Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [rhys] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It wasnt that long ago that pro athletes rec'd complimentary entry fees to races. Rev 3 did that early on to entice pros to come to their races. If I recall correctly it was a bit ad-hoc with the IM branded races- where some race directors did comp pro athletes and others didnt. I thought the $800 fee was a clever way to make the pros feel special - but I always thought that pros should be comp'd because I was looking to see them at the races! Whether as a spectator or racer. They were a simple loss leader.

Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tri4balance] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not true. SOME pro athletes got complimentary registration, not all.

Graham would never have compd a race for me if I took a pro card in 2004 or 2007 the 2 yrs I met the rediculously easy (at the time not sure in present) 10hr threshold. Yes, he compd Lisa Bentley but she won his races.

So for 90% of the pros (those who have no shot of winning Hawaii) the new system is better. So in fact, WTC does have a bridge for up & comers. $800 annual reg fee. Race all u want!

Again. Can explain numbers to suit the debate.

I think people are laying into WTC here unnecessarily. They are onto a path how to promote their business via pros while offering them a bridge to exposure in doing so. No one is entitled to make a living. You gotta earn a living. Sure WTC can do better but they could do way worse. And it's a free market with Challenge expanding all the time. Lots of opportunity.

I think we agree room for improvement but I see at least good steps being taken. I'm probably in minority on ST though with this opinion

@rhyspencer
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
For me the question is how to get more price money for the pros?

************************
#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [CruseVegas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
WTC is answering that question by trying to improve the media/professionalism of it's product.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
WTC is answering that question by trying to improve the media/professionalism of it's product.

A lot of the pro's are just a mess in regards to developing a business model for their profession.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
See my response: WTC is TRYING to help with that.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [rhys] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I agree that how the $800/year fee is perceived is all about spin and individual perceptions of value. I have no doubt that some pros join the club simply to get what amounts to a 50% discount on their 3 ironman races per year. Others pay to join the club because, well, it's kinda cool to be part of an exclusive club.

And that allure of joining an exclusive club is a huge value to wtc. It's some of what inspires the top 10% of age groupers to race--maybe one day they too can join the club. Sometimes I think that allure is an even bigger value to wtc than what the top pros do.

I used to live near a ski hill that sold a season pass discounted for locals. In addition to unlimited skiing, it also gave perks beyond the normal season pass. Locals LOVED that pass because it was cool to be in the LOCALS club. A lot of non locals thought it was all kind of silly, because they thought the ski hill was way overrated. But it didn't matter because the locals were happy and the ski hill made money.

That's sort of what the wtc pro membership is.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.

Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Best thing a young 20ish pro can do is to swim their ass off and try and make one of the French GP or German domestique itu teams and race draft legal every weekend in the summer.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
Best thing a young 20ish pro can do is to swim their ass off and try and make one of the French GP or German domestique itu teams and race draft legal every weekend in the summer.

QFT! But instead we get AG'ers who win their AG a few times, and maybe finish top 5 OA amateur at age 30 and they are so PRO baby!

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.

Halvard, you keep trying to lump in long distance triathlon with XC skiing and keep saying how awesome a job they do in XC skiing. What I will say is that there are a lot more athletes able to make a living worldwide off long distance triathlon than XC skiing. And imagine if there was a worldwide XC ski series that was 75K skate followed by 75K classic. That should be around 8 hours for the top guys, maybe 9 hours. Now go ahead and package that up under the FIS umbrella and let's see how much TV interest that garners. No one would watch that race, because somwhere into the the classic leg, the final results will be firmed up 2-3 hours before he finish line. Then it will be a race of attrition. Sound famliar? Well, that's pretty well what happens in an Ironman...somewhere between 6-7 hours in, we pretty well know the final results. In rare cases the podium materialized early in the 8th hour.

Other sports are more easily able to package up their story for live media. For now, the "audience" for long distance triathlon are age groupers that are in the race. The "tickets" for the stadium are our entry fees. The live coverage is only watched by eyeballs who can't be in the race today, but will be in another race tomorrow, but overall the general sporting audience does not care to follow these live. I "THINK" the angle is packaging up the entire story in snippets for the media, showcasing the superhuman feats and the awesomeness of the pros...and that every man can be a part of the show, and aspire to be like the pros. How do we convert this into getting Credit Suisse, Goldman Sach's, Apple or Mercedes Benz to hope into our game? There are very deep pockets outside of the tri world that we collectively need to access to grow this sport. 100 pros chasing sponsorship from Cervelo or Specialized is just a bunch of guys fighting over the crumbs of a tiny pie. How do our pros get access to the large pie if we bring Apple, or Vodaphone into this game. Our sport is performance, oriented. We're about as PerformancexEndurance as you can get. In the electronics field, we're always trying for better endurance and superior performance. Triathlon delivers on that. So how do we get access to Lenovo or Reliance's marketing budgets?

