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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
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While my handful of “risky” outings aren’t about cherry-picking weaker races, a depleted pro field at a World Championship presents a better opportunity for a breakthrough result.


If someone beats a depleted field of second and third tier racers, can it be considered a breakthrough result?

I don't think anyone cares about ITU Worlds. Like at all.
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [flogazo] [ In reply to ]
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flogazo wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
Cute speech and all, but some athletes are trying to make ends meet as pros (and very often failing) and simply don't have "a couple K here and there" to throw around for the sake of a good experience.
Did you check who you were responding to? (hint: signature)

So what? How does that change anything?

I don't know why this would be such a concern for him. People race whatever they want to race for whatever damn reason they like and don't have to justify it to anyone else.
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
Probably pissed that they can't bring their M16s..

Why don't you like rifles? Won't fit in your purse?
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I actually don't disagree with you and considered including that wrinkle in my original post. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way. As a professional it makes complete sense but the fact that it "works" (i.e. marketing and sponsorship) may be more indicative of how far our sport still needs to come to be taken seriously.

Similar things happen on the local level. Everyone knows the handful of super competitive and fast local races. If someone skips the competitve local race and instead goes to another race the same weekend, it always annoys me when they start spouting off how they were overall winner or won their age group.
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think anyone cares about ITU Worlds. Like at all.[/quote]
that would depend in which country you live . and in smaller countries it does to matter somewhat, also for emerging tri nations it can be very handy to find sponsors with a solid result .
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
logella wrote:
Quote:
While my handful of “risky” outings aren’t about cherry-picking weaker races, a depleted pro field at a World Championship presents a better opportunity for a breakthrough result.


If someone beats a depleted field of second and third tier racers, can it be considered a breakthrough result?


For marketing purposes yes, you can claim say top 10 at WC's or top 20 at WC's on your resume. No one knows who showed up and you can only race the people who did. At a personal objective level you may know that at a deeper field, you may be 10 slots down, but that does not matter for the pro's resume.

This is true. My current and most of my prospective sponsors are North American based. A top 5 at ITU Worlds in Oklahoma is probably worth more from an exposure/sponsorship/marketing perspective than a similar performance which may be good for a top 10 on the other side of the world.

Also, this is one statement taken out of context from a 1,000 word post. I offered up several better reasons for why I'd chose ITU Worlds over 70.3 Worlds. I'd encourage anyone interested to read the post for my full perspective. The thesis is basically that I need to be pragmatic about the races I choose in order to pay the bills, even if that sometimes conflicts with self-gratification and other factors.

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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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logella wrote:
I actually don't disagree with you and considered including that wrinkle in my original post. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way. As a professional it makes complete sense but the fact that it "works" (i.e. marketing and sponsorship) may be more indicative of how far our sport still needs to come to be taken seriously.

Similar things happen on the local level. Everyone knows the handful of super competitive and fast local races. If someone skips the competitve local race and instead goes to another race the same weekend, it always annoys me when they start spouting off how they were overall winner or won their age group.

I agree with this, but it's not the current landscape when it comes to prize money and sponsorship. As I said in my blog post:

"Podiums and particularly wins at Ironman and Challenge events are disproportionately lucrative, regardless of the caliber of the race."

I get paid for winning and getting on the podium, not for trying my best or seeking out the biggest challenges. For example, I made $12k for handily winning Eagleman against a relatively weak field. The month before, I raced my heart out on a tough day at St. George and didn't even make $2k. That's how it goes.

"I’m drawn to the idea of chasing glory at big races and exploring my limits against the best in the world. If I were independently wealthy, that hunger would entirely dictate my race schedule. But such a quixotic pursuit needs to be tempered with some practicality in order to pay the bills."

What I'm saying is that triathlon is my passion, but it's also my livelihood. It's a tough way to earn a living, so I need to work the system as best I can. It can be a difficult balance to strike.

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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Cody Beals] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with what you are saying. I will add though that athletes have to be careful not to fall in the trap where they get stuck in a pattern of winning. By this, I will use an example. That example is the following.

Andy Potts has the talent to win the Ironman World Championship. He stands a far better chance of winner now, even though older, than he did before. Personally, I would love to sit down with Andy and ask him some very specific questions, but IMO, he was not experienced enough to win Kona in the early years despite having the talent. Now he is getting older and while he may still have the talent, and he may have the experience, it may also be too late. He spent too many years, hammering the swim, and then riding the bike too hard, too early, not understanding that it had no chance of helping him win the race, other than getting a clean transition. Frankly this is how Andy won all his races and so I am sure he figured that it was his ticket to Kona.

