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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, pedal cadence is likely a 1/2 sec frequency for a 120rpm spin which is a long time for adjustments to be able to be made and response read on the fly, On top of unpredictable cadence by the rider.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [astig] [ In reply to ]
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astig wrote:
Nate, although on the average it's spot on, how come the power seems to wander more on your fix vs using the wahoo hack? Thanks again for your great work!

here's my ride yesterday using the wahoo hack prior to your beta release.




here's todays ride with your beta



In the graph at the top you only had your Wahoo Kickr's ANT+ power paired with TrainerRoad, even the the PM was driving the offset.

The Wahoo Kickr's power is heavily smoothed when it's broadcasted. I think this is because the heavy fly wheel.

A good test to demonstrate this is to use the Wahoo beta firmware and just pair the ANT+ power meter like you did above, then pair your power meter with your garmin. Take the two TCX files in the end and compare them. Your PM will be much more jumpy than the Kickr if there's no smoothing applied to the display.

That's just the nature of measuring power at the crank or pedals. It's generally pretty jumpy, even if the Kickr has someone locked in exactly at 200, your Quarq or SRM is going to go 190, 205, 192, 210, 200, 198, 212, ect. No one is perfectly smooth.

Does that help?

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the latest builds. It has an update for the zero target ERG and this one will work with free rides.


If this works I'm going to take this off the forum and do an official beta release. I don't think the admins of ST like it when we do development work like this directly in the forum.


PC
https://www.dropbox.com/...oad.2.6.502.exe?dl=0


Mac
https://www.dropbox.com/...Road.2.6.36.dmg?dl=0

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
I don't think the admins of ST like it when we do development work like this directly in the forum.

Dan may not but forum participants certainly do appreciate it:)






Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Just tried the fix for the first time (did Gould).....overall, I love it...TSS, IF, kJ, etc for the entire workout were spot on between my garmin and TR. Within the workout though, it seemed really jumpy - like power fluctuating from 195-305 during a 242 watt target interval....I think that's probably just my own lack of pedaling smoothness though, but I think I'm gonna play with the power smoothing (I had it at 5 sec); I felt like the kicker was struggling to keep me on target. And the 2-seconds-prior power adjustment is a really really good update. Again, well done.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, so I've been lurking on this thread, waiting on something to surface that was easy quick and effective. This is all three! I've really enjoyed my Kickr, but have been really disappointed in how far off the reading and resistance is from what my quarq reads. Tonight I downloaded the beta, reactivated my subscription and built my first workout. I'm very impressed. Worked like a charm. Maybe it isn't 100% yet, but it is far and away better than it has ever been. In fact, I think it is good enough now that I'd be perfectly happy if it never got any better. Tracked very closely and the timing of the resistance changes was good.

Not only that, but I used the live chat to ask a few questions during setup, and Nate himself jumped on to walk me through it. Amazing customer service for sure!
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
Here's the latest builds. It has an update for the zero target ERG and this one will work with free rides.


If this works I'm going to take this off the forum and do an official beta release. I don't think the admins of ST like it when we do development work like this directly in the forum.


I can't keep with the beta updates :-) Hopefully the ST admins are okay because there are over 30 pages of a few ST members trying to figure out to get this trainer to work for us and you and Drew helped us.

I used 2.6.500 last night and it worked well. I look forward to your continued effort to refine this solution. It looks like it is working well now as it is.
Here is one interval segment comparison in WKO Multi File Range Analysis. The Quarq / Garmin Edge data (yellow) to the Quarq / TrainerRoad / Kickr ERG data (red). The overall metrics for totals were identical for NP / AP / TSS / IF as one would hope. I am curious as another poster stated if there is any sort of conflict between the Wahoo beta firmware applied to the Kickr because it was working with TrainerRoad without running any Wahoo apps. Based on trial experience yesterday and the matching data that there is not a conflict as a first guess.

Just a note that adding smoothing to the display on TrainerRoad did not seem to work for me. I set it from 3s to 5s and it did not change, but that is not a big deal at all. Getting the data and trainer control to reflect the power meter torque is by far more important to me.


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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Here's my workout this morning with the latest beta build.
It went pretty well except for a spike of about 20-30W above target load at the beginning of the second 20min interval. I wonder if TR lost ANT+ connection with my PM for a few seconds at that point... it doesn't happen very often but I've seen that happen before.






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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Everyone.

One thing that you'll see differently between our solution vs the Kickr solution is that we're displaying your actual power meter data and graphing that. With the Kickr solution, it's still displaying the Wahoo Kickr power data.

