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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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can i just tell you: this is not a hard problem to fix. but it does take some commitment and attention to the issue

Thanks Dan!

We're working on it.

It "feels" like I am getting closer to that "balance" in the water, getting the head down farther.

Something must be starting to click. The one arm drills are getting easier and the kick is getting more effective.

Three years of "learning" to swim For triathlon, starting at the young age of mid-50's, strictly using single sided breathing, and this year am finally getting comfortable with bi-lateral. This "Guppy Challenge" is playing a good part in this growth.

I have high hopes that when we reach the drills focusing on breathing, those 150's may get closer to 2:30. With an end goal of the 1 mile time trials in the low 30's.

#OldMenTriHarder
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It may be that my legs are sinking - I've made a lot of improvement there, but it may still be an issue (I should get some video so that we can both see what's going on). But as I said, I have no issues with a buoy between the thighs - that feels like swimming, just easier, because I don't have to work the legs to keep them afloat. Why would that not expose the same positional issues?
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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What has helped me the most is the explanation and now understanding what each drill is supposed to accomplish, in the past i would try drills not knowing what the focus was. I can say in only 2 weeks that I at least "feel" like I am swimming more downhill and with less cardio effort to swim close to the same 100 split times that were previously my 100 sprint. Thanks for doing this, thinking this will help immensely
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [D.O.] [ In reply to ]
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Today was Week 2, #3.
4 x 50 kick. Used Zoomers and board. Finished all in :55-:57. Should I ditch the fins? Maybe some kicking on my back?

Decending ladder: pace for all of these was right at 1:40/100. Even the 500. Does this indicate my leave should be 1:50?

Noticing my kick is smaller and tighter. Still no rhythm. My big toes seem to touch more often.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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It’s always good to kick some without fins...on the back is good too. As you get more proficient, you’ll kick more and more without fins. I can kick a 50 with fins under 40 but I struggle to break 30 seconds on a 25 without fins...ymmv. I’ve got flexibility issues in my left foot that’s hindering me...working on that.

1:40 pace is good. A 1:50 leave is ok if you’re working on endurance. If you’re working on speed you’ll want/need more rest.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Kick Set => 4 x 50yd kicking

This drill totally destroyed me - left little gas to do the ladder down.

I'm one of those that will do a kick drill using a board and actually start to go backwards. A result of "runner's feet" that like being at a right angle. A lot of work has been done including a DAILY child's pose stretch with the toes on a foam roller pushing down on the feet to hyperextend the stretch.

The good news is all 4 50 yard kick drills were completed in probably about 4 min each leg. In a way I found to at least move forward - ditch the board, put on a snorkel, stretch arms forward, and kick. The "balance" feels good with the feet breaking the surface quite well. I did notice that if I forced the toes to point out as much as possible, progress forward seemed a little faster. But I fear the result may end up being the calves cramping.

In true #NeverGiveUp fashion, the ladder down was completed - felt sloppy. Then took a good rest to do a few 100's and get a smooth swim feel back again.

#OldMenTriHarder
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#SwimBikeRunLikeAngels
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hi All Guppy Challengers,

We are well into Monday in Europe and I was looking for my frist workout of week 3 but couldn´t find any information on the main page.

Any idea when this will be up?

Happy training
bastri
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [bastri] [ In reply to ]
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bastri wrote:
Hi All Guppy Challengers,

We are well into Monday in Europe and I was looking for my frist workout of week 3 but couldn´t find any information on the main page.

Any idea when this will be up?

Happy training
bastri

we were slow on the draw this week. i like to have this up by the prior friday. sorry! it's up there now.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Week 3, workout #2: main set is 2 x ( 4 x (150 + 50kick) ). This is same as 8 x (150swim, + 50 kick), right? Or is is just 1 x 50 kick for each 4 x 150?
Track workouts were never this confusing! Lol.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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You're going to swim a 150 followed by a 50 kick 8 times with a short break after the 1st 4....total main set of 1600 yards/meters. When a coach writes it the way Slowman just did, they usually envision a mini break between the sets. ie. taking an extra 30 secs before you start the next round of 4.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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Please help me understand what I should leave on. Easy 50,100 is 50sec per 50, feel like I can swim that pace all day. All out 50 is 30 sec and 100 is 1:10. Having a hard time getting it thru my dense head, thanks!
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [D.O.] [ In reply to ]
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So, easy pace for you is 1:40. I would shoot to average 1:35 pace...that would put you on a leave interval of 1:50 (gives you 15 secs rest) for a 100. 1:50 or 55 seconds per 50 will be your base for interval work. For the 150 swim, your leave interval is 2:45...that's when you start the next portion of the set...in this case, that's when you start the 50 kick. If you were doing multiple repeats of the 150 you would begin each new 150 2:45 after you started the previous one. The 50 kick he has between 150's complicates the send offs for the following 150 so I would just take 10-15 seconds rest after the kick before starting the next 150.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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mpderksen wrote:
Week 3, workout #2: main set is 2 x ( 4 x (150 + 50kick) ). This is same as 8 x (150swim, + 50 kick), right? Or is is just 1 x 50 kick for each 4 x 150?
Track workouts were never this confusing! Lol.