Instead Andy, should have been traveling, going to Frankfurt, adding tools to his tool-box, racing big races where they dynamics might be less like his 'b' class races he was winning. He may have gotten the experience early to have won Hawaii once or twice, but he didn't, and I think it hurt him.

Now not everyone can be Andy Potts and I think picking and choosing your battles is important. It sounds like you are in for ITU Long Course Worlds and given the proximity of both the race location and date of the IM 70.3 Championship it makes a ton of sense. Now I don't think anyone doing ITU Worlds should also be doing Kona if they planning to do well at Kona and frankly, Kona is half way back to the US from AUS.


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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Instead Andy, should have been traveling, going to Frankfurt, adding tools to his tool-box, racing big races where they dynamics might be less like his 'b' class races he was winning. //

I think you have it completely wrong here. I consider Andy to be one of the most successful pros the sport has ever seen. And I mean success in a financial sense. OF course he would like to win Hawaii, but not at the cost of all the other money he has been able to make over the years. He still gives himself a shot at winning Kona, but it never has become his single focus, and thus he probably have given up a couple places. Odds are he would never win Kona, and I believe he know that. And anything other than a win would not add to his $$.


And what would you say to Andy now? Train your ass off and just do hawaii and a couple qualifying events, and maybe you will be Frodo? Come on, looking objectively at kona now and there are very few that can even entertain winning. I think Gomez has a good chance against Frodo, but the old guard of the top 10 over the past decade don't have much of any chance in the near future.


Andy is doing the exact right thing as a professional, titles that don't pay, or chasing titles that have little chance of catching, are just longshots to be avoided. Professional means making money, he has won enough big races that he has maximized his sponsorship $$, so all that is left is prize money( and bonuses of course), and how often he can win it..
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Instead Andy, should have been traveling, going to Frankfurt, adding tools to his tool-box, racing big races where they dynamics might be less like his 'b' class races he was winning. //

I think you have it completely wrong here. I consider Andy to be one of the most successful pros the sport has ever seen. And I mean success in a financial sense. OF course he would like to win Hawaii, but not at the cost of all the other money he has been able to make over the years. He still gives himself a shot at winning Kona, but it never has become his single focus, and thus he probably have given up a couple places. Odds are he would never win Kona, and I believe he know that. And anything other than a win would not add to his $$.


And what would you say to Andy now? Train your ass off and just do hawaii and a couple qualifying events, and maybe you will be Frodo? Come on, looking objectively at kona now and there are very few that can even entertain winning. I think Gomez has a good chance against Frodo, but the old guard of the top 10 over the past decade don't have much of any chance in the near future.


Andy is doing the exact right thing as a professional, titles that don't pay, or chasing titles that have little chance of catching, are just longshots to be avoided. Professional means making money, he has won enough big races that he has maximized his sponsorship $$, so all that is left is prize money( and bonuses of course), and how often he can win it..

I removed part of my original post, about my assumption that Andy did in fact want to win Hawaii and thought he could win Hawaii. I think that is big part of it that maybe I should have left in. Regardless, IMO Andy, is very short-sided IMO, he is looking for the 'upfront' check, the immediate win, the immediate sponsor check, instead of what it takes to win more down the road. Conversation with industry folk would back this up.

Don't get me wrong, Andy is tremendously successful but it is easy to look at his success and say that it is enough. He could have made 10x what he has made had held a longer view and been more patient. It is funny, Andy was the only person who I heard feedback from Ironman Wisconsin last year. His feedback, "why would he do that". He doesn't see all the little reasons, some financial, as to why I would do that. Heck he doesn't even think, geez, Trek is right in Madison Wisconsin. Andy is a super nice guy, who I have a ton of respect for as an athlete. He has been wildly successful, likely much more than my own triathlon abilities could ever provide me. But he has been 1UPed by Hoffman and TO in recent years who are inferior athletes to Potts.


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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Regardless, IMO Andy, is very short-sided IMO, he is looking for the 'upfront' check, the immediate win, the immediate sponsor check, instead of what it takes to win more down the road. //

I wonder if you even know how silly this comment is? Andy has been quite the opposite, no immediate wins, but a very, very long career of wins. He has gotten sponsor checks all along the way too. What race exactly has be not won other than hawaii that would add to his super impressive resume? He has not been patient, how long do you think a super successful pro career can last? He is going to go from his mid 20's to early 40's, making more bank that just about anyone in the sport each year, and maybe more than anyone over a career.