Because of the big flywheel on the Kickr, the Wahoo Kickr data will be smoothed.

I believe that power meter users always want the power meter on their bike recorded; that way you have a single source of power data across all of your rides.

So if you do a jump from rest to FTP like at the beginning of the second power interval in the graph above, you'll see that your power meter actually jumps up much higher than it's supposed to at first, and then the Kickr locks in.

That's just the nature of the beast with any ERG trainer. You're going to get a bit of a spike unless you're extremely smooth and the firmware on the ERG trainer is magical :). We don't actually adjust the offset at all when you make a big jump like that. We give the Kickr a cooling off period to let it kinda set in before we start taking data to apply a new offset.

One thing I could do is make it so that we report the Kickr data instead of the power meter data in TrainerRoad. You'd get extremely smooth graphs, but you'd be hiding some of your power meter data.

Another example of this would be 15 second on/off sprints. The kickr does a pretty good job with these, but you'll be losing some of the top end power that your PM puts out if we just recorded the Kickr data. I think you want to show the power meter data from your Quarq/Vector/SRM/P2M/ect. Although it's a little more jumpy, I think it gives a better representation of what you're actually doing.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
I believe that power meter users always want the power meter on their bike recorded; that way you have a single source of power data across all of your rides. THIS

I think you want to show the power meter data from your Quarq/Vector/SRM/P2M/ect. Although it's a little more jumpy, I think it gives a better representation of what you're actually doing. & THIS

Anybody who believes their power output is as smooth as the Kickr purports it to be is kidding themselves. Power output is extremely stochastic. Please display power from the actual power meter only. I will say that Wahoo's fix (when it works) provides slightly smoother power data (from my Power2Max) than the current Trainer Road beta, however, I'm sure this will improve as you guys kick it around a little longer.
Last edited by: cmeeks: Apr 2, 15 13:55
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
I believe that power meter users always want the power meter on their bike recorded; that way you have a single source of power data across all of your rides.

Absolutely agree with that. We know that no power meter is 100% accurate, but that doesn't matter too much as long as (a) we always use the same power meter, and (b) that power meter is consistent and delivers repeatable measurements. I believe you've made the right call here.

Nate Pearson wrote:
We don't actually adjust the offset at all when you make a big jump like that. We give the Kickr a cooling off period to let it kinda set in before we start taking data to apply a new offset.

This surprises me, and implies that the differences between power measurements on the Kickr and the external power meter vary not only with absolute power and temperature, but also the rate of change of power.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but should this not be an implementation of a traditional PID control system? I can't help but wonder if a back to basics approach wouldn't yield a simple and perfectly robust system.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Could be, but I don't think it was just me being a little too eager and stepping to hard on the gas at the beginning of the second interval. I actually felt the Kickr resistance spike and it took 20-30 seconds before it slowly came down to the normal 250w. I felt surprised...

As far as the graph goes, I'm ok with showing the pm actual power instead of the smoothed Kickr output. While a smooth graph appeals to my inner OCDness I think I'll survive :)

Thanks for fixing this!

Nate Pearson wrote:
Hey Everyone.

One thing that you'll see differently between our solution vs the Kickr solution is that we're displaying your actual power meter data and graphing that. With the Kickr solution, it's still displaying the Wahoo Kickr power data.

Because of the big flywheel on the Kickr, the Wahoo Kickr data will be smoothed.

I believe that power meter users always want the power meter on their bike recorded; that way you have a single source of power data across all of your rides.

So if you do a jump from rest to FTP like at the beginning of the second power interval in the graph above, you'll see that your power meter actually jumps up much higher than it's supposed to at first, and then the Kickr locks in.

That's just the nature of the beast with any ERG trainer. You're going to get a bit of a spike unless you're extremely smooth and the firmware on the ERG trainer is magical :). We don't actually adjust the offset at all when you make a big jump like that. We give the Kickr a cooling off period to let it kinda set in before we start taking data to apply a new offset.

One thing I could do is make it so that we report the Kickr data instead of the power meter data in TrainerRoad. You'd get extremely smooth graphs, but you'd be hiding some of your power meter data.

Another example of this would be 15 second on/off sprints. The kickr does a pretty good job with these, but you'll be losing some of the top end power that your PM puts out if we just recorded the Kickr data. I think you want to show the power meter data from your Quarq/Vector/SRM/P2M/ect. Although it's a little more jumpy, I think it gives a better representation of what you're actually doing.
Last edited by: sp1ke: Apr 2, 15 15:41
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [marting] [ In reply to ]
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marting wrote:
Nate Pearson wrote:
I believe that power meter users always want the power meter on their bike recorded; that way you have a single source of power data across all of your rides.


