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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [helle_f] [ In reply to ]
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helle_f wrote:
I can definitely see how that can and does happen, hence why I choose to read rather than contribute, most of the time :)

Please come with the teflon wetsuit on before logging into ST and keep contributing. Nothing really sticks around here anyway. Then after your three espressos, you can hit the swim workout at full throttle! All kidding aside, unlike many sports, we're lucky to have a medium to interact with champions. Sure in many cases we will like what you are saying and in other cases we might ask some hard questions that are uncomfortable to answer. Personally I don't think you need to answer why you chose to do a race in Bahrain, or China (where was everyone asking ITU to pull triathlon out of the Beijing Olympics???) just like I don't need to answer why I might go on company business to China. The fact remains that our governments have not sanctioned most countries and international authorities that govern our industries (such as ITU in your case) say it is OK for commerce to happen in Bahrain related to triathlon. As a pro, if you don't use that opportunity, someone else will and in a competitive world, a professional in any industry has to seize the opportunities. If we were talking about human rights organizations or NGO's that's another story, but working in a commercial revenue generating side of industry, you either compete or get out. That's just how the world works.

So please keep contributing as we all learn what it is like to be in the shoes of the top athletes in the sport...

One more question....your Masters in Nutrition degree. Did this change how you approach your preparation for races and also the nutrition in racing. One of our posters, Rob Gray has done a fair amount of investigation on carbohyrdate utilization in long course racing and has modified his CHO intake in lead up to long IM events with decent success. I think perhaps I might look into this for IM racing although living half the time on the road, controlling any intake of food seems to be difficult as I have to eat whatever ends up on my plate or I can get my hands on passing through airports.
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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That makes a lot of sense, and much like Dev I really like this simple yet structured approach to training - having had a turbulent season, I've come to the conclusion myself that consistency is key, and it seems like this is the foundation of your approach. Thanks for the reply!


Also, just to pick up on something you said earlier:

Joel Filliol wrote:
FastTwitch12 - easy is driven by perceived effort primarily, not power, heart rate or pace.

Do you use this approach with all athletes, or are some guided by heart rate, power, pace etc?
From the athletes I know, it seems that a lot of age groupers struggle to reign in their intensity and train at an easy effort; instead they end up "racing" every workout. Some even get caught up in the idea that hard sessions are the only ones that count and eschew easy sessions completely. They obviously tend to get injured a lot!
Do any pros suffer from this problem as well, and do you approach them differently?

On twitter talking about Triathlon, Cycling & Sport Science - @taffytriathlete
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [TaffyTriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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TaffyTriathlete - it's best to learn how to pace via RPE - tools can help this, but calibrating the brain is the most effective long term strategy.


Pros are subject to the same problems of making the easy sessions to quick, but generally this self corrects pretty quickly under heavy training loads, which results in the easy sessions getting slower. It's being 'too fresh' that causes problems sometimes - but it's a matter of discipline in any case.


J

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel Filliol wrote:
TaffyTriathlete - it's best to learn how to pace via RPE - tools can help this, but calibrating the brain is the most effective long term strategy.


Pros are subject to the same problems of making the easy sessions to quick, but generally this self corrects pretty quickly under heavy training loads, which results in the easy sessions getting slower. It's being 'too fresh' that causes problems sometimes - but it's a matter of discipline in any case.


J

Related to this, I am sure you have seen your share of athletes rip it up in B events when they are not fully rested and tapered and still in the middle of a training block. Then for the A event, rested, tapered and first half heros, but difficulty later in the day. Is there anything you do with them to re calibrate the brain for "rested and tapered" events, because in reality if an athlete is consistent in her training, it is tough to ever be truly rested for hard workouts. As such, A events may be the only time the experience the "new calibration". That may only be a few times per year.
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev - I don't find this kind of calibration a problem - if you can pace and manage yourself tired you can probably do the same fresh. Athletes who have the problems you described have not got the loading right into the race. The problems being too fresh have to do with being able to dig too deep in some sessions, therefore affecting following sessions, and consistency over the week (single workout heros). A general workload fatigue tends to 'protect' the athlete from being able to hurt themselves in this way.

J

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Do you ever have athletes bike 2x per day
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [FastTwitch12] [ In reply to ]
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FastTwitch12 - never have done the 2x bike per day.

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Joel,

to what extent do you consider yourself a 'data guy' ?

I suspect you use TP or Raceday or something like that.
Is it simply to communicate workouts, feedback, schedule or do you dive into the data ?

Are you a PMC/CTL/tsb believer ? Do you even look at it ?

What does an athlete dashboard look like ?

If you are not a data guy, do you find some of your athletes are more than you ? Is Helle ?
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel Filliol wrote:
FastTwitch12 - never have done the 2x bike per day.

