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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [cmeeks] [ In reply to ]
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cmeeks wrote:
sneeuwaap wrote:
It does work with Trainerroad, btw - I've done two TR sessions with this, and it is like night and day. I was one of the unlucky ones whose Kickr read 30-40W too high, and that was on my second one (first had the same problem so I exchanged it). I also have the calibration kit, which I can now happily return to Wahoo. You do have to be careful with the interplay between the Wahooligan app and TR - basically, start the Wahooligan app to establish the setting that the PM controls the Kickr, make sure it's in Erg mode on the app, and then start TR. It works like a charm.

Has anybody got it work with TR on a laptop or PC?

Yes, I run the Wahoo app on my iPad and TR on an iMac that has an ANT+ USB dongle.

Ian
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [sneeuwaap] [ In reply to ]
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sneeuwaap wrote:
cmeeks wrote:
sneeuwaap wrote:
It does work with Trainerroad, btw - I've done two TR sessions with this, and it is like night and day. I was one of the unlucky ones whose Kickr read 30-40W too high, and that was on my second one (first had the same problem so I exchanged it). I also have the calibration kit, which I can now happily return to Wahoo. You do have to be careful with the interplay between the Wahooligan app and TR - basically, start the Wahooligan app to establish the setting that the PM controls the Kickr, make sure it's in Erg mode on the app, and then start TR. It works like a charm.


Has anybody got it work with TR on a laptop or PC?


Yes, I run the Wahoo app on my iPad and TR on an iMac that has an ANT+ USB dongle.

Ian

No need to keep the app running when using TR in Erg mode, the firmware is installed on the KICKR and I believe it must send the External PM ID to the KICKR. I don't keep the app running when I am using TR. At least I'm pretty sure I closed all the Wahoo apps on my IOS device..

I have personally noticed that my Vectors report 1-5 watts higher than TR during an interval and 5-10 watts lower during recovery I have some theory's as to why, anyone experiencing the same?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
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jmuise wrote:
No need to keep the app running when using TR in Erg mode, the firmware is installed on the KICKR and I believe it must send the External PM ID to the KICKR. I don't keep the app running when I am using TR. At least I'm pretty sure I closed all the Wahoo apps on my IOS device..

I have personally noticed that my Vectors report 1-5 watts higher than TR during an interval and 5-10 watts lower during recovery I have some theory's as to why, anyone experiencing the same?

Thanks, jmuise and Ian, for your posts. I was trying to figure out whether there's any reason that the Wahoo app would need to be running if TR is driving the workout. Seems like the answer is no. Follow-up question: do you need to open the Wahoo app *at all*? That is, if I just go straight to TR and start my workout, will it get the power from my Quarq if that's how I had it previously set up? Or does it need to establish that connection through the Wahoo app before each ride?

As for the difference between the Vectors and TR, could this be related to different smoothing methods being used as was discussed above?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
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jmuise wrote:
I have personally noticed that my Vectors report 1-5 watts higher than TR during an interval and 5-10 watts lower during recovery I have some theory's as to why, anyone experiencing the same?

I noticed similar using the Quarq at the moments I had clarity of mind (short high intensity intervals) to glance at both screens. Interesting though when I looked at some of the intervals using WKO Multi File Range Analysis the recorded data was just a smoother version of the raw Quarq data. In the end IF, TSS, NP and AP were very close to match in both workouts.

I am glad that it seems to be just a touch higher in the interval since that is the meat of the training session and I can walk away knowing I did my part for the day. :-)
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [proftri] [ In reply to ]
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proftri wrote:
jmuise wrote:

No need to keep the app running when using TR in Erg mode, the firmware is installed on the KICKR and I believe it must send the External PM ID to the KICKR. I don't keep the app running when I am using TR. At least I'm pretty sure I closed all the Wahoo apps on my IOS device..

I have personally noticed that my Vectors report 1-5 watts higher than TR during an interval and 5-10 watts lower during recovery I have some theory's as to why, anyone experiencing the same?


