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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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OK, I did four sessions last week (repeating session 1 in a slightly modified format).

The one arm drills are a challenge. I understand the focus is supposed to be on the non-pulling arm. it's hard to focus, though, when struggling to breath (see above). But, persevere I did.

Pull buoys are awesome. My 50y times dropped eight seconds with a buoy. For longer intervals, the drop is more dramatic (e.g. 40+ seconds for 200y). This just tells me something I already now - my legs are sinking.

Snorkels are another challenge. I find I am out of air at the end of each 25y lap. Again, I spend so much time focusing on getting air that the purpose of the drill is lost.

Kicking is an even larger challenge. At 20y (and after a over a minute of intense kicking), my legs are exhausted and hurting from the "muscle burn" and I stall. Two lengths is the limit.

Since you've promised a "new man", I'll continue to put up with the frustration.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Week 1 is over - Whew! Those 4x300's were by far the toughest of the 5 sessions.

For Week 2; what if you don't have a band / pool buoy combo? Is there another option?

Thanks again for putting this out there - Good times!
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Mike J] [ In reply to ]
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Most pools have spare buoys or you can order one from swimoutlet.com...they're pretty cheap. For the band you can cut up an old inner tube and tie a knot in it.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i don't have any quarrel with that. i just bought a TYR ankle buoy online today and i'm going to buy a couple more, just to check them out, and see what it is i like the best from among all the options.

Dan, I have an suggestion to try on the guppy challenge. I tried it today and it worked really really really well for preventing "splay". First take the three hole band and put the outside hole just below each kneecap level. Swim, kick as much as you want with that "clamp" on your splay. Ok, do 4x100 like that. Next step, remove outer hole from left leg, and now put middle hole on left leg. Now your knees will essentially be touching each other. Now do 4x100 with the "two hole" band....knees very close together, kick as hard and as wide as you want, cause you ain't gonna be playing at all.

OK after this is done. Next step is remove all band, but try to simulate what you just did with '2 hole band" and do another 2x100m. Hopefully it feels better....but just as you think you are narrow, put the 2 hole band config back on for 2x100m more and suddenly you will see again that your legs were wider and more splayed than you thought....Rinse repeat keep doing it. Do entire days with the 2 hole config if you want.

What do you say?
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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One more thing....if there is a touch of air in your tube and it gives a bit of floatation assist, it won't be the end of the world to get in a bit of a downhill swimming body position....just don't let your stomach sag and hips drop...suck it in!
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Why are you out of air when you use the snorkel? It does take a bit of an adjustment (breathing in and out through the device...sometimes I breathe out through my nose).

Yeh, you figured out a big issue...body position. Working on your kick will help. A properly timed 2 beat kick will keep your legs up and help rotation.

Keep the kick fairly narrow, point your toes as much as possible and try to relax the ankles. Kicking with fins will help your ankle flexibility. I'm not a great kicker but it's improving...right now I'm kicking 25 yards comfortably in 36 seconds...all out time is high 20's. It's sad since I can kick a 50 with fins in 40 seconds without killing myself.

One arm drills..you might want to use fins to help here.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Mike J] [ In reply to ]
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Mike J wrote:
what if you don't have a band / pool buoy combo? Is there another option?

if you look at one of the videos i linked to (maybe in week-2?), it's of a swimmer just grabbing the buoy with his ankles. if you can do that, good on ya. no band needed. but here are some other thoughts:

1. it's an exercise band that's needed, not a swim exercise band. these are ubiquitous.
2. a blown tube works. MTB works better. but anything works. cut the valve out of it.
3. an inflated wheelbarrow tube works as BOTH the flotation device and the band (you put your feet through it). but this is tricky, because both feet have to fit, but not fit too easy, through the hole. unless the hole is big enough that you can twist the tube before putting your other foot in.

the only imperatives here are:

1. your feet must stay together, next to each other.
2. your ankles most be floated.