Long course triathlon has all the attributes that performance oriented corporations want for their products and their employees. There has to be a better way to align our sport to the missions of these big companies. The pros are a key part of that packaging. Age groupers are in lots of positions of power to help open budgets. How do we connect the dotted lines. I THINK this is the nut that both WTC and Pros would benefit by cracking. Bless the guys at GoPro for being title sponsor of Kona, But I'd rather have Intel sponsoring Kona.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Halvard wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.


Halvard, you keep trying to lump in long distance triathlon with XC skiing and keep saying how awesome a job they do in XC skiing. What I will say is that there are a lot more athletes able to make a living worldwide off long distance triathlon than XC skiing. And imagine if there was a worldwide XC ski series that was 75K skate followed by 75K classic. That should be around 8 hours for the top guys, maybe 9 hours. Now go ahead and package that up under the FIS umbrella and let's see how much TV interest that garners. No one would watch that race, because somwhere into the the classic leg, the final results will be firmed up 2-3 hours before he finish line. Then it will be a race of attrition. Sound famliar? Well, that's pretty well what happens in an Ironman...somewhere between 6-7 hours in, we pretty well know the final results. In rare cases the podium materialized early in the 8th hour.

Other sports are more easily able to package up their story for live media. For now, the "audience" for long distance triathlon are age groupers that are in the race. The "tickets" for the stadium are our entry fees. The live coverage is only watched by eyeballs who can't be in the race today, but will be in another race tomorrow, but overall the general sporting audience does not care to follow these live. I "THINK" the angle is packaging up the entire story in snippets for the media, showcasing the superhuman feats and the awesomeness of the pros...and that every man can be a part of the show, and aspire to be like the pros. How do we convert this into getting Credit Suisse, Goldman Sach's, Apple or Mercedes Benz to hope into our game? There are very deep pockets outside of the tri world that we collectively need to access to grow this sport. 100 pros chasing sponsorship from Cervelo or Specialized is just a bunch of guys fighting over the crumbs of a tiny pie. How do our pros get access to the large pie if we bring Apple, or Vodaphone into this game. Our sport is performance, oriented. We're about as PerformancexEndurance as you can get. In the electronics field, we're always trying for better endurance and superior performance. Triathlon delivers on that. So how do we get access to Lenovo or Reliance's marketing budgets?

Long course triathlon has all the attributes that performance oriented corporations want for their products and their employees. There has to be a better way to align our sport to the missions of these big companies. The pros are a key part of that packaging. Age groupers are in lots of positions of power to help open budgets. How do we connect the dotted lines. I THINK this is the nut that both WTC and Pros would benefit by cracking. Bless the guys at GoPro for being title sponsor of Kona, But I'd rather have Intel sponsoring Kona.


Why do I use biathlon and cross country skiing as example because they have a system that works. And you also have long distance cross country skiing. And guess what, all events are on TV and/or streamed live. What a concept.

I want to see a world cup system in long distance triathlon. But of course not over the full distance. Only people that do not respect the health of athletes want them to race a full distance race more than once or maximum twice a year.

But again I do not think anything will happen in long distance triathlon. When you can have a world championship in 2014 without streaming the sport is where other endurance sports were in the 70s. Oh wait, those races were live on TV.

I am a happy buyer of the ITU pass. I can enjoy high quality racing with the best in the world live several time a year. And for a great price.
I am still searching for a video from the 70.3 world championship.

But my dad told me that the world championship in xc-skiing in Falun in 1974, that is 40 years ago was live.....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpilKqr3890


Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So just so I can get some understanding.

Your talking about XC skiing in the Nordic countries right? I'm assuming that's one of the "bigger" sports for those countries? Triathlon in N. America is like 21st in ranking of importance tv/media coverage behind awesome sports like competitive eating and poker. So when you talk about XC skiing being "live" in your country, there has never been even an inkling of care for XC sking here in the States from an media standpoint.

ETA: Here in the US, we have nearly 8 hours of live coverage on the weekend for the roughly the top 5ish sports in the US (football, baseball, basketball, college fball, college bball).

