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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm so glad someone is talking about this. I will say I took over a local race as the RD a couple years ago and one thing I wanted to do was do something affordable for this reason. To be honest, I don't think people mind paying. We did not get any more athletes due to the cheaper price and we offered a higher cost of race day registration (obviously) and they didn't seem to care they were paying $100 for race day registration for a sprint race. ($50 was the standard payment) We did that so people would sign up early. Not one person complained about it. Personally, I choose races due to the price. Haven't done IM since 2010 due to price. That one is getting out of hand. Its like saving up to go on a family vacation. Also, some local races I see they have over 20 sponsors trying to charge me over $80 for a sprint race. That's crazy. This needs to be addressed.And I think it is being addressed as local races keep dropping in popularity. I do not think the extra fees are that bad as long as it's the one-day USAT. Maybe a small >$5 fee for website but that's it. The greedy RD or company that is in it for the $$ and not the fun is the problem.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Sasquatch] [ In reply to ]
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i gave you one comparison earlier up in this thread. a pretty hefty fee, at the top of the price scale, for an oly distance race in 1985 was the bud lite tri series fee of $65. that's $145. today. so, i think our forum readers have it about right. the largest single category of readers feel that $100-$125 is the right price for a well-run event of this length, esp considering the reg and insurance fees tacked onto that.

the second largest slice of readers are saying $70 to $95 and i think that's also reasonable in many parts of the country where costs of living are lower.

the old USTS races were really well produced. they had prize purses, traveling pros, race expos. they were ahead of their time. but that's the range. i think an average price in today's dollars of $110 to $145 for a really well run race, that being the price all in (reg fee + insurance) is about commensurate with what the market charged throughout triathlon's history.

there should also be oly races that cost $65 or $75, but i don't expect these to be top-flite operations (more grass roots).

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Having to register 9 months in advance( or even 12 months to get the HITS super discount) is tough as we get older and are not sure what kind of condition our bodies are going to be in one year from now.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Diabolo wrote:
Hi Dan,

Yes, it has for me to a point. I am still swimming, biking and running every week, but not racing anymore and I think a big part of that is the cost of races. And I would consider our household salary to be 'decent' (way above average for the population).

Cheers,
Laurent

+1

training the same as ever, but one race a year at best, can't justify the cost of racing given family financial obligations.
It's not only tri, paid $45 for a 5k run recently, which was my only race for this year.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"I am still swimming, biking and running every week, but not racing anymore and I think a big part of that is the cost of races."

that's interesting. the cost of equipment is high, the cost of racing is relatively low. is it because racing is a sunk cost, disposable, intangible, whereas if you buy a bike you still have it after every use? rather than a single-use purchase?

that argues for people buying music but not going to concerts: renewable resource versus one-time use.

I wanted to take the family to a Jack Johnson concert at Red Rocks, but even if the tickets hadn't sold out in ten minutes, it would have cost nearly $1000. So yes, I only buy music, don't go to concerts anymore either.. except for (cheap) local bands that I like to support.

equipment is a sunk cost. I can still enjoy using the equipment without incurring further costs by paying race fees. Building my Cervelo ten years ago from a frame and ebay parts cost less than $600.

These two graphs, plus the rapidly increasing cost of living (college, healthcare, housing, race fees also in here) explain why I no longer have disposable income.