anything that solves those two points works.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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HandHeartCrown wrote:
Kicking is an even larger challenge

here's the thing about swimming. your body will find a way. trust that your body will find a way. if you keep doing it, you'll get it. it'll take awhile, but, here's the thing: if it was easy, everyone would be able to do it. the fact that you're sweating it out, making it work, going through the motions, enduring the time spent, investing the time spent, is the reward in the end. you're doing what others refuse to do, fail at, give up at, and if you push through until you get it then your reward is a skillset others don't have.

now, look, when i kick 50s, if i can kick them repeating on the 2 minutes then i'm kicking (for me) pretty good. my neighbor and training partner, monty, he can kick 50s on the minute. so, if we do a kick set, i get in 200 yards when he gets in 400 yards. so, i've kicked from here to the moon and back if you take all my kick sets and place them back to back, and that's as fast as i've ever gotten. but that's enough! that's enough to do damage!

what you ought to do, if you just... can't... get... across the pool, is start with zoomers. here is ROKA's holiday sale page. short fins for $21. just, no buying the long fins! they need to be the short fins.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [D.O.] [ In reply to ]
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D.O. wrote:
So, our "leave " is at our discretion depending on how much rest we want/need?

in most of the sets so far i've indicated the amount of rest i want. so, your leave would be whatever you need to swim the distance in X time with (say) 10sec rest. but, yes, it's to your discretion.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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mpderksen wrote:

Ready for week 2. Is there a downside to doing more than 300 yards of the drill each day? Or just stick to the plan? I assume no paddles here?

Beauty idea. I had a hell of a time keeping the buoy between my ankles by the 3rd interval.

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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 "my aim is to expose a disconnection between your pull, your breathing, your kicking. a very good swimmer will perform one arm drills without losing any momentum in the water. adult onset swimmers stall in the water when doing these."

Mission accomplished. Tried the first two workouts. I stalled. I sank. Its difficult to breath to either side when I'm not using the opposite arm at the same time as I roll to get a breath. Not surprised that this is a kicking problem. Something I just haven't worked on.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

looks like you got 'er sorted. there is no downside to doing more drill yards that i can think of. go forth!

i'm interested to continue to know from you all what you find easy/hard about each drill. and if you make progress and what progress you make.

6 x 50 w/u: all 43-46 seconds. Not working hard. Why are they so much faster when I'm not trying???

3 x 100 1-arm drill: 1:47-1:49 each. Not much slower than my 200yd pace!?!?! I feel that when I breathe on my non-dominant side, my head rises up more, while on my dominant side, I just turn to the side directly. I think, on the offside, I dig deeper on the pull for some reason?

3 x 100 with buoy/band: 1:40 each. My terrible flip-turns are simply a train wreck now... I tried breathing left for 25, right for 25 etc. I was able to get a few inches along the lane line and smoothly track with it. I would swear there's very little fishtailing going on. How are these faster with no kicking? I'm not using paddles, and I'm not pulling hard or racing. In fact, I was thinking about letting my head lead, and body position the whole time.

8 x 200 main set: 3:26-3:30 each (1:43-1:45 pace). I tried to keep my kick very small, and even touch my big toes to make sure I was staying tight. I wanted to feel the same body position as when i had the buoy.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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mpderksen wrote:
Slowman wrote:


looks like you got 'er sorted. there is no downside to doing more drill yards that i can think of. go forth!

i'm interested to continue to know from you all what you find easy/hard about each drill. and if you make progress and what progress you make.

in line:

6 x 50 w/u: all 43-46 seconds. Not working hard. Why are they so much faster when I'm not trying??? because you're fresh.

3 x 100 1-arm drill: 1:47-1:49 each. Not much slower than my 200yd pace!?!?! I feel that when I breathe on my non-dominant side, my head rises up more, while on my dominant side, I just turn to the side directly. I think, on the offside, I dig deeper on the pull for some reason? adult onset swimmers carry with them the problems associated with breathing. these problems are hell to get rid of and they pervade every part of your stroke, from your fingertips to your toes. overreach, splaying legs, everting feet, head too high, this is all breathing related. these are some of the problems these drills are designed to fix. trust the system.