So good for you that XC skiing is live in potential a few European countries, they certainly aren't live here in the States. So it's kinda tic for tac.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 27, 14 18:32
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wonder if the opportunity pros' to leverage off the "platform" WTC is talking about will be limited. It makes good business sense for WTC to sew up all the sponsorship dollars direct to WTC rather than build up the profile of the pros in their own right. The pros need to decide if they believe that any significant amount of the sponsorship dollars funnelled to WTC will filter down to the pros. If not, good luck to pros (other than perhaps half a dozen or so) making a living out of prize money from WTC races. Rather than bitching about WTC and then going back for more disrespect, vote with your feet. If enough of you do this, the sponsors (or at least the ones that you will want to work with anyway) will follow.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Halvard wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.


Halvard, you keep trying to lump in long distance triathlon with XC skiing and keep saying how awesome a job they do in XC skiing. What I will say is that there are a lot more athletes able to make a living worldwide off long distance triathlon than XC skiing. And imagine if there was a worldwide XC ski series that was 75K skate followed by 75K classic. That should be around 8 hours for the top guys, maybe 9 hours. Now go ahead and package that up under the FIS umbrella and let's see how much TV interest that garners. No one would watch that race, because somwhere into the the classic leg, the final results will be firmed up 2-3 hours before he finish line. Then it will be a race of attrition. Sound famliar? Well, that's pretty well what happens in an Ironman...somewhere between 6-7 hours in, we pretty well know the final results. In rare cases the podium materialized early in the 8th hour.

Other sports are more easily able to package up their story for live media. For now, the "audience" for long distance triathlon are age groupers that are in the race. The "tickets" for the stadium are our entry fees. The live coverage is only watched by eyeballs who can't be in the race today, but will be in another race tomorrow, but overall the general sporting audience does not care to follow these live. I "THINK" the angle is packaging up the entire story in snippets for the media, showcasing the superhuman feats and the awesomeness of the pros...and that every man can be a part of the show, and aspire to be like the pros. How do we convert this into getting Credit Suisse, Goldman Sach's, Apple or Mercedes Benz to hope into our game? There are very deep pockets outside of the tri world that we collectively need to access to grow this sport. 100 pros chasing sponsorship from Cervelo or Specialized is just a bunch of guys fighting over the crumbs of a tiny pie. How do our pros get access to the large pie if we bring Apple, or Vodaphone into this game. Our sport is performance, oriented. We're about as PerformancexEndurance as you can get. In the electronics field, we're always trying for better endurance and superior performance. Triathlon delivers on that. So how do we get access to Lenovo or Reliance's marketing budgets?

Long course triathlon has all the attributes that performance oriented corporations want for their products and their employees. There has to be a better way to align our sport to the missions of these big companies. The pros are a key part of that packaging. Age groupers are in lots of positions of power to help open budgets. How do we connect the dotted lines. I THINK this is the nut that both WTC and Pros would benefit by cracking. Bless the guys at GoPro for being title sponsor of Kona, But I'd rather have Intel sponsoring Kona.


Why do I use biathlon and cross country skiing as example because they have a system that works. And you also have long distance cross country skiing. And guess what, all events are on TV and/or streamed live. What a concept.

I want to see a world cup system in long distance triathlon. But of course not over the full distance. Only people that do not respect the health of athletes want them to race a full distance race more than once or maximum twice a year.

But again I do not think anything will happen in long distance triathlon. When you can have a world championship in 2014 without streaming the sport is where other endurance sports were in the 70s. Oh wait, those races were live on TV.

I am a happy buyer of the ITU pass. I can enjoy high quality racing with the best in the world live several time a year. And for a great price.
I am still searching for a video from the 70.3 world championship.

But my dad told me that the world championship in xc-skiing in Falun in 1974, that is 40 years ago was live.....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpilKqr3890



By purchasing the ITU pass you are agreeing with me exactly why XC skiing also works as a spectator sport at the elite level. Tight loops, multiple times, exciting head to head action. We both agree that adding a super sprint version to triathlon (like 200-400m swim, 2-4K bike, 500-1000m run with multiple rounds) would be perfect for TV. There are no long distance XC ski races that last for 8 hours. Exactly zero. In triathlon we have a worldwide series of >60 events that last 8 hours or more between WTC, Challenge and Independent events.