I guess you just disagree with me that being a pro is about making money and having the most longevity as you can in this sport. Thats ok, but I just cannot fathom how you don't think he has held a long term view to his job here, in fact probably holds/held the most longest of term views. He did not want to be Tim DeBoom or the few others that won hawaii and ended up broke. He has taken a sport that usually gives you 10 years and is going to turn that into 20. Seems pretty long term view to me..
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I'm wary of this trap, namely becoming too comfortable and complacent about the races I select at the expense of long-term development. For now, my solution to this is to make sure that about a quarter to a third of my races are ones that take me out of my comfort zone. The primary objective at these races isn't to make money, but to better myself as a professional and as an athlete. The remaining events are the ones that dependably pay the bills. Assuming I continue to progress, the line between the "risky" races and the "moneymakers" should begin to blur. Anyways, I wasn't intending to hijack this thread and make it about me.

Interesting analysis of Andy's career and counterpoint from Monty. I could have agreed with either of you.

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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Regardless, IMO Andy, is very short-sided IMO, he is looking for the 'upfront' check, the immediate win, the immediate sponsor check, instead of what it takes to win more down the road. //

I wonder if you even know how silly this comment is? Andy has been quite the opposite, no immediate wins, but a very, very long career of wins. He has gotten sponsor checks all along the way too. What race exactly has be not won other than hawaii that would add to his super impressive resume? He has not been patient, how long do you think a super successful pro career can last? He is going to go from his mid 20's to early 40's, making more bank that just about anyone in the sport each year, and maybe more than anyone over a career.


I guess you just disagree with me that being a pro is about making money and having the most longevity as you can in this sport. Thats ok, but I just cannot fathom how you don't think he has held a long term view to his job here, in fact probably holds/held the most longest of term views. He did not want to be Tim DeBoom or the few others that won hawaii and ended up broke. He has taken a sport that usually gives you 10 years and is going to turn that into 20. Seems pretty long term view to me..

Monty - Clearly we are going to disagree, so to avoid insulting you and Potts more, I will bow out. I have fundamental differing view about patience and the long-game. If you really think my comment is silly then so be it. In the end it really doesn't matter, and we can't even really analyze it unless we know Potts intent and general motivation regarding life, triathlon etc.


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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Cody Beals] [ In reply to ]
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Cody Beals wrote:
I'm wary of this trap, namely becoming too comfortable and complacent about the races I select at the expense of long-term development. For now, my solution to this is to make sure that about a quarter to a third of my races are ones that take me out of my comfort zone. The primary objective at these races isn't to make money, but to better myself as a professional and as an athlete. The remaining events are the ones that dependably pay the bills. Assuming I continue to progress, the line between the "risky" races and the "moneymakers" should begin to blur. Anyways, I wasn't intending to hijack this thread and make it about me.

Interesting analysis of Andy's career and counterpoint from Monty. I could have agreed with either of you.

Interesting, yes, this is a very rational thought in allocating / budgeting a specific amount of time and resources to furthering your 'education'. Love it. Just the way you put it speaks very highly of how much thought you are putting into the process. Maybe Potts has done that I dunno. But I look at it as a very analogous situation to any cash-cows in business who sit on the laurels and expect things to never change instead of investing more in R&D and eventually not being able to pivot their own business to keep them in business.


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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Cody Beals] [ In reply to ]
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Cody Beals wrote:
I'm wary of this trap, namely becoming too comfortable and complacent about the races I select at the expense of long-term development. For now, my solution to this is to make sure that about a quarter to a third of my races are ones that take me out of my comfort zone. The primary objective at these races isn't to make money, but to better myself as a professional and as an athlete. The remaining events are the ones that dependably pay the bills. Assuming I continue to progress, the line between the "risky" races and the "moneymakers" should begin to blur. Anyways, I wasn't intending to hijack this thread and make it about me.

Interesting analysis of Andy's career and counterpoint from Monty. I could have agreed with either of you.

very true, and different people come to different conclusions. which is great.
i agree with monty that Potts does what he does extremly well ( especailly given his nationality ie the biggest tri market in the world and the fact that since deboom no american has won kona )
If he was from the seychelles etc than prob he would have made more money trying to win hawaii and having a few hawaii podiums.