Thanks, jmuise and Ian, for your posts. I was trying to figure out whether there's any reason that the Wahoo app would need to be running if TR is driving the workout. Seems like the answer is no. Follow-up question: do you need to open the Wahoo app *at all*? That is, if I just go straight to TR and start my workout, will it get the power from my Quarq if that's how I had it previously set up? Or does it need to establish that connection through the Wahoo app before each ride?

As for the difference between the Vectors and TR, could this be related to different smoothing methods being used as was discussed above?

I just start TR, don't touch my IOS device except Garmin Connect App so I can auto upload my Edge510 file after each ride. So NO, I don't believe you need the Wahoo App running at all.

Could be a few things going on
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
jmuise wrote:

I have personally noticed that my Vectors report 1-5 watts higher than TR during an interval and 5-10 watts lower during recovery I have some theory's as to why, anyone experiencing the same?


I noticed similar using the Quarq at the moments I had clarity of mind (short high intensity intervals) to glance at both screens. Interesting though when I looked at some of the intervals using WKO Multi File Range Analysis the recorded data was just a smoother version of the raw Quarq data. In the end IF, TSS, NP and AP were very close to match in both workouts.

I am glad that it seems to be just a touch higher in the interval since that is the meat of the training session and I can walk away knowing I did my part for the day. :-)

I wonder if it has nothing to do with the KICKR at all, but TR trying to make sure you hit the average #'s for the interval, it takes a second of the KICKR to ramp up so TR is increasing the wattage for the remainder of the interval slightly to try and ensure you hit the target avg power, same holds true for recovery as the power takes a second to come down it starts out much higher avg than intended so TR backs off the wattage slightly so you can hit the recovery target wattage for that segment?

Just a theory.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
jmuise wrote:

I have personally noticed that my Vectors report 1-5 watts higher than TR during an interval and 5-10 watts lower during recovery I have some theory's as to why, anyone experiencing the same?


I noticed similar using the Quarq at the moments I had clarity of mind (short high intensity intervals) to glance at both screens. Interesting though when I looked at some of the intervals using WKO Multi File Range Analysis the recorded data was just a smoother version of the raw Quarq data. In the end IF, TSS, NP and AP were very close to match in both workouts.

I am glad that it seems to be just a touch higher in the interval since that is the meat of the training session and I can walk away knowing I did my part for the day. :-)

The file TR produced and the file Garmin Edge produced when analyzed in Golden cheetah had to the watt accuracy for averages, TSS and IF NP and AP. Scary similar. But the TR file was smoother as expected. '

TR and Sufferfest seem to hurt just a bit more than it used too...
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
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jmuise wrote:
TR and Sufferfest seem to hurt just a bit more than it used too...

Yep
I had to reduce the intensity a little the 4th of 4x8 intervals on Tuesday. I went just a little too much on the first three.
Maybe next week I will get it set right for my current fitness now that I am getting used to using my real FTP in TrainerRoad.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Wide Spread Beta!

Hi Guys,

I'm not a regular slowtwitcher, so wasn't aware the new feature had "leaked". The current firmware and App for the KICKR was intended for our slightly smaller offical beta group. It looks like the bulk of the functionality has been puzzled out by some serious trial and error. Sorry to put everyone through that. We have not yet implemented SRM and need to get that in before we officially release. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks. We will also document it in our SDK so other Apps can use the new feature when we release the firmware. The KICKR is directly connecting to the power meter and internally calibrating the brake to match the other power meters reported numbers. So as some have discovered, once you turn on the 3rd party control via our beta App it can be controlled successfully by Apps like Trainer Road. It will reset if you quit riding for a few minutes though, so probably more trouble than it's worth and better to wait for the "official" release. Trying to get it finished for you guys!

thanks,

Chip from Wahoo
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
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Chip,

Thanks for stopping in with the the update. Slowtwitch has always encouraged and appreciated the presence of representatives from companies involved in the sport. There are many here who would appreciate seeing you stop by occasionally to see how things are going with all things Wahoo.