Hey Joel, many of us often do the 2x bike per day because we bike commute to work and extend one ride to add in our "main workout" and use the other ride for transportation/recovery/consistency. I think this would work in the context you are suggesting, its just that one bike is the main workout, the other one is filler and better than "time in a car/train/bus".
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag - I use data, power, GPS, do race analysis on the files, schedule some sessions with power and pace ranges, review it, and feedback on it. I look at the PMC, but don't use it for planning. We have some athletes more interested than others in reviewing power and pace. With Helle we review files and races together. That said I don't consider myself a 'data guy', more of a 'human guy' because that is what effective coaching is about. The vast majority of the 'problems' I have to solve as a coach are psychology related, not physiology related.

Athlete 'dashboards' include all the power stuff, plus volume ranges in each sport.


J

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel, really enjoying your posts.

You quote Lydiard on your site and your answers seem in the spirit of what he would say. For example, Arthur would say that you couldn't just tell someone to do 20 X something because the athlete was likely to do overdo it and that it was better if the coach/athlete stopped the workout when they had had enough.

Likewise, I was too tired to hurt myself while I running over 100 miles a week when I was doing it week after week. The most dangerous time for me was when I was around 40-60 miles a week and fresh enough to hurt myself.

I'm a 60 yr old triathlete who likes to train. 6' and 145lbs. My first goal is health and racing goals are sprints and Olympic distance. My routine is like this and I'll do it indoor or outdoor rather than miss a day.

Monday brick: 60 min bike as I feel, 30 min of jogging and running drills on grass field to open and refresh legs, 40 minutes of swim varying distance and intervals.

Tuesday recovery: 60 min or more swim, 10 min row (seems to help lower back), 30 to 50 min of weight lifting for feedback, muscle balance between opposing muscle groups and keep shoulders healthy.

Weds brick: like Monday; yet, I run hills to maintain some ability to run uphill and downhill.

Thursday recovery: like Tuesday.

Friday brick: like Monday; yet, I run a 5K time trial on a treadmill for feedback.

Saturday brick:
Summer: 800yd or 1.5K lake swim, 10 mile or 18mile bike, 5K or 10K steady run.
Off season: 30-90min bike, 30-60 steady min run, 20-40 min swim.

Sunday recovery: like Tuesday. I'll also vary the weights on a given workout to be light, medium or heavy and adjust the reps accordingly.

If I need more recovery, I back off the effort and remind myself that it's only training, that I'm just out to get information and this is not a life or death workout.

To taper I would just skip a brick or two and just do some sharpening work to make sure that I have the coordination to match fitness and freshness.

How far off am I from what you would have me do? Advice?

My apologies for making this "all about me"; yet maybe others can learn from what I'm doing wrong too. Thank you in advance for your reply.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, thanks and your words in that first part. They are spot on.

Nutrition: my Masters in Human Nutrition was completed whilst not being fully committed to making triathlon a profession. My study was the most important thing to me at that time. This meant when fully committing to making triathlon my full-time profession I carried my knowledge of nutrition with me. Therefore I haven't knowingly opted for a specific nutritional approach. I have more used myself as a guinea pig so that I have found out what works and doesn't work for me fx. Fasting workouts, energy intake during long rides, recovery foods, electrolyte or salt intake are all things, among others, that I have played with and gained an understanding of what the pros and cons of it are. The fact that I have my degree in Human Nutrition allows me to really know the positives and negatives of correct/incorrect nutrition, both as a lifestyle but now also in terms of its effects in high performance sport. My bachelor degree was in sports science so naturally I was able to combine and apply my knowledge in both areas to compliment each other. It is one thing to be a nutritionist but it is another thing to understand the impact sport has on your physiology and nutrition can support this.

Up until February 2013 I was a sole ITU racer so my need to put significant emphasis on race day nutrition was minimal. That said nutritional from a lifestyle/day-to-day basis is the bread and butter for performance consistency but more so for a stable and healthy weight. As I now put focus on longer events race day nutrition has required a little more focus, but still not overthought. I'm still looking at my intake requirements for races between 4 - 4.5 hours, so still not massively long. There definitely does need to be different approaches for IRONMAN/full distance events. It's interesting that Rob has done such study and it's great that the area is given focus. My biggest advice is always to try and keep the body in a stable and consistent eating pattern, especially if it is responding well to the nutritional approaches on a day-to-day basis. There is absolutely no denying that nutrition can break a race, but nutrition will not be what wins you the race.

Balance and consistency is showing time and time again to be the biggest % in terms of winningest approach to nutrition. We should approach nutrition on a person by person case but balance and consistency should always be the end goal.


London 2012 Olympian : 6 x IRONMAN 70.3 Winner : 2014 Challenge Bahrain Champion : 2014 Hy-Vee 5150 Champion : Master of Human Nutrition - Twitter: @helle_f Facebook: /helletri Web: hellefrederiksen.com

Sponsors: Uplace-BMC Pro Triathlon - Nike - Sands Beach Active - NormaTec - Bragi - Hotbox Roasters
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT - I wouldn't be able to answer in any detail without asking questions and understanding the full picture of where you are coming from.


However I can make a couple general comments:


For health - sure, you have variety, frequency and strength, with a low stress approach.


For performance - longer steady run, longer bike w/ hills, replace 5km TT with fartlek with range of paces 2-3 weeks out of 4.