Absolutely agree with that. We know that no power meter is 100% accurate, but that doesn't matter too much as long as (a) we always use the same power meter, and (b) that power meter is consistent and delivers repeatable measurements. I believe you've made the right call here.

Nate Pearson wrote:
We don't actually adjust the offset at all when you make a big jump like that. We give the Kickr a cooling off period to let it kinda set in before we start taking data to apply a new offset.


This surprises me, and implies that the differences between power measurements on the Kickr and the external power meter vary not only with absolute power and temperature, but also the rate of change of power.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but should this not be an implementation of a traditional PID control system? I can't help but wonder if a back to basics approach wouldn't yield a simple and perfectly robust system.

It's more like when the Kickr changes it's target power there's usually a little spike of power reported by the PM. So you don't go 100, 100, 100, 100, 400 perfectly. It's more like 100, 100, 100, 450, 425, 400, 400, 400. We want to make sure that we don't measure the difference when there's a big change up OR a big drop off. So if you go 400, 400, 400, 100, your PM might read 400, 400, 400, 50, 50, 75, 100. Part of that drop off is due to the spinning flywheel on the Kickr that makes it feel so good.

Your other point is that the difference in power might be different at different levels. This is totally possible. If this were the case, you'd say that the two power meters have different slopes. When they get higher they might diverge or converge.

With most power meters, there's a way to update your slope. You do this by hanging a known weight from the cranks (usually) and apply some math and record the setting in the power meter.

The other thing that could happen is that the offset of a power meter might change while riding. For anyone who's ever owned a computrainer, you know that you have to do a roll down to get good power numbers. While you ride, the temperature of the wheel could change and you might need to do another roll down. If you didn't constantly do a roll down, your computrainer could drift while you ride.

With TrainerRoad's solution, as long as you trusted that your PM didn't drift, it would constantly update your trainer's load to compensate for any drift.

Hope that answers your questions.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [sp1ke] [ In reply to ]
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sp1ke wrote:
Could be, but I don't think it was just me being a little too eager and stepping to hard on the gas at the beginning of the second interval. I actually felt the Kickr resistance spike and it took 20-30 seconds before it slowly came down to the normal 250w. I felt surprised...


As far as the graph goes, I'm ok with showing the pm actual power instead of the smoothed Kickr output. While a smooth graph appeals to my inner OCDness I think I'll survive :)

Thanks for fixing this!

Nate Pearson wrote:
Hey Everyone.


One thing that you'll see differently between our solution vs the Kickr solution is that we're displaying your actual power meter data and graphing that. With the Kickr solution, it's still displaying the Wahoo Kickr power data.

Because of the big flywheel on the Kickr, the Wahoo Kickr data will be smoothed.

I believe that power meter users always want the power meter on their bike recorded; that way you have a single source of power data across all of your rides.

So if you do a jump from rest to FTP like at the beginning of the second power interval in the graph above, you'll see that your power meter actually jumps up much higher than it's supposed to at first, and then the Kickr locks in.

That's just the nature of the beast with any ERG trainer. You're going to get a bit of a spike unless you're extremely smooth and the firmware on the ERG trainer is magical :). We don't actually adjust the offset at all when you make a big jump like that. We give the Kickr a cooling off period to let it kinda set in before we start taking data to apply a new offset.

One thing I could do is make it so that we report the Kickr data instead of the power meter data in TrainerRoad. You'd get extremely smooth graphs, but you'd be hiding some of your power meter data.

Another example of this would be 15 second on/off sprints. The kickr does a pretty good job with these, but you'll be losing some of the top end power that your PM puts out if we just recorded the Kickr data. I think you want to show the power meter data from your Quarq/Vector/SRM/P2M/ect. Although it's a little more jumpy, I think it gives a better representation of what you're actually doing.


Can you send me your log files to nate@trainerroad.com? I'll be able to see if we put an extra offset on that change. That will let me know if our algorithm needs to be tweaked or if it was a Kickr thing.

Here's how to send me your logs:
Open the desktop app and click on the info tab.


Hold ctrl and click (hold command and click on Mac) on the support link on that tab. This will open the folder with a folder called TrainerRoadLogs.


Zip that folder up and email me.