8 hours cannot be interesting to anyone but the most die hard like ourselves on this forum. Even a 4 hour half IM distance is ridiculous in terms of attention span. So saying that coverage works for XC skiing totally disregards 2 things:

  1. In more than 1 country in Northern Europe, XC skiing is the number 1 sport. In Canada, it is something like number 15. In the US, probably number 50
  2. 8 hours of any sport is not something that is going to fly on main stream live TV. There is a reason why the IPL went to 20/20 format (if you don't know what it is, read up and follow the money) vs 50/50 format....league was valued at $3.03B in only its 6th season: http://en.wikipedia.org/...ndian_Premier_League
  3. 2 hours is about the max you can package up live....3 hours is the stretch. Les MacDonald got that when he got triathlon into the Olympics (or if I recall correctly he was told to make sure the format did not exceed the marathon which was already too long for TV).



So saying that XC skiing is successful and Long Course triathlon is not is somewhat wrong. If you look at worldwide participation of in Long Course triathlon it covers more countries and participation than the ultra niche sport of XC skiing done my barely 15-20 countries (and its big in around 5-6 of those countries only). And if XC skiing had an 8 hour event, then you could come over here and tell us how everyone is totally pumped about the 8 hour XC ski events and its getting all day live coverage and people are shutting down at work to watch it. But you're comparing apples and oranges.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
So just so I can get some understanding.

Your talking about XC skiing in the Nordic countries right? I'm assuming that's one of the "bigger" sports for those countries? Triathlon in N. America is like 21st in ranking of importance tv/media coverage behind awesome sports like competitive eating and poker. So when you talk about XC skiing being "live" in your country, there has never been even an inkling of care for XC sking here in the States from an media standpoint.

ETA: Here in the US, we have nearly 8 hours of live coverage on the weekend for the roughly the top 5ish sports in the US (football, baseball, basketball, college fball, college bball).

So good for you that XC skiing is live in potential a few European countries, they certainly aren't live here in the States. So it's kinda tic for tac.

You will find cross country skiing and biathlon on Eurosport all over Europe both in English and in local lanuage. Then several countries also broadcast the same events.
The largest market for biathlon is Germany. I think a country with 80 millions is quite a big market. They even have show biathlon races indoor with 50,000 spectators.

Since long distance triathlon is a summer sport the market should be a lot larger. Still the 70.3 world championship was text only. And this is 2014.

I find it interesting that small sports like biathlon and cross country skiing can be live all over Europe every weekend all winter long. But you cannot even stream a 70.3 world championship.

But again, people seams happy with today's situation in long distance triathlon. I guess it is more fun for many people to follow text updates than live pictures.......
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So your essentially saying xc skiing is a very popular sport in Europe during the winter?


Here in the states triathlon ranks about 21st in media popularity for sports. So the solution I suggest is get your Eurosport guys to show up and do the races and broadcast them to Europe and maybe us markets buy the feed as well.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
Halvard wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Halvard wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Halvard wrote:

In other endurance sports the event organizer has to provide hotel, food and transportation at the race location (not to the location). I know that in cross country skiing the organizer has to provide room with three meals at a rate of USD 100 per day, also the top 30 get their room for free. Same with Swix Ski Classics.

What do you get of support from WTC?


I'm glad Brooks chimed in as I had a post about my short ITU career and support. Basically none from USAT outside of a uniform for a World Cup. And maybe some hotel help from ITU at 2 of the World Cups I races. That was 8 years ago, my memory is fuzzy. When Amy and I raced Long Course worlds in 2007, a small travel stipend was offered by USAT. For non-draft ITU World championship events now the only USAT funding is performance (podium) based...Long course, winter tri, cross tri, etc.

With WTC and support, Amy and I ask. It is that simple. Whether you call it support or compensation we ask for it when we register and if we are asked to participate in a non-mandatory WTC race weekend event. Hotel/travel support, there isn't really any official policy to my knowledge. At one time there was some support for the top-10 ranked athletes racing in Kona. I don't know if it was a set amount per athlete or if it was graduated based on ranking. If there is a policy it is 'case by case' or rather 'race by race' basis. The short answer to your question is that there is no support for the largest majority of the pro field.

Rev3 was kind of the same. You have to ask.

Per Jordan's post way up in this thread relating to the 'volunteer' requirement of pros. I haven't yet developed my opinion on the additional requirements placed on 'World Championship' athletes. On one hand, I believe that the opportunity for combined marketing by the professionals and WTC is a good step in the right direction...something that maybe should have been done long ago. On the other hand, I think that if these are truly the 'World Championship' athletes then the athletes 'time' should be compensated.