For taper - Friday easier, same volume.


J.

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel,

Thank you for improving that schedule! Having read your changes, they make even more sense compared to what I was doing. Special thanks on the taper advice. Wish you and your athletes the best.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Question from IT and your response got my attention. This is a great thread. I am 67 and in great health with solid base. No problem with 16 to 20 hours a week. Have done last two races a hair over 14 hours and trying to get to 13. Very little literature for old guys. How do you alter your approach for old farts?

KQ strategy - Outlive the competition
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag and TaffyTriathlete: I wrote an article back in May of this year about 'data' and my use of it, you may be able to get something out of it and I'm pretty sure JF thinks in a similar way - http://www.hellefrederiksen.com/become-racer-hard-work-trumps-data/


London 2012 Olympian : 6 x IRONMAN 70.3 Winner : 2014 Challenge Bahrain Champion : 2014 Hy-Vee 5150 Champion : Master of Human Nutrition - Twitter: @helle_f Facebook: /helletri Web: hellefrederiksen.com

Sponsors: Uplace-BMC Pro Triathlon - Nike - Sands Beach Active - NormaTec - Bragi - Hotbox Roasters
Last edited by: helle_f: Dec 21, 14 7:55
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [helle_f] [ In reply to ]
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helle_f wrote:
marcag and TaffyTriathlete: I wrote an article back in May of this year about 'data' and my use of it, you may be able to get something out of it and I'm pretty sure JF thinks in a similar way - http://www.hellefrederiksen.com/become-racer-hard-work-trumps-data/

Thanks, great article and very nice site. Lots of good stuff !
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Ron from IN] [ In reply to ]
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Ron from IN - my view for older athletes is to allow for more recovery time between intensive sessions, and make those types of sessions more strength based - builds/hills/progressions/tempos. So younger athletes might do 2-3 intensive sessions per sport per week, older athletes would do 1-2, with the remainder at easy/basic paces.


J.

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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [helle_f] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Helle,
Do you eat the same foods most days? what would your typical daily diet be?
Thank you, I'm enjoying reading your posts :)
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks again for your insights Joel - very interesting.

You mentioned that it's hard to include a lot of over-threshold work due to the overall workload that Helle & other athletes are maintaining week-in-week-out...how does this work for your ITU athletes? I'd imagine that the over-threshold and sprint work is much more important for them to be able to stay with the pack when surges occur...how do you fit this work into their plans? Do they work on a lower overall volume so that more intense sessions can be included without impacting overall workload? And do they do a larger number of intense sessions in total?

On twitter talking about Triathlon, Cycling & Sport Science - @taffytriathlete
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [TaffyTriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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TaffyTriathlete - for any ITU athletes, the basic fundamental conditioning underpins the ability to perform the specific demands of the race. Many prioritise the specific demands over building and maintaining the fundamentals. We need much less race specific work than most athletes think. So the answer is not to reduce the overall volume to perform the intensive work, it's more the opposite - intensive work in the context of 'high' overall volume is what underpins success.


J.

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JoelFilliol.com - check out the Real Coaching Podcast
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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Joel Filliol wrote:
Many prioritise the specific demands over building and maintaining the fundamentals.

I think this probably describes every age group athlete I know! (Including myself, I'm sad to say!)

I'm gonna write this wisdom down somewhere and remind myself of it every time I think I'm not doing enough speedwork...

On twitter talking about Triathlon, Cycling & Sport Science - @taffytriathlete
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [shannonc] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Shannon,

I try and eat the same foods on a weekly basis rather than a daily basis. Day to day can look similar but not identical, or at least I try not to make each day identical. It is important that we maintain variety in our approach to eating on a daily basis.

A weekly food shop would contain white fish, salmon and chicken as meats. A mass range of vegetables and salad. Whole grain bread. Shed loads of yoghurt (Greek and organic), granola, muesli.

I wrote these two articles in 2013 regarding my approach to food and what I eat:

How I train and what I eat... - http://www.hellefrederiksen.com/...rain-and-what-i-eat/

What I eat and my approach to food - http://www.hellefrederiksen.com/...my-approach-to-food/

I hope this helps a little.


London 2012 Olympian : 6 x IRONMAN 70.3 Winner : 2014 Challenge Bahrain Champion : 2014 Hy-Vee 5150 Champion : Master of Human Nutrition - Twitter: @helle_f Facebook: /helletri Web: hellefrederiksen.com

Sponsors: Uplace-BMC Pro Triathlon - Nike - Sands Beach Active - NormaTec - Bragi - Hotbox Roasters
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [Joel Filliol] [ In reply to ]
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thanks again Joel,

on the JFTracing site there is a picture of David doing some form of testing

Is formal testing something you do with your elites ?
If so, can you give an example of how it changed their training more than just measuring improvement.
Last edited by: marcag: Dec 22, 14 4:29
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Re: Winning Challenge Bahrain and non-draft success - AUA [marcag] [ In reply to ]
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marcag - the pic of David is just a profile picture - we don't actually do any lab testing or indeed performance testing of any type with our athletes.


J.

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