Thanks! If anyone else has any inconsistencies they want me to check out please send me your logs and e-mail me at nate@trainerroad.com. :)

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! just sent those out to you!
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Used the latest beta this morning and works great
did Morgan vo2max workout 8x3min

Couple of them had a sag at start because I ramped up rpm too much,
my comfort rpm at these efforts is around 100-104rpm,
when given instructions just before the start to ramp up I probably went to like 106-108 and was holding there for a few seconds
before dropping back
so the TR erg increase sagged when I dropped back to 100 or so.

last interval I deliberately did not up the rpm at the start.

Very happy with this solution.


Last edited by: lennyk: Apr 3, 15 9:23
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [lennyk] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Nate,

The new update seemed to work fantastic on my first and only ride so far, but I noticed a problem for non users of external power meters. My brother uses my Kickr without external power and noticed actual power will not display during his workout. ERG mode, HR, and Cadence worked fine, along with wattage readings in the devices tab under Kickr. The workout will proceed as normal showing the progression lines. In short, no power display during the workout and no after workout data once complete.

Alan
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [bassn] [ In reply to ]
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bassn wrote:
Hi Nate,

The new update seemed to work fantastic on my first and only ride so far, but I noticed a problem for non users of external power meters. My brother uses my Kickr without external power and noticed actual power will not display during his workout. ERG mode, HR, and Cadence worked fine, along with wattage readings in the devices tab under Kickr. The workout will proceed as normal showing the progression lines. In short, no power display during the workout and no after workout data once complete.

Alan

Thanks for the report! I'll check it out tomorrow.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [triblake] [ In reply to ]
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I guess my enthusiasm here came a little too soon. I did a recovery interval ride this morning and it was really disappointing. During rest or recovery intervals between efforts, I like to switch to manual or resistance mode, so I can ride at my own "pace". Today I did this, and after I switched back to erg mode for the next interval it wouldn't hold. The Kickr lowered resistance for a few seconds, then ramped up quickly, to a much higher level than specified. I couldn't ever get it back down. Tried restarting, unplugging the Kickr, nothing seemed to help. Has anyone tested this scenario (erg to manual or resistance, then back to erg) yet?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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After getting a few rides in, I am really liking the upgrade. It seems like TR adjusts faster than perfPro to cadence and power changes. I didn't have to put a 10 second burst of power and cadence to overcome the load generated by the kickr. It just seemed that the transitions were smoother. Even though the graph looks really jagged, I was still able to hit all the target power...well almost



Great job TR team!
Last edited by: astig: Apr 6, 15 7:13
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [triblake] [ In reply to ]
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triblake wrote:
I guess my enthusiasm here came a little too soon. I did a recovery interval ride this morning and it was really disappointing. During rest or recovery intervals between efforts, I like to switch to manual or resistance mode, so I can ride at my own "pace". Today I did this, and after I switched back to erg mode for the next interval it wouldn't hold. The Kickr lowered resistance for a few seconds, then ramped up quickly, to a much higher level than specified. I couldn't ever get it back down. Tried restarting, unplugging the Kickr, nothing seemed to help. Has anyone tested this scenario (erg to manual or resistance, then back to erg) yet?


Ah, thanks for this! If someone switches out of ERG I'll reset everything.

Could you send me your logs so I can just confirm what I think is happening did happen?

Here's how to send me your logs:


Open the desktop app and click on the info tab.


Hold ctrl and click (hold command and click on Mac) on the support link on that tab. This will open the folder with a folder called TrainerRoadLogs.


Zip that folder up and email me at nate@trainerroad.com.


Thanks!

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Latest beta is available here: https://www.trainerroad.com/install/beta

The app will check for new betas every time it loads.

I've tweaked it a bit. If you get more than 5 seconds of zeros in a row we reset the offset. That means you'll just need to ride for a bit for it to lock in again.

We also reset the offset if you go between ERG and Slope.

Again, if you find any bugs let me know at nate@trainerroad.com.

Thanks!

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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OK, First we just wanted to say sorry for being a little quiet in here we had a lot of stuff in the works and attacking KICKR firmware from many different angles at the moment. We have been running a lot of closed beta testing and 100's of hours of robot testing, we really wanted to wait until we had the full picture before letting everyone here know.

Below are some details on our public (slowtwitch) beta of our new firmware. You can either try it now or wait a couple days until we push it live.

We understand that the most important factor for people using power meters outside is to have consistency. The ability for KICKR to be driven from a 3rd party power meter should solve this, just keep in mind that zeroing those power meters as you warm up is critical to getting accurate reported power. When riding outside, a lot of power meters might auto zero when coasting or pedalling backwards, since you don't normally coast indoors make sure you follow your manufacturer's recommendation for zeroing. Note: some power meters do have temperature compensation and don't require zeroing in the same way, ie Stages.