3 x 100 with buoy/band: 1:40 each. My terrible flip-turns are simply a train wreck now... I tried breathing left for 25, right for 25 etc. I was able to get a few inches along the lane line and smoothly track with it. I would swear there's very little fishtailing going on. How are these faster with no kicking? I'm not using paddles, and I'm not pulling hard or racing. In fact, I was thinking about letting my head lead, and body position the whole time. well, two things. first, your legs are floated. they're on the surface. so, pretty likely they're sinking without the buoy. second, you're forced to swim correctly. so, really, you're forced to swim correctly in two planes: up/down and side to side. if you can manage to swim this same way, this position, this movement, without the buoy, you just made a pretty big gain it seems to me.

8 x 200 main set: 3:26-3:30 each (1:43-1:45 pace). I tried to keep my kick very small, and even touch my big toes to make sure I was staying tight. I wanted to feel the same body position as when i had the buoy. good. that's the thing you want.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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mpderksen wrote:
Slowman wrote:


looks like you got 'er sorted. there is no downside to doing more drill yards that i can think of. go forth!

i'm interested to continue to know from you all what you find easy/hard about each drill. and if you make progress and what progress you make.


6 x 50 w/u: all 43-46 seconds. Not working hard. Why are they so much faster when I'm not trying???

3 x 100 1-arm drill: 1:47-1:49 each. Not much slower than my 200yd pace!?!?! I feel that when I breathe on my non-dominant side, my head rises up more, while on my dominant side, I just turn to the side directly. I think, on the offside, I dig deeper on the pull for some reason?

3 x 100 with buoy/band: 1:40 each. My terrible flip-turns are simply a train wreck now... I tried breathing left for 25, right for 25 etc. I was able to get a few inches along the lane line and smoothly track with it. I would swear there's very little fishtailing going on. How are these faster with no kicking? I'm not using paddles, and I'm not pulling hard or racing. In fact, I was thinking about letting my head lead, and body position the whole time.

8 x 200 main set: 3:26-3:30 each (1:43-1:45 pace). I tried to keep my kick very small, and even touch my big toes to make sure I was staying tight. I wanted to feel the same body position as when i had the buoy.

You and I are members of the same club, although your faster than I am. (I'd be ecstatic to swim at your paces). My "slow and easy warm ups" are between 60 and 65 seconds and are the fastest of the day.

On the one-arm drill, my left side (which I never use otherwise) is actually less difficult than my right side. In both cases, though, I am lifting my head to breath and usually swallowing a mouthful of the pool. And I need fins otherwise I'll stall within half a lap.

My buoy and band averaged 2:00, about 5-10 seconds faster. What I did notice is that I felt like I was driving my 1984 Mazda RX7 in the middle of a New England snow storm (it was a great car on the dry roads - on the snow, it fishtailed like crazy). Question to Dan: How do I stop the fishtailing?

You 200's are about a minute faster than mine.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
HandHeartCrown wrote:
Kicking is an even larger challenge


here's the thing about swimming. your body will find a way. trust that your body will find a way. if you keep doing it, you'll get it. it'll take awhile, but, here's the thing: if it was easy, everyone would be able to do it. the fact that you're sweating it out, making it work, going through the motions, enduring the time spent, investing the time spent, is the reward in the end. you're doing what others refuse to do, fail at, give up at, and if you push through until you get it then your reward is a skillset others don't have.

now, look, when i kick 50s, if i can kick them repeating on the 2 minutes then i'm kicking (for me) pretty good. my neighbor and training partner, monty, he can kick 50s on the minute. so, if we do a kick set, i get in 200 yards when he gets in 400 yards. so, i've kicked from here to the moon and back if you take all my kick sets and place them back to back, and that's as fast as i've ever gotten. but that's enough! that's enough to do damage!

what you ought to do, if you just... can't... get... across the pool, is start with zoomers. here is ROKA's holiday sale page. short fins for $21. just, no buying the long fins! they need to be the short fins.

I have an old pair of zoomers in the closet. I think. I'll give them a try. I know that longer fins reek havoc on my aging knees when I kick for more than 50 yards.