my mistake! that set's too long. i transposed something from another set that should not have been in there? here's what I have for this workout:

GUPPIES => 3 cycles of: 150yd followed by a 50 kick
TARPONS => 4 cycles of: 150yd followed by a 50 kick
TUNAS => 5 cycles of: 150yd followed by a 50 kick

this would be way less yardage for the main set: 600yd for guppies, or 800 or 1000 for the tarpons or tunas. which, for guppies, would give you about 2000yd for the day.

if you did this already, well, good going!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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For those of us who don't have pool access (the office is closed and, therefore, so is the pool ), does the subsequent workouts build on this on or is it safe to skip a week (to remain in synch with the program)?
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In workout 2 (week 3), when you say 8 X 100: 1 X 100 bound, 1 X 100 unbound (x4), do you mean 8 X 100 pull, with alternating bound and unbound ankles during the pull, or do you mean 100 pull, 100 swim, 100 pull, 100 swim, etc.? I'm hoping it's the former, as I like to see how close I can get to the feel of buoyed, bound ankles if I just pull keeping my feet together without a buoy, but you've put a lot of thought into these sets, so I'd prefer to know what you meant.

Thanks.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Eileen] [ In reply to ]
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Eileen wrote:
In workout 2 (week 3), when you say 8 X 100: 1 X 100 bound, 1 X 100 unbound (x4), do you mean 8 X 100 pull, with alternating bound and unbound ankles during the pull, or do you mean 100 pull, 100 swim, 100 pull, 100 swim, etc.? I'm hoping it's the former, as I like to see how close I can get to the feel of buoyed, bound ankles if I just pull keeping my feet together without a buoy, but you've put a lot of thought into these sets, so I'd prefer to know what you meant.

Thanks.

i mean 100 ankle's bound, 100 swim, times 4. but it's not really pulling. you aren't using paddles necessarily. but if you want to use paddles that's okay.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I don't want to use paddles; I just want to propel myself across the pool without kicking, feet together, without that damned buoy. I'd call that pulling without paddles, but it may have another name. So essentially my feet would stay together for the whole 800, and I'd alternate buoy and no buoy. For me, it's good to see how close to the buoy position I can get without the foam artificially floating me. Is that consistent with the intent of the drill or have I got it messed up?
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i'll be publishing on this over the weekend. the point of drills like this, and banded ankles, is not what you might think at face value. when i have you swim these 1-arm pulls, it's not to strengthen your pull, or to concentrate on your hand's course through the water. nothing like that. my aim is to expose a disconnection between your pull, your breathing, your kicking. a very good swimmer will perform one arm drills without losing any momentum in the water. adult onset swimmers stall in the water when doing these.

what i'm trying to expose is that stall. now, look, maybe i misinterpret this, but when i read very good swimmers talk about "hip driven freestyle" as opposed to "shoulder driven freestyle" what i *think* i'm reading about hip-driven is a kicking pattern strategically employed to carry your momentum forward in between your pulls. this keeps your momentum from coming to a halt in between your pulls.

this is what i'm hoping to get to with these 1-arm pulls. remember, my interest is not in the had you're pulling with. it's with the other hand. the one near the surface, straight in front of you. if you need to scull with that hand that means you've lost your forward momentum and you're looking for some way to keep going. when you can do these drills without sculling, that means you've found a way to keep your momentum in between pulls.

when you band your ankles, again, my issue here is not to try to work on arm propulsion or any propulsion. it's to expose that leg splay you do when you kick, and you do that leg splay because you jackknife or twist at the waist when you breathe, and you splay your legs to keep your balance. when you band your ankles together this exposes that stroke flaw. you'll start fishtailing. by all means, put a pull buoy between your legs to keep your legs afloat. this isn't the inquisition. the idea is not to pull your joints out of their sockets until you confess. when you band your ankles and discover that you fishtail, you'll have learned something about how you swim. your job is simply to make a change that stops that fishtailing.

so, you have 2 "jobs" in these two drills: in the 1-arm drill your job is to perform that drill with your off hand still, immobile, and near the surface. your job with banded ankles (that drill is upcoming) is to swim without fishtailing.

if you have a hard time performing either or both of these drills the way i describe, then you should rejoice! it's like getting the labwork back and finding out that you have a particular disease. much better to know the disease instead of trudging along year after year knowing there's something very wrong with you and not knowing what to do about it. now we know your swim disease, and it makes it much easier now to solve it.