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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [endosch2] [ In reply to ]
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endosch2 wrote:
I am trying to do research on millenials and figure out "what do they do" there are a lot of answers, lots of different personas.

here's the answer to what millenials do:






"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Triathlon is a very different sport that when I started.
My 1st tri was in 1987- I was a good runner who swam and rode a bit that summer. That propelled me to a 5th overall in my 1st triathlon. Racine 1987.
I rode a Schwinn Super Sport that I took from my older brother. Drop bars, Suntour cyclone, stock wheels.
In 1988 I did a bunch of races. Even then, I only upgrade to a decent steel road bike- much less than 2k. I put Profile aero bars on it- I had a set of lower spoke count tubulars with bladed spokes, but they were ghetto- broke spokes almost every race and beat up my bike with the broken spokes- so I often rode my training wheels.
It was cheap enough to race where I sometimes even raced twice per weekend- entry fee cost was not a factor (and I was a broke post-college student).
Really only the top pros had better gear than me. But it was usually because they were sponsored by a shop that was trying to sell the exact same gear. I do recall that the fastest guys were showing up with Hed Discs, and Roval front wheels- but nothing crazier than that. At that time 2k would get you the fastest bike and wheel setup available.

Now you have to enter races in advance, entry fees are many hundreds of dollars, bikes can go 10-15k- and they are not only for fast sponsored riders.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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Travis R wrote:

Probably not the best analogy, but I think we need to talk in terms of sticker price versus cost of ownership. It's kind of like how car dealers always want to talk about the monthly payment rather than the total cost of ownership. That $300 per month lease payment sounds palatable, until you do the actual math and realize how much it will cost over the life of the lease. And you still don't own the car. But, hey, it's "only" $300 a month. Or how the banks are so willing to pre-approve you for a house you can't afford. The new home buyer is all excited because they can get a $300,000 house with no closing costs and nothing down. Yeah, but do the math on that 30 year mortgage at high interest, add in mortgage insurance, and realize that the monthly payment is more than you can actually afford and you'll be owned by your house before you own it.

Maybe that's the difference between the groups I've described above. There are the newbies, buying that car or house without realizing what it will cost them in the long term, versus the folks that already have learned everything the hard way, refinanced the mortgage or downsized, and are now settled into a more sustainable pattern.

And don't even get me started on what an overuse injury will cost.


This!
Now factor in you buy a disk-brake frame where you have to buy wheel sets on top (no more hand-downs or Craigslist near term). The original thread was going of that premise.....

And if you are a nebie and want new equipment, where do you get a $2.5K start-up package that fits you if you do not live close to those mega retailers like Nytro etc....? Fly there?

If you are on shoestring budget (handed down equipment), you won't race WTC or buy a disc-brake Tri-bike.
Hence, cost is still prohibitive in gaining entry to "bragging rights" social media hero status.

For some of us Oldtimers, who think about retirement and family, many of my friends have had to make a choice:
Buy a new (road) bike that they can use any weekend OR selfishly race a couple WTC races..... easy choice, if you are smart.

I see a benefit having a new bike that get's me out there training and experiencing new things.

Would I want to do another cookie-cutter catered IM event? Not really, even if it were in China.
Last edited by: windschatten: Dec 8, 16 22:48
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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No offense, and as I am closer to your age then some I got to tell you:

Unless you live in an enclave, this is no where near where/how Triathlon is positioned in major markets nowadays.

Plenty of newcomers will aim for a full brand name Ironman race asap, as this is the only one you can get some creed on your resume = farcebook. Largely thanks to all the marketing hype about long course racing being the only form of 'real' Triathlon.

I have a couple of 20-somethings in my training group that have done/are training for a WTC event only....and those who have finished, barely stick out on social media.
These are excellent athletes, some collegiate national level. They have the drive, still hard time to keep them motivated to stay in the sport that is so expensive to compete in (if you do not have a trust fund) and that is loosing it's 'uniqueness' rapidly.

So it is one and done once posted on Facebook, just like your bungee jump when you were 12.