BTW Cody great blog.
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Had been meaning to comment on this thread a while back, but had been wanting to cross post my thoughts on 70.3 Worlds as well. So rather than taking up the whole space here of that post, you can read it here: http://www.bw-tri.com/...64a1f97b693d957ad31d

And then going to reply to some other comments on here:

hey_burgs wrote:
There's two US male pros racing and I think it's lousy that there isn't more. I know it's a home race for us Aussies, but in years past Vegas and Mont Tremblant for instance, there would be at least a dozen Aussies racing abroad.

Not everything is about making money or a return on investment as a pro. At least this is not the Aussie way. It's a World Championship. You put yourself in the race because you want to test yourself against the best. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. Everytime we race we take risks, financial or otherwise. Why should a trip to Australia be any different? You put yourself in the race because it's an experience. This amazing sport we do gives us an opportunity to travel, experience different countries and different cultures that we wouldn't experience otherwise. To forsake this because you might lose a couple K here and there is retarded.

Just for the record, Rodrigo Acevedo is Colombian and represents Colombia. I am the only US Male racing here, very surprising when I realized this. You hit a lot of the other points that I covered as well, not everything is about making money! Life experiences, like Dev talked about can sometimes provide bigger ROI than any prize purse or bonus will ever do.

PubliusValerius wrote:
Cute speech and all, but some athletes are trying to make ends meet as pros (and very often failing) and simply don't have "a couple K here and there" to throw around for the sake of a good experience.

Didn't take a "couple $K" for me to pull off this trip. Dev already hinted on how to make it work. My financial breakdown of the trip is in the blog post noted above.

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
It is a great opportunity to get KPR points as well. With the Pro system moving to 4 races instead of 5 for KPR it seems like a great place to pick up points. I mean even a 13th place finish gets you about the same points as winning a major 70.3 (P750)

Yes, very much so, but like you pointed out after about 13th-15th it drops off pretty quickly. Still some pretty solid points on the line, and they seem to be getting harder and harder to come by!

-Brad Williams
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [@BW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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@BW_Tri wrote:
Had been meaning to comment on this thread a while back, but had been wanting to cross post my thoughts on 70.3 Worlds as well. So rather than taking up the whole space here of that post, you can read it here: http://www.bw-tri.com/...64a1f97b693d957ad31d

And then going to reply to some other comments on here:

hey_burgs wrote:
There's two US male pros racing and I think it's lousy that there isn't more. I know it's a home race for us Aussies, but in years past Vegas and Mont Tremblant for instance, there would be at least a dozen Aussies racing abroad.

Not everything is about making money or a return on investment as a pro. At least this is not the Aussie way. It's a World Championship. You put yourself in the race because you want to test yourself against the best. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. Everytime we race we take risks, financial or otherwise. Why should a trip to Australia be any different? You put yourself in the race because it's an experience. This amazing sport we do gives us an opportunity to travel, experience different countries and different cultures that we wouldn't experience otherwise. To forsake this because you might lose a couple K here and there is retarded.


Just for the record, Rodrigo Acevedo is Colombian and represents Colombia. I am the only US Male racing here, very surprising when I realized this. You hit a lot of the other points that I covered as well, not everything is about making money! Life experiences, like Dev talked about can sometimes provide bigger ROI than any prize purse or bonus will ever do.

PubliusValerius wrote:

Cute speech and all, but some athletes are trying to make ends meet as pros (and very often failing) and simply don't have "a couple K here and there" to throw around for the sake of a good experience.


Didn't take a "couple $K" for me to pull off this trip. Dev already hinted on how to make it work. My financial breakdown of the trip is in the blog post noted above.

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

It is a great opportunity to get KPR points as well. With the Pro system moving to 4 races instead of 5 for KPR it seems like a great place to pick up points. I mean even a 13th place finish gets you about the same points as winning a major 70.3 (P750)


Yes, very much so, but like you pointed out after about 13th-15th it drops off pretty quickly. Still some pretty solid points on the line, and they seem to be getting harder and harder to come by!

Good luck Brad...it's a long way from the days of being an Airman at your first 70.3 Worlds in Clearwater in 2010. Very excited to see you are in Oz as a pro now. This is the first 70.3 WC that I did not make it to, but will enjoy your journey from far away. Glad you are able to do it on the "cheap" and hopefully can use it as an opp to continue to make business connections with those who are there. And maybe you get some KPR and Chattanooga 70.3 WC points for next year too.
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
@BW_Tri wrote:
Had been meaning to comment on this thread a while back, but had been wanting to cross post my thoughts on 70.3 Worlds as well. So rather than taking up the whole space here of that post, you can read it here: http://www.bw-tri.com/...64a1f97b693d957ad31d

And then going to reply to some other comments on here:

hey_burgs wrote:
There's two US male pros racing and I think it's lousy that there isn't more. I know it's a home race for us Aussies, but in years past Vegas and Mont Tremblant for instance, there would be at least a dozen Aussies racing abroad.