Thanks for answer.
I know founding to endurance sports are quite differently in different countries, but triathlon as all other sports are global so we have to look at more than the USA.
What I struggle to see in long distance triathlon, that I see in other endurance sports are an attempt to bring the sport up to date.
Other sports have world cups started in the early 80s. They have a media present. But most of all a structure, a platform making it easy to build a sport around.

This is a problem for long distance triathlon. But I also think this is a result of what long distance triathlon and people around it have wanted. They always wanted to be different and they are. Now you have a sport that has not developed on the top level when it come to structure and media. While all other endurance sports have.


Halvard, you keep trying to lump in long distance triathlon with XC skiing and keep saying how awesome a job they do in XC skiing. What I will say is that there are a lot more athletes able to make a living worldwide off long distance triathlon than XC skiing. And imagine if there was a worldwide XC ski series that was 75K skate followed by 75K classic. That should be around 8 hours for the top guys, maybe 9 hours. Now go ahead and package that up under the FIS umbrella and let's see how much TV interest that garners. No one would watch that race, because somwhere into the the classic leg, the final results will be firmed up 2-3 hours before he finish line. Then it will be a race of attrition. Sound famliar? Well, that's pretty well what happens in an Ironman...somewhere between 6-7 hours in, we pretty well know the final results. In rare cases the podium materialized early in the 8th hour.

Other sports are more easily able to package up their story for live media. For now, the "audience" for long distance triathlon are age groupers that are in the race. The "tickets" for the stadium are our entry fees. The live coverage is only watched by eyeballs who can't be in the race today, but will be in another race tomorrow, but overall the general sporting audience does not care to follow these live. I "THINK" the angle is packaging up the entire story in snippets for the media, showcasing the superhuman feats and the awesomeness of the pros...and that every man can be a part of the show, and aspire to be like the pros. How do we convert this into getting Credit Suisse, Goldman Sach's, Apple or Mercedes Benz to hope into our game? There are very deep pockets outside of the tri world that we collectively need to access to grow this sport. 100 pros chasing sponsorship from Cervelo or Specialized is just a bunch of guys fighting over the crumbs of a tiny pie. How do our pros get access to the large pie if we bring Apple, or Vodaphone into this game. Our sport is performance, oriented. We're about as PerformancexEndurance as you can get. In the electronics field, we're always trying for better endurance and superior performance. Triathlon delivers on that. So how do we get access to Lenovo or Reliance's marketing budgets?

Long course triathlon has all the attributes that performance oriented corporations want for their products and their employees. There has to be a better way to align our sport to the missions of these big companies. The pros are a key part of that packaging. Age groupers are in lots of positions of power to help open budgets. How do we connect the dotted lines. I THINK this is the nut that both WTC and Pros would benefit by cracking. Bless the guys at GoPro for being title sponsor of Kona, But I'd rather have Intel sponsoring Kona.


Why do I use biathlon and cross country skiing as example because they have a system that works. And you also have long distance cross country skiing. And guess what, all events are on TV and/or streamed live. What a concept.

I want to see a world cup system in long distance triathlon. But of course not over the full distance. Only people that do not respect the health of athletes want them to race a full distance race more than once or maximum twice a year.

But again I do not think anything will happen in long distance triathlon. When you can have a world championship in 2014 without streaming the sport is where other endurance sports were in the 70s. Oh wait, those races were live on TV.

I am a happy buyer of the ITU pass. I can enjoy high quality racing with the best in the world live several time a year. And for a great price.
I am still searching for a video from the 70.3 world championship.

But my dad told me that the world championship in xc-skiing in Falun in 1974, that is 40 years ago was live.....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpilKqr3890



By purchasing the ITU pass you are agreeing with me exactly why XC skiing also works as a spectator sport at the elite level. Tight loops, multiple times, exciting head to head action. We both agree that adding a super sprint version to triathlon (like 200-400m swim, 2-4K bike, 500-1000m run with multiple rounds) would be perfect for TV. There are no long distance XC ski races that last for 8 hours. Exactly zero. In triathlon we have a worldwide series of >60 events that last 8 hours or more between WTC, Challenge and Independent events.