Hope to see you more frequently in the future.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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While we wait for the official software release from Kickr that will allow control from an external power meter (and developers to implement the SDK) I have a working fix for inaccurate Kickrs.

I've had my original Kickr replaced, purchased the calibration kit, done countless spindowns both cold and warmed-up and no matter what, my Kickr reads about 20 watts higher than reported from both my SRM and Stages power meters.

I've noticed that the discrepancy can be lessened by pedaling through the spindown to make it artificially longer, or by adding to the weight when using the calibration kit and app. Neither method has led to a reliable and accurate solution, but it did show me that there are ways to unofficially manipulate the Kickr to get it behave a bit better. In fact, it seemed obvious that either a mechanical or software based calibration dial could have been implemented by Wahoo to allow us to adjust the Kickr's wattage to match an external meter. If the Kickr consistenty reads 20 watts high, just turn the dial until it reads correctly. Why didn't Wahoo just give us something like this?!

Well, it turns out they did. It is possible to adjust the belt tension on your Kickr and that, in turn, will adjust a Kickr's reported wattage. Now, this is not how Wahoo intended us to use the belt tension adjustment and this is a workaround they probably wouldn't officially recommend. But if you've been struggling with this as much as I have and want a real solution to the problem, follow these instructions:

FOR A KICKR THAT REPORTS WATTAGE THAT IS TOO HIGH:

First, locate and familiarize yourself with the access hole for the belt tension adjustment screw. It is located on the rear of the Kickr on the plastic casing just above the top of the handle. If you have trouble locating the hole or understanding where the adjustment screw is, you can remove the plastic casing from the drive side of the Kickr. There are two hex bolts and one tiny Phillips screw that need to be removed.

Removing the cover isn't absolutely necessary, though, as you can access the adjustment screw through the access hole. Use a 2.5 mm hex driver. If you don't remove the cover, you might have to adjust the position of the hex driver to find the screw head. Try pointing a bit down if you keep missing it.

Once you find the adjustment screw and are comfortable with adjusting it, get your Kickr going and do a spindown test. Your spindown time should be about 23-24 seconds. If it is shorter than this, turn the belt tension screw counter-clockwise. This will loosen the belt tension and allow the spindown to take more time. Keep adjusting the screw and performing spindowns until you get a number in the 23-24 second range. The reason you're doing this is that after you get your spindown in this range, you're going to tighten the tension. You don't want your tension too tight, so if you start in this range you'll most likely end up with a good result.

Once you've gotten your spindown in the 23-24 second range, say goodbye to future spindowns. This should be the last one you do from this point on and you will calibrate your Kickr to your power meter solely using the belt tension screw. If you do another spindown after the following calibration steps, you will bring your Kickr back to reading too high.

Next, use Trainer Road, the Wahoo app or whatever you're comfortable with to give you a steady wattage to help you calibrate. Choose a wattage that's not too easy, but something you can hold. Endurance to tempo pace is good.

Also, make sure your trusted power meter is functioning, zeroed-out and you have a way to read its output. You can do this with TrainerRoad (adjust the setting so it's connected to your Kickr, but shows wattage from your power meter) or using a Garmin.

Start riding at a steady 90 cadence and note the difference from your Kickr's target power and your trusted power meter's actual power. If the Kickr is reading high, get off the bike and turn the tension screw clockwise a couple of turns. Get back on the bike and you should now notice that your power meter is reading higher at the same target power. Your're working harder now, but the target power is same. Keep up with this adjustment process until the average power from your power meter matches the Kickr's target power. Note that the power will go up and down a bit (+/- 5 watts or so) as the Kickr cycles to maintain the target power, but once the average is about the same, your Kickr is now calibrated to your power meter.