HuffNPuff wrote:


The anti-WTC arguments completely miss the point at why total participation is declining. Very few people enter the sport with an ironman as their goal or as their first triathlon. They most likely enter a sprint triathlon. Some will then race sprints and Olympics, move up to Ironman 70.3 and then an Ironman and quit. I know several of them. Others will enter the sport, and do local races only for a number of years and then quit the sport. I know a lot more of these people than the former. The sheer difficulty of the sport, and the constant self-imposed pressure to train eventually wears them out and they decide they would rather sleep in. There has always been a steady flow of people into and out of the sport. And the drain that we are experiencing is not the outflow as much as it is a reduction of the inflow. Ten years ago, triathlon was the in-sport to do. Everyone was flocking to it and newbies vastly exceeded the number leaving the sport. The swim was just as much a barrier 10 years ago. The equipment costs were just as daunting. And race entry fees on an inflation adjusted basis weren't much different either (with the exception of USAT/active fees which have vastly outstripped CPI). This all suggests that the problem is that people have moved on to other sports or activities. The internecine warfare regarding WTC and the rest of the sport is as irrelevant as it is counterproductive to learning why fewer people are no longer interested in entering their first sprint triathlon...the gateway to the sport.
Last edited by: windschatten: Dec 8, 16 23:09
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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No offense taken. I only know a few 20 something triathletes; and facebook is not their motivation; but I don't doubt that it is for others. But then again, I never bungee jumped either, so what do I know!. I am training for IM#11 now and my motivating factors are probably much different than most folks would imagine. I thought triathlon was very expensive when I entered a couple in 1980, but I'm very fortunate that is no longer a barrier. I certainly agree that long course tri is losing prestige and 'uniqueness', but that doesn't concern me since it isn't the reason I train and compete.

windschatten wrote:
No offense, and as I am closer to your age then some I got to tell you:

Unless you live in an enclave, this is no where near where/how Triathlon is positioned in major markets nowadays.

Plenty of newcomers will aim for a full brand name Ironman race asap, as this is the only one you can get some creed on your resume = farcebook. Largely thanks to all the marketing hype about long course racing being the only form of 'real' Triathlon.

I have a couple of 20-somethings in my training group that have done/are training for a WTC event only....and those who have finished, barely stick out on social media.
These are excellent athletes, some collegiate national level. They have the drive, still hard time to keep them motivated to stay in the sport that is so expensive to compete in (if you do not have a trust fund) and that is loosing it's 'uniqueness' rapidly.

So it is one and done once posted on Facebook, just like your bungee jump when you were 12.


HuffNPuff wrote:


The anti-WTC arguments completely miss the point at why total participation is declining. Very few people enter the sport with an ironman as their goal or as their first triathlon. They most likely enter a sprint triathlon. Some will then race sprints and Olympics, move up to Ironman 70.3 and then an Ironman and quit. I know several of them. Others will enter the sport, and do local races only for a number of years and then quit the sport. I know a lot more of these people than the former. The sheer difficulty of the sport, and the constant self-imposed pressure to train eventually wears them out and they decide they would rather sleep in. There has always been a steady flow of people into and out of the sport. And the drain that we are experiencing is not the outflow as much as it is a reduction of the inflow. Ten years ago, triathlon was the in-sport to do. Everyone was flocking to it and newbies vastly exceeded the number leaving the sport. The swim was just as much a barrier 10 years ago. The equipment costs were just as daunting. And race entry fees on an inflation adjusted basis weren't much different either (with the exception of USAT/active fees which have vastly outstripped CPI). This all suggests that the problem is that people have moved on to other sports or activities. The internecine warfare regarding WTC and the rest of the sport is as irrelevant as it is counterproductive to learning why fewer people are no longer interested in entering their first sprint triathlon...the gateway to the sport.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [gphin305] [ In reply to ]
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gphin305 wrote:
Your points may be valid but they seem to focus on long course racing? Does WTC really have any effect on sprint and oly participation....and getting new people into the sport....or more participation from people currently only doing 2-3 events per year?