BTW: You might want to let Emilio know that I could not find his swim sleeves through any of the main menus on his web site. I expected them to be in the Swim area but no luck. They don't appear on a search, either. Your hot-link works, though. I was going to order a pair last week when I bought some of his new cold weather tops (great items for cold weather running :-)).
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So am I the only person doing this that’s slower with a pull buoy? (Not with paddles but that’s not what’s been called for)
I take my kick out and drop from an easy 55/50 to 57-58 sec/50 with the buoy. I’m not quite as fast as Monty kicking- was coming in around 1:10/50 on Saturday kicks between the 200/150/100 set but definitely faster than most. I noticed during the 200s today that feet brush and my heels break the surface with a light kick so I don’t splay. the pull buoy between the ankles today just frustrated me because it changed my body position to something worse than my baseline.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [xterratri] [ In reply to ]
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That's not unusual if you have a good kick and body position.

Your kick speed is probably better than most AOS swimmers. You and I would still have to get a little faster if we wanted to kick 50's on 1:10 as my masters coach likes to make us do every once in a while ( I reach for the fins when she does that ).

Are you swimming SCY or SCM? If it's SCY, your 50's pace ( to me ) doesn't line up with your kicking ability.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Putting a buoy between your legs is a tool that shows you what GOOD feels like in the vertical plane:

Holy Smoking Swimming fins - felt like you could almost keep up with Michael Phelps. Could swim all day like this. But is probably exposing the ongoing struggle with sinking legs.

#OldMenTriHarder
#SwimBikeRunLikeABadger
#SwimBikeRunLikeAngels
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [OldMenTriHarder] [ In reply to ]
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OldMenTriHarder wrote:
Quote:
Putting a buoy between your legs is a tool that shows you what GOOD feels like in the vertical plane:


Holy Smoking Swimming fins - felt like you could almost keep up with Michael Phelps. Could swim all day like this. But is probably exposing the ongoing struggle with sinking legs.

can i just tell you: this is not a hard problem to fix. but it does take some commitment and attention to the issue. a couple of things that might be helpful:

1. make bubbles when you kick. funny how often just saying that works. but one thing to look out for: don't make bubble just by bending your knees. it's not just your feet that need to be near the surface, but your knees.

2. what you're doing from the waist up, how you're breathing, what you do while you're breathing, how high your forehead is in the water when you're swimming, determines in large part how much your legs are sinking. the thing to take from this drill is what legs on the surface FEEL like. then, emulate this. try to emulate it. keep working until you get it. know that until you get it you've got all that speed sitting there, ready to access. just, if your head is up, your feet will sink. get everything from your chest forward down, down down. swim downhill. that'll raise your legs.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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SCY- those are easy 50s for warm up as described in workout. Would likely be low to mid 40s if I was extending effort. Frankly kick wasn’t all out hard either.

For me this challenge is about fitness or complete lack there of. Participating in challenge motivates me to get in water when it’s otherwise easier to make excuses. Considering that my routine is to just swim a few times before my PT test twice a year, I’d actually like to get back in shape. Passing for the 800 yard swim is 23:30 and I swam 15:13 last October. Would like to swim closer to 13 this spring. Doesn’t matter, it’s pass/fail unlike the run which I can’t do anymore but matter of pride to exceed passing by 10 minutes. Considering doing some aquabikes this upcoming year too and maybe trying to hobble sprint distance
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So I’m in my second year at this.

In my first year I think I improved at improving my “Hull” in the “horizontal” plane - I don’t fishtail too much (at least when I’m concentrating)

This year.... vertical plane. I know I am terrible at using my legs as an anchor.......

I think my problem is not engaging my core - I feel that it’s my hips that are at the wrong angle and everything goes downhill (literally) from there

Does this seem right?

If so are there any good trigger movements I can use?

I am a veteran of the pill bouy at the ankles (to solve fishtail) - but I’m getting less benefits in the vertical plane - I wonder if that again is because whilst it lifts my toes it doesn’t deal wth the hips

Thoughts?
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [plumber250] [ In reply to ]
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A few things that seem to help me.