At this point, make sure that your Kickr has not become louder or "screeechier" than before. This would indicate that the belt tension is too high. If so, start the process over again with your final spindown at a looser belt tension than what you started with for. Remember, once you have a calibration you are happy with, DO NOT ever do another spindown. Any future calibrations should be done only using the belt tension screw.

I haven't heard many reports of Kickrs reporting wattages that are too low, but the same process could be used to correct those errors. In that case, you'd want to start at a higher belt tension as calibration will require reducing tension after the final spindown.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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nice, very smart to check belt tension,
will try this.

Mine reads about 18-20w high consistently even after a 90min workout and I don't have a recent iphone to run the app to try the beta firmware.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [lennyk] [ In reply to ]
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krispy, thanks for the description
lenny, this might help give you a visual as well as using Krispy's guide. https://www.dropbox.com/...t%20Tension.mov?dl=0

I have not yet done this yet and was advised this by one of the Wahoo techs. My spindown has been fairly consistent near 20.
I am not sure I will do this now that I have the Quarq in control.

Here are a couple screenshots from my first ride with it in control. This is from WKO showing the Quarq recorded on the Garmin Edge comparing to how it looks recorded within TrainerRoad.

The total workout if TSS/d near 90 and IF near 0.9


Here is an interval segment using WKO Multi Range File Analysis (yellow is the Quarq as recorded on the Edge) (red is the Quarq as recorded in TrainerRoad)
Pardon the humble power numbers. I'm just a lowly lifter that like to play around recreationally on the bike. :-)


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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
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chippyhawkeye wrote:
Wide Spread Beta!


thanks,

Chip from Wahoo

Oops!...............:-) I posted this firmware update on my blog and here there other day, but I didn't start it. :-)

However, I am very glad to get this even in the Beta version and have used it successfully for the last 3 days.
Thanks for dropping by and I look forward to the real release as well as TrainerRoad adding this into their program as well.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
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chippyhawkeye wrote:
Wide Spread Beta!

Hi Guys,

I'm not a regular slowtwitcher, so wasn't aware the new feature had "leaked". The current firmware and App for the KICKR was intended for our slightly smaller offical beta group. It looks like the bulk of the functionality has been puzzled out by some serious trial and error. Sorry to put everyone through that. We have not yet implemented SRM and need to get that in before we officially release. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks. We will also document it in our SDK so other Apps can use the new feature when we release the firmware. The KICKR is directly connecting to the power meter and internally calibrating the brake to match the other power meters reported numbers. So as some have discovered, once you turn on the 3rd party control via our beta App it can be controlled successfully by Apps like Trainer Road. It will reset if you quit riding for a few minutes though, so probably more trouble than it's worth and better to wait for the "official" release. Trying to get it finished for you guys!

thanks,

Chip from Wahoo

Thanks for stopping by Chip, at least the SRM users can stop pulling out their hair knowing that SRM isn't yet supported.

I've done 3 rides on the Beta firmware using my Vectors as the external PM, I think it works great and am very appreciative of the efforts to make this happen.

Can you share any thoughts as to why during a hard interval the system will always stay 1-5 watts above the target in TR and 5-10 watts lower during a recovery segment? Is this by design or is there something I am missing, I had hinted above that maybe TR is trying to get you to hit the avg power for the internval and since it takes a second of the KICKR to ramp up during the intervals its adjusting to hit the avg, and during recovery interval it takes the kickr a second to come down TR tells the KICKR to do less to hit the avg? just spitballing, I have no idea.

Either way, this update is awesome!

Thanks
Jeff
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [jmuise] [ In reply to ]
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After reading your theory yesterday and believe, like you, that it is happening in TrainerRoad after looking more intently at the Garmin display compared to the laptop TrainerRoad display.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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Felt_Rider wrote:
After reading your theory yesterday and believe, like you, that it is happening in TrainerRoad after looking more intently at the Garmin display compared to the laptop TrainerRoad display.