i agree with the point that WTC has been buying up some races to force others out to monopolize on it, but i agree with this point more. for many triathletes, a WTC race is a bucket list or once per year tops event. i've seen sprints and olympic distance races disappear. and the ones here, are a lot more than the $75 many talk about. my local olympic race is $180 (stamford, ct). Rev3 does the quassy race for as much as $40 cheaper an hour away and its on better roads, better run, etc. i did a sprint last year and probably walked 1/2 of the swim because the tide was low. terrible planning. i did an olympic 2 years ago that had minimal volunteers and only a few police on site. intersections were dangerous.

part of the problem is our own head. we think we need to upgrade to the newest and best all the time. but face it, for BOP'ers, what good is spending $4000+ on a tri bike going to do? better off getting a 2nd hand one for under $1000. if you think that $4000+ bike is going to knock substantial time off your race, train harder. that will work better.

but i also agree with all the added crap at the end of the registration. its like Ticketmaster for a concert or a sporting event. somehow you pay $150 for a $100 ticket. many of us waste money on a USAT membership. only sensible if you race 4 times. active is a waste.

refund policies. i get it, races dont want people backing out last minute and not having enough to cover costs, but there has to be a happy medium. transfer..... Rev3 allowed me to transfer no problem when i had a last minute medical issue. it was actually challenge at the time, but the same people. cost me $25, which was fair. now ironman wont let me change races. i signed up for IMAC 70.3 but for personal reasons, decided a few weeks later that IM Maine is better for me. but Ironman wont let me switch and i'm not happy about it. i'm actually at a point where im not even looking forward to the race. i get it, its my fault, but let me out of it and keep a small administrative fee. not like they ordered my medal, shirt or cap yet. i've heard people change from different races before but they wont let me here.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Gskalt] [ In reply to ]
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Gskalt wrote:

refund policies. i get it, races dont want people backing out last minute and not having enough to cover costs, but there has to be a happy medium. transfer..... Rev3 allowed me to transfer no problem when i had a last minute medical issue. it was actually challenge at the time, but the same people. cost me $25, which was fair. now ironman wont let me change races. i signed up for IMAC 70.3 but for personal reasons, decided a few weeks later that IM Maine is better for me. but Ironman wont let me switch and i'm not happy about it. i'm actually at a point where im not even looking forward to the race. i get it, its my fault, but let me out of it and keep a small administrative fee. not like they ordered my medal, shirt or cap yet. i've heard people change from different races before but they wont let me here.

I had a similar issue pop up last year. I was severely injured in a race, about a month before my A race. My doctors told me I couldn't ride, let alone compete, for a year. My A race had a no-transfer, no-refund policy. I reached out to the race director to see if she would let me defer to next (this) year due to my injury. To my surprise, she said yes, and I raced it this year with no problem.

Having the policy in place is good business. Taking issues up on a case by case basis, as the race director did for me, is being a good person. And, it's also good business. The race is TriWaco, and I would recommend it to anyone. Yes, it's a well done race, but they treated me as a person first. Really meant a lot to me.

Attacking this day with enthusiasm unknown to mankind.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [LundyLund] [ In reply to ]
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LundyLund wrote:
Gskalt wrote:


refund policies. i get it, races dont want people backing out last minute and not having enough to cover costs, but there has to be a happy medium. transfer..... Rev3 allowed me to transfer no problem when i had a last minute medical issue. it was actually challenge at the time, but the same people. cost me $25, which was fair. now ironman wont let me change races. i signed up for IMAC 70.3 but for personal reasons, decided a few weeks later that IM Maine is better for me. but Ironman wont let me switch and i'm not happy about it. i'm actually at a point where im not even looking forward to the race. i get it, its my fault, but let me out of it and keep a small administrative fee. not like they ordered my medal, shirt or cap yet. i've heard people change from different races before but they wont let me here.


I had a similar issue pop up last year. I was severely injured in a race, about a month before my A race. My doctors told me I couldn't ride, let alone compete, for a year. My A race had a no-transfer, no-refund policy. I reached out to the race director to see if she would let me defer to next (this) year due to my injury. To my surprise, she said yes, and I raced it this year with no problem.