1. More kicking- I seem to have better body position after a kick set..I guess because I'm getting my core activated with the kick set.

2. No raising of the head when turning to breathe...raising head will tend to drop your back half.

3. A semi catch-up style stroke will help keep the fore/aft weight distribution in better balance. If you're halfway through your pull before the recovering arm gets past your ear, you've concentrated your weight in the middle/back portion of your body.

4. Practice swimming 25's with a band around your ankles...you'll really have to activate your glutes/lower back and employ #3 above to make this work.
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Since you’re asking for info on what’s easy and what’s hard, here you go:
  1. 1-arm drills: I’ve worked on these since last year’s GC, and I’ve gotten a lot better. Dominant side feels good, through there is still some minor surging/ sinking (no hand sculling). Non-dominant side (pulling and breathing on the left, right arm extended) is less good: there’s more sinking, and I drift to the right. Still no sculling, but more of a struggle.
  2. New this year, I’m swimming with a center snorkel on every other drill (ok, I got it over the weekend, so 2 swims now). The 1-arm drills are MUCH easier with it, and much more balanced. Based on the above, my diagnosis is that I need to work on my left-side breathing. Fyi, I was a right side only breather until last year; now I’m a pretty consistent right 25, left 25, and sometimes bilateral. The left finally started to feel pretty good this summer/fall, but this drill seems to reveal that it’s still not quite there.
  3. Pull buoy at the ankles. Ok, so last year I always just did these with a pull buoy between the thighs. Fishtailing didn’t seem to be a problem, and the wheelbarrow tube/tied bike tube seemed too much faff to fit in a too-small pool locker and to use in a too-crowded pool. But this year, I’m trying these with the pull buoy at the ankles (no strap). I usually like pull buoy sets (faster by approx. 10s/100m), but at the ankles, these are no fun: I still don’t feel like I’m fishtailing, but the vertical plane seems much more difficult. I feel like I’m bent backwards, breaths to both sides end up in the water, and my pull is sloppier. Diagnosis? Not enough core strength? Too much flotation at the feet ?
  4. During the main set swims, I try to keep my kick light and tight, which makes the yardage feel very doable (I’m swimming tarpon yards, which is an upgrade this year). I’m not faster yet, but I’m much more comfortable with the workout and in the water. The speed will come?


Two questions if I could:
  1. I can’t help but assume that my kick needs work. It’s hard to explain, because I don’t really understand what my feet are doing. It’s steady and consistent during a kick set, but once I add in the arms, it changes. I can’t for the life of me count it (I’ve tried and failed), and I can’t say whether or how it’s coordinated with my arms (I’ve tried and failed at that too). If I were to guess, I’d say 4-beat. There are flutters, etc in there, which make it hard to count -- I assume they're there to correct for coordination issues, which is an issue. While swimming, I try to keep my kick light so I don't wear myself out, and so it's not a big deal. But the 1-arm drill seems to be shining a light here though. Agreed? Any drills coming?
  2. I expected to swim faster with the center snorkel. Instead I swim quite a bit slower (15s/100y). I’m kicking off the wall much softer to keep the snorkel from going wonky, and I thought that was the reason, but I also feel like I lose leverage. Like maybe I’m doing less body roll with it on and therefore not opening up the leverage on my pulling arm? Does that make sense? Is that wrong?

Thanks for the challenge. Great motivation to keep coming back to the pool!
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [drat_bklyn] [ In reply to ]
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your legs are sinking, it seems like. when you don't use a buoy. i believe you said you feel like you're arching your bike? with a buoy?

it's mostly a body position thing, not a core strength thing. yes, a good core is good for swimmers. but not a massively good core. that's not needed. your legs sink because you've got breathing and head issues, positional issues.

turn your head to the side and back when you breathe. like you're tucking your chin. and, the water should be hitting the top of your head, not your forehead.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge Begins! Q&A Thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So, I just recieved the Finis Center Snorkel and Finis Axis Buoy. Both are working well and exposing improvement opportunities, however; when I flip turn I can't seem to get the hang of clearing my snorkel of water. Any suggestions?
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