8 hours cannot be interesting to anyone but the most die hard like ourselves on this forum. Even a 4 hour half IM distance is ridiculous in terms of attention span. So saying that coverage works for XC skiing totally disregards 2 things:


  1. In more than 1 country in Northern Europe, XC skiing is the number 1 sport. In Canada, it is something like number 15. In the US, probably number 50
  2. 8 hours of any sport is not something that is going to fly on main stream live TV. There is a reason why the IPL went to 20/20 format (if you don't know what it is, read up and follow the money) vs 50/50 format....league was valued at $3.03B in only its 6th season: http://en.wikipedia.org/...ndian_Premier_League
  3. 2 hours is about the max you can package up live....3 hours is the stretch. Les MacDonald got that when he got triathlon into the Olympics (or if I recall correctly he was told to make sure the format did not exceed the marathon which was already too long for TV).



So saying that XC skiing is successful and Long Course triathlon is not is somewhat wrong. If you look at worldwide participation of in Long Course triathlon it covers more countries and participation than the ultra niche sport of XC skiing done my barely 15-20 countries (and its big in around 5-6 of those countries only). And if XC skiing had an 8 hour event, then you could come over here and tell us how everyone is totally pumped about the 8 hour XC ski events and its getting all day live coverage and people are shutting down at work to watch it. But you're comparing apples and oranges.


Of course triathlon has more participants. It is a summer sport and most countries have no snow. But why are winter sports live on Eurosport while long distance triathlon has text updates. Since the market is bigger, why is the coverage lagging small sports. That does not make any sense.

The winner of Vasaloppet used 4.14. The race was broadcast live in several countries and of course live over the Internet.
The WTC/Ironman 70.3 world championship had text updates, even though the competition had never seen better athletes.

Why are you jumping to full distance? 70.3 takes as long as cycling or long distance xc-skiing.

But after what I understand you think today's situation is perfect for the pros. Well I disagree.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But why are winter sports live on Eurosport while long distance triathlon has text updates.

----------

Because the governing company of the world championship is an American based company and in America, triathlon has zero media appeal. So your essentially talking about NBA basketball for comparison to your European counterpart. So since you keep pushing this international brand, go talk to eurosport about broadcasting these events. WTC already admitted their mistake about the text only updates and in the past at Vegas, they had live video feed updates.

So I suggest you get behind your European friends to push for it to be broadcast in Europe only at this current time, unless you want to wait 6 weeks after the race and see the recap that will be shown soon.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: BDoughtie: Sep 27, 14 20:15
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
First, can we stop quoting the entire thread in every post.

Second, you are looking at apples and oranges. You have been given numerous reasons why skiing is televised and triathlon isn't. Triathlon has no real market to sustain live tv coverage in North America. If advertisers wanted to pay for it, we would see it on TV.

You have a hard time looking outside your cultural upbringing. Don't forget that many people on this forum have diverse backgrounds and understand what other sports are doing. I've spent close to 20 yrs in xc skiing, worked at Olympic Games, world cups, world juniors, etc. I know what goes into a FIS race and the money that changes hands. I know what athletes are making in different countries. Skiing isn't anywhere near as plush as you make it seem. A significant number of World Cup skiers make a living because of government programs that pay them as police or military.

But, if you think Europe is the prime market, get it started and reap the benefits. Must be lots if money for the taking.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Whilst what you say is true - no one is tuning in for a 8 hours race - though people tune in for the 2 weeks of Paris Dakar....

The issue here is that in almost any other sport, it is the governing body that puts on the world championship, here it is a for profit corporation.

there's nothing wrong with being for profit or a corporation, but in general, most sporting governing bodies are interested, not matter in how twisted away, the development of their sport first, profit second, here we have the reverse, any drivers WTC implement, are not for the betterment of the sport, but the betterment of their bottom line and that is a fundamental difference.
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Except I don't think who actually owns the race is the reason why it's lacking media coverage. I think the fact that it's a freaking 8 hour long boring race and has zero appeal. Go look at the ITU World Champs that happened last weekend, they had zero live coverage other than the same type of live texting.

Whether it's WTC or ITU who runs the world championship, neither are getting the race on bigger media forums.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [atasic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
atasic wrote:
I love the censorship part. Much like the rest of corporate America, WTC makes communist look like amateurs.

It's so interesting how many American's have such disdain for corporate America, yet love receiving a paycheck. But, I'm also viewing this thru the lens of an economist, where corporate America is the engine to our great country. Also your comparison to communism is off target. Communist don't have choices. Employees, including pro triathletes, do have choices.

_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.
Quote Reply

Prev Next