Having the policy in place is good business. Taking issues up on a case by case basis, as the race director did for me, is being a good person. And, it's also good business. The race is TriWaco, and I would recommend it to anyone. Yes, it's a well done race, but they treated me as a person first. Really meant a lot to me.

good to know. i should state the i did not have the insurance policy for the Rev3 race but they allowed it anyway. that's good business. glad to hear TriWaco is cool about it. i've had good experiences with local race directors for me. one local sprint, they screwed up the timing mats, so the run times didnt record... they gave everyone a $25 voucher off the next year's race. IMAC70.3 race director has reached out to me after i got upset about wanting to pull out. i appreciate his time, and how he runs the race under the IM umbrella, but as much as he tells me to the contrary, atlantic city is still a dump and i know i should have thought that through better. it was the only 70.3 race that worked for me timing wish. turns out that the Rev3 Maine one does work out, and when IM picked it up, i got excited to switch, but they wont. when i reached out to them about the lodging, my concerns were that lodging in a clean and safe area were far too expensive, i was told to "suck it up, its one night" and "get a better attitude". i did not think that to be an appropriate response. what's funny is that he continued to try and sell me on atlantic city being a good family venue, but with the level of seedy environment from drugs to prostitution, i dont want my family there. cant sell this as a destination race. my point is, how much is Ironman going to lose if they just applied my registration from one to the other? in the meantime, they get a very happy customer who will say "thank you" a million times over.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [georged] [ In reply to ]
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"I've lived in Indonesia and East Timor. Both have an upper class that can afford to buy new Jeeps and Toyotas, and who are now aspiring to challenge themselves and spend money on recreation."


Well that's nice that Indonesia and many other 3rd world countries have a small elitist upper class that can afford to do triathlon, but when you consider that 50.6% of the population of Indonesia lives under $2 USD per day, it would suggest that the majority could not afford a $15 K bicycle, let alone an entry fee. Proves my point exactly about the sport of running being the great world wide equalizer whereas most people on the planet have no chance of ever doing a triathlon due to the cost..

http://www.indonesia-investments.com/...tors/poverty/item301?
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [eggplantOG] [ In reply to ]
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I stopped cold turkey...I realized how much time and money I didn't have anymore, and my house was in shambles since I never did the chores to fix things. The time I lost in my business due to trips, and training became painfully obvious something had to give.

Chasing the high that used to be great...but what used to be a rush became a disappointment to why I spent all that time and money to get a slower race time, or the same time as last year.

So, it's really my own addiction, and expectations that caused the failure.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [metafizx] [ In reply to ]
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"I stopped cold turkey.."

Same here. I was doing a race and was asking myself "why are you still doing this". I had a lot of fun with it over the years, but the buzz was gone and I didn't feel buying another new bike would recharge my batteries. It was time to move on. Nobody does these things forever.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
"I stopped cold turkey.."

Same here. I was doing a race and was asking myself "why are you still doing this". I had a lot of fun with it over the years, but the buzz was gone and I didn't feel buying another new bike would recharge my batteries. It was time to move on. Nobody does these things forever.

Just curious...what do you do now? And since you stopped, why are you still on ST?
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I still swim and bike regularly. Run a little bit. X-country ski a lot in winter. But don't race. Why am I here? Are you saying if you're not racing any more you're not allowed to be? I'm usually not here nowadays, but lots of posters here aren't currently racing if you haven't noticed.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
No offense taken. I only know a few 20 something triathletes; and facebook is not their motivation; but I don't doubt that it is for others.

Am I the only millennial on ST?

I've reserved my thoughts on this thread thus far, but has anybody seen the Major League Triathlon movement?

I would think that would be far more attractive to my age and younger. Don't get me wrong, IM is cool and all, but even Olympic triathlons are lame to watch on tv, let alone a 8+ hour race.