We would love for you to try out the new firmware and give us feedback. Initially it would be great if you could just update the firmware, do a spin down and compare the results to your power meter, ie don't link you power meter to the KICKR, we would love to hear how the raw numbers look.


What’s in the new firmware?

a) Applied temperature compensation to the power from the friction (1), this friction decreases as the KICKR warms up. We used thousands of spindown results from users around the world to help tweak this formula.
b) Updated our spindown calculations based on 100s of hours of dyno (robot) testing. We found particularly at the fringes, high and low spindown times we had room for improvement.
c) Added the ability to source power reading from a 3rd party power meter. This will allow the 3rd party power meter to essentially drive the KICKR's brake.

In our initial roll out we have seen improved results for users just from a) and b)

Getting KICKR Firmware v1.3.32 (will be 1.4.0 at release)


Currently you need the iOS Wahoo Fitness app to link (c) a 3rd party power meter, although once set you can go use the KICKR in another app. (until you power cycle the KICKR)

- Download the Wahoo Fitness app (iOS)
- Connect to the KICKR (Sensors -> KICKR)
- Once connected tap the KICKR icon 6 times, it should show a list of beta firmware
- Select v1.3.32, the password is "publicbeta"


Configuring 3rd Party Power control


- You will need to know the ANT+ ID of the 3rd Party Power meter
- Connect to the KICKR (Sensors -> KICKR)
- Once connected, if you have the correct firmware you will see 3 new options.
1. ERG Mode Speed simulation (virtual speed @ 0% grade when using ERG)
2. Cadence from ANT+ (steal your cadence from a nearby sensor - automatic if you use 3 below)
3. Control w/ ANT+ Power Meter
- Turn on Control w/ ANT+ Power Meter, you will see a new field
- Enter your ANT+ Power meter ID.
Here is a video of the setup, https://www.dropbox.com/...g30pi/Setup.mov?dl=0
NOTE: If you only see 1, but not 2 and 3 then please contact our support.
You can now start a workout, the Power icon should now have 2 arrows around in a circle (seen in the video), This icon will turn green when the KICKR is feeding power from your power meter.

NOTE: iPhone 4S and ipad users will still see the old red dot on the power page, this is just a bug and will always be red. The new icon indicates the 3rd party power meter status.


3rd Party Apps


Over the next month we will give access to 3rd parties to set the ANT+ ID information, while PerfPro and now TrainerRoad have a version of the power matching we think all users will benefit from the latest firmware.
If you have any questions, let us know and we will do our best to answer anything here. If anyone wants to speak to us directly, just email support@wahoofitness.com and we will keep an eye out for questions.

Thanks
The Wahoo Team
Last edited by: WahooMurray: Apr 7, 15 16:23
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [WahooMurray] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all of this info. I will be doing a power comparison with the new firmware tonight.

A while back I bought the calibration kit. Can you say what the current recommendation is regarding the kit? Do you expect it to provide even better results over the new firmware, or do you think the new firmware makes the calibration kit unnecessary?

I really like the ability to bridge the cadence sent from my ANT+ power meter to Bluetooth. This lets me use the cadence from my Garmin Vectors (ANT+) with my iPad without any dongles or a Bluetooth cadence sensor. Is there any chance you would be able to pair to a heart rate strap as well? It would be great to bridge an ANT+ heart rate strap to Bluetooth in the same way.

Thanks again.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
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Nate Pearson wrote:
astig wrote:
Nate, although on the average it's spot on, how come the power seems to wander more on your fix vs using the wahoo hack? Thanks again for your great work!

here's my ride yesterday using the wahoo hack prior to your beta release.




here's todays ride with your beta




In the graph at the top you only had your Wahoo Kickr's ANT+ power paired with TrainerRoad, even the the PM was driving the offset.

The Wahoo Kickr's power is heavily smoothed when it's broadcasted. I think this is because the heavy fly wheel.

A good test to demonstrate this is to use the Wahoo beta firmware and just pair the ANT+ power meter like you did above, then pair your power meter with your garmin. Take the two TCX files in the end and compare them. Your PM will be much more jumpy than the Kickr if there's no smoothing applied to the display.

That's just the nature of measuring power at the crank or pedals. It's generally pretty jumpy, even if the Kickr has someone locked in exactly at 200, your Quarq or SRM is going to go 190, 205, 192, 210, 200, 198, 212, ect. No one is perfectly smooth.

Does that help?

At least in this particular case, I wonder if scaling of the graphs on the y-axis is also an issue as HR and cadence visually appear more smooth.
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