should we expect to do it faster this week or are we looking down the road?

just benchmark. if you're doing 1500 you're doing more than guppy yards. i expect the guppies to be making progress, even one week to the next.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Not a guppy when it come to swimming mindless laps but I am when it comes to doing structured laps. So far I've been able to drop my 50 kick w/o fins from 1:30 to 1:10 and the 1 arm pulls are smooth and fluid now compared to 5 weeks ago. Also am noticing that I am swimming faster with less perceived effort. Thanks for the challenge
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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A question about week 3 and the following phrase: "alternate freestyle and “stroke”"

What does the "stroke" mean? Been through the instructions and this thread and I'm not understanding.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Scheherazade] [ In reply to ]
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Scheherazade wrote:
A question about week 3 and the following phrase: "alternate freestyle and “stroke”"

What does the "stroke" mean? Been through the instructions and this thread and I'm not understanding.

this was discussed early on in the GC. stroke = any of the non-freestyle IM strokes.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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Thankyou for this advice, I had my first session after trying this and it made a huge difference, much appreciated
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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JoelO wrote:
You've hit on an issue with breathing every 3. You need more air for longer and/or faster efforts. I would suggest 1 of 3 things for your breathing:
1) breathe every 2 on your dominant side
2) breathe every 2 but switch sides after each 25 or 50
3) breathe on a 2/2/3 pattern

You'll stay a lot fresher on the longer efforts by breathing more often than every 3.


I started doing this last May or so, 16 years after taking up my AOS swimming. Made it easier to swim with a bit more force. If I only breathe to one side, I tend to feel like I'm hyperventillating on my right side (unless it's my all out sprint), and like I'm sinking and can't get enough air on my left side. Either side, if I only breathe that way I feel lost, like I can no longer tell if I'm on a straight trajectory. I need to do every 3 or 2/2/3 or I feel like I have no idea where I am. I now use this as a pacing strategy: every 3 on a recovery effort, 2/2/3 on firm efforts, 2 (to right) for all out 25's or 50's.

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
Last edited by: Tsunami: Jan 21, 18 13:43
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [davidwilcock] [ In reply to ]
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That's terrific! Glad it helped. Breathing every 3 or 5 does have it's place...for me, it's good training for when you miss a breath in a race due to contact, waves, etc...
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Tsunami] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder why you feel like you're hyperventilating on your right side. To me, it's a normal in/out breathing pattern...very rhythmic. I'm not taking in a big gulp of air...just enough to get me to the next breath after a steady exhale. Either way, whatever works for you keep doing.

Regarding keeping a straight path...I'm assuming you're talking about open water races/swimming. If you tend to veer you'll need to sight a bit more. My coach has us do sighting drills where we will swim 5-7 strokes, sight on a breathing stroke (by looking forward just enough to get a quick picture "alligator eyes" then immediately turn for the breath)...and repeat. She calls it alligator eyes because you're only raising your head to where your eyes are above the waterline.

I'm similar to you on breathing patterns. I'll swim every 2 or use a 2/2/4 pattern depending on distance and fatigue. I know, I should probably go with 2/2/3 but the 2/2/4 feels comfortable to me. All out 25s are usually 1 to 2 breaths depending on how fresh I feel. All out 50s are usually 3 breaths per 25.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Week 7 please and thank you
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [D.O.] [ In reply to ]
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D.O. wrote:
Week 7 please and thank you

it's up there. went up there yesterday.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Strange...I'm only seeing week 6
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Post a link maybe? Home computer and my phone are stuck on week 6. Thanks!
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [D.O.] [ In reply to ]
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It's on the front page. Click the Sun logo. Or, here's the direct link.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I was looking in the training section under swimming, my bad
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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Regarding this one, thanks for the tip! I heard this from another swimmer at the last OWS I did last season and this is a great reminder.
JoelO wrote:
... She calls it alligator eyes because you're only raising your head to where your eyes are above the waterline.

Regarding this part...
JoelO wrote:
I wonder why you feel like you're hyperventilating on your right side. To me, it's a normal in/out breathing pattern...very rhythmic..
I'd love to go more in depth with someone who has a good understanding of physiology because my response is not short, and while I want input I'm afraid it might be more than you're really asking to provide. So if you're game, I can PM you further details.

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Tsunami] [ In reply to ]
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Sent you a pm.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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I've been swimming with the TYR ankle buoy for a few weeks now. At what point should I try swimming with my ankles bound (w/out flotation)? I find it fairly easy to the drills with the bound/floated ankles at this point. (Note: I am only on week 5) When I swim regularly, I am still concentrating hard NOT to splay my feet when I breathe!

Second question, as for breathing, I inhale thru my mouth, but I think I exhale underwater both thru my nose and my mouth. Is it better to only exhale thru my nose? The latter is probably safest when using the snorkel, but I'm not sure if it matters so much for regular swimming?

Thanks!
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [swissymania] [ In reply to ]
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If you can swim with banded legs (no flotation) you are on the way to becoming an all star! It's not easy but this guy makes it look so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpXgRyc6r1U

It requires good lower back/glute strength, higher turnover and a bit of a catch-up style stroke. It gets more difficult the more you breathe. Try a set of 4x25 to get started. It gets a bit easier the more you practice it.

I don't know if there's a right way or wrong way to exhale. The experts on here might have a different take, but I do/have done it both ways. Some might advocate exhaling through your nose since it's consistent with how you should exhale on a flip turn. Personally, I don't have a problem remembering to exhale through my nose on a flip turn...it only takes one nose full of chlorine to let you know the "wrong" way!
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