The only reason I had thought it had to be TR instead of the KICKR is because how would the KICKR know what the target avg power for the segment would be. Maybe it does, but I doubt.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Krispy2014] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, I just did the belt re-tensioning,

I had upgraded to the 1.1.3.22 firmware(via Android) but I do not have an Apple device to complete with the Wahooligan app.
So my unit is not being controlled by my Quarq.

My spindowns were previously in the 20.5sec range, I removed the plastic cover to see what I was doing.
I did notice the right side of the belt had some rubbing contact and found a few bits of rubber debris but nothing to talk about.
The belt does seem to be biased to stay to the right of the pulleys even though I tried moving it left.

Loosened the 5mm bolt which locks the tensioner and then loosened the tensioner by a few turns to get 24.5 spindown.
It was much looser at this point and coasting difference is very noticeable.
Wattage difference at this point in time was about 15w.

I used a custom workout of 160w interval of a few mins to fine tune, one turn tighter brought it to about 5w
so I did another half turn and it is very close.

Will know how it works tomorrow when I do a proper workout.
I hope this works for me as I do not live in the US and it would be very difficult to get any kind of official support.

It would appear that the belt differences of tension, rubber, aging etc may need to be accounted for in the firmware,
unfortunately the power measuring gauges seem to be after the belt which may make things a little more difficult.

This is similar to how a powertap usually reads a few watts less than a crank based power meter.

L
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [lennyk] [ In reply to ]
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lennyk wrote:
Ok, I just did the belt re-tensioning,

I had upgraded to the 1.1.3.22 firmware(via Android) but I do not have an Apple device to complete with the Wahooligan app.
So my unit is not being controlled by my Quarq.

My spindowns were previously in the 20.5sec range, I removed the plastic cover to see what I was doing.
I did notice the right side of the belt had some rubbing contact and found a few bits of rubber debris but nothing to talk about.
The belt does seem to be biased to stay to the right of the pulleys even though I tried moving it left.

Loosened the 5mm bolt which locks the tensioner and then loosened the tensioner by a few turns to get 24.5 spindown.
It was much looser at this point and coasting difference is very noticeable.
Wattage difference at this point in time was about 15w.

I used a custom workout of 160w interval of a few mins to fine tune, one turn tighter brought it to about 5w
so I did another half turn and it is very close.

Will know how it works tomorrow when I do a proper workout.
I hope this works for me as I do not live in the US and it would be very difficult to get any kind of official support.

It would appear that the belt differences of tension, rubber, aging etc may need to be accounted for in the firmware,
unfortunately the power measuring gauges seem to be after the belt which may make things a little more difficult.

This is similar to how a powertap usually reads a few watts less than a crank based power meter.

L

Interesting..I haven't got the time to test this out on my kickr, but how is it with the drift now? Mine drifts from about -5 watt until 20 watt over a hard 1 hour workout.
So if I do this, will the kickr then show me very low power at the start, if I set it to give me correct power data at the end?

I can't believe this makes the drift disappear?
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [larssr] [ In reply to ]
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larssr wrote:

I can't believe this makes the drift disappear?

X2

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [chippyhawkeye] [ In reply to ]
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chippyhawkeye wrote:
Wide Spread Beta!

Hi Guys,

I'm not a regular slowtwitcher, so wasn't aware the new feature had "leaked". The current firmware and App for the KICKR was intended for our slightly smaller offical beta group. It looks like the bulk of the functionality has been puzzled out by some serious trial and error. Sorry to put everyone through that. We have not yet implemented SRM and need to get that in before we officially release. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks. We will also document it in our SDK so other Apps can use the new feature when we release the firmware. The KICKR is directly connecting to the power meter and internally calibrating the brake to match the other power meters reported numbers. So as some have discovered, once you turn on the 3rd party control via our beta App it can be controlled successfully by Apps like Trainer Road. It will reset if you quit riding for a few minutes though, so probably more trouble than it's worth and better to wait for the "official" release. Trying to get it finished for you guys!

thanks,

Chip from Wahoo

I would love to know why SRM is more difficult than the rest (I'm using SRM with my Kickr). I would have thought one Ant+ power signal looks like any other Ant+ power signal...
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [iSam] [ In reply to ]
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iSam wrote:
chippyhawkeye wrote:
Wide Spread Beta!