I don't fishtail. my legs just sink. If this has already been covered please point me in the right direction, I swim faster with the buoy than with kicking, so I'm guessing I have some drag. I just can't figure out how to get my legs higher in the water. I feel like I'm breaking the surface with my kick, but if I don't kick, I sink.

Thanks
Nancy
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Are most of us breathing bilaterally or unilaterally? I do bilateral because that's what I think I read somewhere once but in reality I think more frequent breathing would really help

I'm still struggling with the final set volumes so I'll try keeping up for 10 weeks, but reducing the yardage by say 50% then start another block after 10 weeks, hopefully completing in full
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i am in bermuda. i'll be swimming every day i'm here (5 days). this is my swimming vacation. and THEN i'll be swimming back home, and i'll come down and join you for a swim. do you swim masters there? or at occidental or caltech or somewhere?

Come swim with me soon, Dan! I want to hear about Bermuda!
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i don't have any quarrel with that. i just bought a TYR ankle buoy online today and i'm going to buy a couple more, just to check them out, and see what it is i like the best from among all the options.

Just curious -- did you test the Finis ankle buoy? I'm somewhat limited by shipping options (Hawaii) and the Finis is available from Amazon, but the TYR isn't.

My first try with a regular pull buoy failed miserably. I didn't have anything handy to band my ankles, and my legs were just too sore from a recent marathon to keep it there.

The last couple days I've done better, but today I really had a hard time pulling on my non-breathing side, and that part of my form was completely breaking down. Does that mean I'm fishtailing? It didn't feel like it too much, but I really hard a time with that pull and keeping my non-breathing arm straight in front of me.

On the plus side, in year 2 of my Guppy attempt, I'm doing much better with kicking. Last year, I was right around 2:00 per 50m; today I was between 1:36 and 1:43 on the 4x50 kick set. I know still very slow compared to swimmers, but I'll take it.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I finally got a band and it has made a big difference. I've been doing the skill set just holding the buoy between my ankles. Now that I have the band and the buoy I can really see that I am fishtailing. When I just had the buoy I didn't realize it, maybe because I was too focused on holding the buoy in place? So the fishtailing is caused by bending at the waist? Would pushing down (rather than back) on the extended arm also do that? Especially if it is an early drop? Thanks!
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"Kick set => 4x50yd"

2:48 for a single 50yd using only a center snorkel. No fins or board.

Anyone else this slow?

#OldMenTriHarder
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [davidwilcock] [ In reply to ]
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"Are most of us breathing bilaterally or unilaterally?"

Just started to get a little bit of the hang of bi-lateral this winter training - so trying to stick with it 100%. Left shoulder is going through some tendonitis + strengthening issues because of it, but they are starting to diminish.

#OldMenTriHarder
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Last edited by: OldMenTriHarder: Dec 30, 17 7:03
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Kula] [ In reply to ]
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Kula wrote:
Just curious -- did you test the Finis ankle buoy? I'm somewhat limited by shipping options (Hawaii) and the Finis is available from Amazon, but the TYR isn't.

i haven't tested it. but it's cheap, so try it and report back to us and tell us how it is. finis is usually pretty good at making these workout gadgets.

Kula wrote:
My first try with a regular pull buoy failed miserably. I didn't have anything handy to band my ankles, and my legs were just too sore from a recent marathon to keep it there.

see the post here from someone who said just what you said, but then got an exercise band.

Kula wrote:
The last couple days I've done better, but today I really had a hard time pulling on my non-breathing side, and that part of my form was completely breaking down. Does that mean I'm fishtailing? It didn't feel like it too much, but I really hard a time with that pull and keeping my non-breathing arm straight in front of me.

i don't know if it means you're fishtailing, but it certainly means you have a form breakdown, which is great. you're going to swim a lot faster when these form issues are solved. don't overthink it. bodies are smart. they find ways to adapt to the work all by themselves. just keep doing these drills, taking care to perform the essential elements as i've laid out. i promise you two things: you'll get better, and look back some months into the future and recognize that, yes, just doing the work will solve the problem; and that as you master these drills they will translate to faster swimming.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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