I think most track/field type events are relatively obscure to most people my age. Hate it or love it, if anything, IM has brought some bit of recognition to the sport. I wouldn't have known about it if it weren't for the brand.

Ask any kid 18-30 what sports are in a biathlon or pentathlon and see what kind of answers you get.

just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Dan,

At one point I was an avid triathlete and raced every opportunity that I got... but that was six years ago before I had college debt (I started after my degree when I was 28) and a family to support. Now simple maintenance cost make returning to racing prohibitive even though I already have the bike, most of the equipment, and experience necessary to self coach.
When you take into account a 50 dollar gym membership (to use the pool), cost of maintenance for the bike, and replacing the odds and ends that get worn out that are necessary to train and race (shoes, socks, chains, lube, brake pads, etc.) I simply cannot afford eighty dollars to go to a local race.
In addition to that their are much cheaper options in my area that become much more appealing. Cycling groups do unsanctioned cyclocross races for ten bucks, I can do a local running race for under 30 and all of that comes with post race comradery that I personally find lacking in the tri community in these parts.

Run, work, run, sleep, repeat until fast, injured or insane.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [metafizx] [ In reply to ]
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I understand that fully.

Recognised I was putting training ahead of everything else. Came to me when I started my Masters program and had to decided between run, library work or date night with pregnant wife. After that moment it was a full change in how I viewed it. Training went from being a 2 priority in my life to currently being # 5. Recently just started to train again after 1.5 years away.

Biking on zwift when my kid is napping during the day. Swimming late at night, and running with friends once a week. Racing does not happen yet as have other priorities with my money now besides me.


# 1 family
# 2 work
# 3 school (Masters)
# 4 home/maintence
# 5 triathlon
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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cerveloguy wrote:
I still swim and bike regularly. Run a little bit. X-country ski a lot in winter. But don't race. Why am I here? Are you saying if you're not racing any more you're not allowed to be? I'm usually not here nowadays, but lots of posters here aren't currently racing if you haven't noticed.

Not at all. I'm just curious about what motivates others. I'm 59 and have been racing since I was a kid...over 45 years continuous now. Your comment that you can't do this forever kind of struck me since that is precisely my plan until I am physically unable. You know that mental burn-out gene that so many have...I don't think I have it.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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OK. I get you.


I'm now 65 and quit after my first race in 60-65 AG. It was a local sprint and only five guys were in the AG. I came 2nd and realized I could never beat the 1st place guy and never lose to the guys behind me. :-) So it wasn't a mental burn out gene, but a realization that my best days were long behind me and running for AG is just not a buzz. I had 15 yrs in tri and had fun but felt it was time to move on. I enjoyed the racing, had some success but was never one of these super duper obsessed competitive individuals. I did different recreational sports all my life but was never one of these win at all cost type of guys.

I had a friend in my AG who was one of these guys who was ultra competitive in everything to the point of annoying everyone around him. He had a life of competitive sports but we couldn't even walk our dogs together without him turning it into some kind of a competition. He recently had a serious injury and can't compete any more but has a hard time dealing with it. If that was me I'd just find another absorbing hobby that wasn't as physical but more cerebral and adapt to it. I know people who collect stamps who are as dedicated to their hobby as any AG triathlete. Nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Cost of tri (let's start over) [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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I am competitive, but only to a point. The past couple of years, I was not pushing as hard because, as you know, it's hard to compete with the younger guys when you are in the upper age groups. Right now, my mojo is super jacked since I age up to the 60-64 group next month. My current plans are to compete up to about age 66 then I'll have to reassess. But I won't say I will quit. In my 20s, I had planned to 'retire' from racing at age 30. That came and went. I hope to at least be able to hike for many, many years; but if not, I certainly have a shit-pile of deferred interests to take up the slack (I collected stamps as a kid). Meanwhile, my second favorite hobby is travel; which is why I am big on destination races and don't do local ones as much as I used to.

All the best to you.
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