Hi Guys,

I'm not a regular slowtwitcher, so wasn't aware the new feature had "leaked". The current firmware and App for the KICKR was intended for our slightly smaller offical beta group. It looks like the bulk of the functionality has been puzzled out by some serious trial and error. Sorry to put everyone through that. We have not yet implemented SRM and need to get that in before we officially release. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks. We will also document it in our SDK so other Apps can use the new feature when we release the firmware. The KICKR is directly connecting to the power meter and internally calibrating the brake to match the other power meters reported numbers. So as some have discovered, once you turn on the 3rd party control via our beta App it can be controlled successfully by Apps like Trainer Road. It will reset if you quit riding for a few minutes though, so probably more trouble than it's worth and better to wait for the "official" release. Trying to get it finished for you guys!

thanks,

Chip from Wahoo


I would love to know why SRM is more difficult than the rest (I'm using SRM with my Kickr). I would have thought one Ant+ power signal looks like any other Ant+ power signal...

Just curious... What do you mean you are using the SRM with your KICKR?? Are you just using to record power using ERG mode with the KICKR?? How close is the SRM to the KICKR power?

I have an SRM too... but not not on my KICKR dedicated bike. I was thinking of adding one to that bike if the power is significantly off.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [Donzo98] [ In reply to ]
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At the moment I am just using it to record the data to my Garmin. When this firmware is released generally (and works with SRM) I will set it up so the SRM controls the ERG brake.

My SRM tends to read a little lower than the Kickr (10 watts or so) but it can vary a lot at different power levels. Generally, the Kickr reads higher, so I have offset my FTP in Trainerroad but that is a bit of a fudge solution.

I trust my SRM (it cost a crapton more than the Kickr) and am very much looking forward to that providing the control.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [iSam] [ In reply to ]
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iSam wrote:
At the moment I am just using it to record the data to my Garmin. When this firmware is released generally (and works with SRM) I will set it up so the SRM controls the ERG brake.

My SRM tends to read a little lower than the Kickr (10 watts or so) but it can vary a lot at different power levels. Generally, the Kickr reads higher, so I have offset my FTP in Trainerroad but that is a bit of a fudge solution.

I trust my SRM (it cost a crapton more than the Kickr) and am very much looking forward to that providing the control.

This is what I'm doing as well. I'm 10-15w low on the SRM vs the KICKR. So have to adjust the FTP in trainerroad up. Sometimes I'm also using the up arrow w/in trainerroad during the ride to keep it sufficiently loaded, otherwise the cadence required to get there is too high. Looking forward to the new firmware release even though it's still really just a workaround. Would prefer not to have a power meter on the bike that's on the KICKR. Otherwise I'm really pleased with the KICKR and TrainerRoad.
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Re: Controlling the Kickr via external power meter now possible [iSam] [ In reply to ]
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iSam wrote:
At the moment I am just using it to record the data to my Garmin. When this firmware is released generally (and works with SRM) I will set it up so the SRM controls the ERG brake.

My SRM tends to read a little lower than the Kickr (10 watts or so) but it can vary a lot at different power levels. Generally, the Kickr reads higher, so I have offset my FTP in Trainerroad but that is a bit of a fudge solution.

I trust my SRM (it cost a crapton more than the Kickr) and am very much looking forward to that providing the control.

I know it does... crazy expensive.

I am running 10 speed on my KICKR (older bike with DA 7900)... and a DA 7900 SRM is not that expensive anymore on the used market. I may bite the bullet... and get one. Trust me, the day I buy one, KICKR will announce they solved the inaccuracy problem :)

Currently running 11 speed DA 9000 SRM on my outdoor bike.
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