Not everything is about making money or a return on investment as a pro. At least this is not the Aussie way. It's a World Championship. You put yourself in the race because you want to test yourself against the best. Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. Everytime we race we take risks, financial or otherwise. Why should a trip to Australia be any different? You put yourself in the race because it's an experience. This amazing sport we do gives us an opportunity to travel, experience different countries and different cultures that we wouldn't experience otherwise. To forsake this because you might lose a couple K here and there is retarded.


Just for the record, Rodrigo Acevedo is Colombian and represents Colombia. I am the only US Male racing here, very surprising when I realized this. You hit a lot of the other points that I covered as well, not everything is about making money! Life experiences, like Dev talked about can sometimes provide bigger ROI than any prize purse or bonus will ever do.

PubliusValerius wrote:

Cute speech and all, but some athletes are trying to make ends meet as pros (and very often failing) and simply don't have "a couple K here and there" to throw around for the sake of a good experience.


Didn't take a "couple $K" for me to pull off this trip. Dev already hinted on how to make it work. My financial breakdown of the trip is in the blog post noted above.

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

It is a great opportunity to get KPR points as well. With the Pro system moving to 4 races instead of 5 for KPR it seems like a great place to pick up points. I mean even a 13th place finish gets you about the same points as winning a major 70.3 (P750)


Yes, very much so, but like you pointed out after about 13th-15th it drops off pretty quickly. Still some pretty solid points on the line, and they seem to be getting harder and harder to come by!


Good luck Brad...it's a long way from the days of being an Airman at your first 70.3 Worlds in Clearwater in 2010. Very excited to see you are in Oz as a pro now. This is the first 70.3 WC that I did not make it to, but will enjoy your journey from far away. Glad you are able to do it on the "cheap" and hopefully can use it as an opp to continue to make business connections with those who are there. And maybe you get some KPR and Chattanooga 70.3 WC points for next year too.

Thanks Dev, 2009 was first World Champs in Florida ;) Didn't race it again until 2013. As for points, KPR not on the radar, Chattanooga, we will see :)

Thanks again for the support!

-Brad Williams
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [@BW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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OK, then it has been 7 years since 2009 when we met there for the dinner with Eric!
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [@BW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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@BW_Tri wrote:
Had been meaning to comment on this thread a while back, but had been wanting to cross post my thoughts on 70.3 Worlds as well. So rather than taking up the whole space here of that post, you can read it here: http://www.bw-tri.com/...64a1f97b693d957ad31d

And then going to reply to some other comments on here: !

Thanks for circling back around for me. I read it. Good stuff. Have a great race - if you finish you will be the #1 American in the world :)


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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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You forgot to use pink text on that last sentence ;) thanks and good luck at your next race, seems your toe is fixed based on Timberman?

-Brad Williams
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [@BW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I mean it seriously though - even if you are the only one, it doesn't matter. You were the only person with the stones to go and deserve that. As for my foot, my foot is nearly 95% percent, still a little swollen in the tri shoes, but no problem running and I don't notice it cycling from a pain standpoint. Now just have to get back the fitness lost.


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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
I mean it seriously though - even if you are the only one, it doesn't matter. You were the only person with the stones to go and deserve that. As for my foot, my foot is nearly 95% percent, still a little swollen in the tri shoes, but no problem running and I don't notice it cycling from a pain standpoint. Now just have to get back the fitness lost.

x2....you can only beat those that show up. Part of the challenge is getting to the start line to race. Brad has not exactly followed an easy schedule to get to that start line and has one of the heavier recent travel schedules, and that travel schedule alone as well as the prospect of losing money made others pass. Brad stepped up to the travel and a likely prospect of losing some money, but it appears he is treating this as an investment of his time for other positive outcomes. Like in any business, sometimes you invest, sometimes your harvest.
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Re: 70.3 Worlds Start List - No Pro Americans Want To Go??? [hey_burgs] [ In reply to ]
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By the way, are you going to make the old man Crowie hurt after the swim tomorrow on the bike?
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