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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kcb203] [ In reply to ]
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+1


The cutoff should remain 17 hours, these guys are EVERY bit a part of the Ironman race, just as much as Crowie, and Macca and Chrissie and Rinnie and everyone else at the front of the field is. That is what makes Ironman racing so great, the inspirational stories like Lew Hollander and Sister Madonna Buder. Bring back the 17 hour cutoff.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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motoguy128 wrote:
tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.


Why does everyone go there. I may not be a lawyer or constitutional scholar, but my educated understanding of it is that it's not an all inclusive right. It is illegal for example to yell "fire" in a crowed place. Slander, Libel, plagiarism, terrorism, harassment, copyrights are other forms of public communication that are illegal and go against a simplistic interpretation of the 1st amendment. You are not free to say or write whatever you want, if it negatively impacts the rights of someone else.

Not really. A professional athlete is essentially an entertainer. The promoter of a private event can have control over it's "performers". They I assume, sign an agreement when they pay their annual registration fee and are essentially being paid to perform since they are receiving a discount on normal entry fees, receive some amount of marketing, promotion from the event without additional fees. Just having their own swim wave start, special color race bibs, etc. though minor, is a form of promotion.

Correct - Much like the second amendment provides you the right to bear arms. It doesn't say that you have the right to bear arms without regulation.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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Competitive sports do not, in any way, need to have money associated with winning.

For some, the act of winning is what drives their competition.

As it should.

By this definition, high school sports would be "participation events" and not "competitive sport." Heck, same with NCAA college football.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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Ironman telling pros how to behave on social media will make things worse rather than better. They are asking people to not be people. A totalitarian utopian rule environment will drive people away to more freedom. WTC will drive pros away to Challenge where they don't feel imprisoned.

The wise governing body allows a moderate amount of freedom. Just like you want to know who the jerk or idiot is in the room by letting people talk, you can find out who are your quality athletes you want to invest your time in by letting them use social media however they want and then you'll know who's a quality person.

Overly tight control works for a short while, but when a crack shows, the unhappy masses use it to leverage a strong revolt and a violent overthrow. Arab Spring, Thirteen colonies revolution... historic examples abound.

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Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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CementBottle wrote:
+1


The cutoff should remain 17 hours, these guys are EVERY bit a part of the Ironman race, just as much as Crowie, and Macca and Chrissie and Rinnie and everyone else at the front of the field is. That is what makes Ironman racing so great, the inspirational stories like Lew Hollander and Sister Madonna Buder. Bring back the 17 hour cutoff.

+2


.

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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snackchair wrote:
Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk.

Side note, but I had to disagree with this. High school track for example is a competitive sport - no prize money.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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"You damn kids get off my lawn."

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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So, I guess this is one of many reasons why Macca no longer associates himself with Ironman, huh?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
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Furious D wrote:
[
But at the same time the WTC has come to them basically saying - 'hey things between us have sucked and we are admitting that. Here's what we are trying to do to improve things for you. So instead of getting in social media pissing matches, lets work it out internally. If you disagree with what we are doing to make things better, or have other concerns, please go through these people or come to me, the CEO directly. Just please don't go out and fight this battle on social media'.

Yeah but WTC didn't say that. They said, "We are prepared to engage in a vibrant dialog about professional racing with you and your fellow professional athletes, but the dialog cannot take place publicly." [emphasis added] Which is pretty imperious if you ask me.

I don't disagree that public sniping isn't always the way to go, but the tone of this is wrong.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote]

Yeah but WTC didn't say that. They said, "We are prepared to engage in a vibrant dialog about professional racing with you and your fellow professional athletes, but the dialog cannot take place publicly." [emphasis added] Which is pretty imperious if you ask me.

I don't disagree that public sniping isn't always the way to go, but the tone of this is wrong.[/quote]



You're right. It's poorly worded ( as are many of his communications IMO). Should have said "we prefer to keep this communication in house. If you choose to take to social media, please be reminded we have a personal conduct policy and will enforce it."
Last edited by: Furious D: Sep 26, 14 9:10
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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You are completely right. If the Pros would STOP chasing Kona and WTC's trumped up World Championship then that would make a real statement. No pros, no championship event. Instead they whine like a bunch of little kids about not being able to have their cake and eat it too.

If you agree to participate then you agree to follow the rules of the event. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

Ready or not here I come!
Coaching NY's Southern Tier
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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>>]Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk.

>Side note, but I had to disagree with this. High school track for example is a competitive sport - no prize money.

Or any number of Olympic sports with no professional league to speak of...swimming, rowing, gymnastics, etc.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 26, 14 9:07
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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The unfortunate part is that pros have the need/desire to bitch about how things are done. If WTC did a better job supporting pros, you wouldn't see any complaining about it.

How often do pros complain about Challenge or did they complain about Rev3 (before the prize purse was lost?). I never heard a single bad thing come from a Pro about Lifetime, either.

Granted, I am a back of the back of the pack pro, but it seems strange that WTC is making some of these moves. If a good portion of the pro field is complaining or seems unhappy, something is seriously wrong.

speedySTATES
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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>Again, I fail to see where the pros bring value to an organization.

I fail to see where the pros don't bring value to the organization. That's just the problem. It's difficult to quantify. The only way to measure the value would be for them to go away. Everything else is just opinion.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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andrewnova wrote:
Robert wrote:
You don't think the pros bring value to WTC and/ triathlon?

Having pros race says: "This sport is the real deal; it's very hard; it's something you might be able to do. We will show you what the best humans can do." Triathlon has democratic appeal, traditional roots in three sports, and an over-all healthy lifestyle appeal. That's why Carfrae and chocolate milk are so great together. (I drink soy, but, never mind....)

I started in triathlon because it was the sort of off-beat thing in the early '80's I would do, and not because of the pros. But now, it is very interesting to watch the pros, see what they do and how they do it, and to compare performances (purely as a entertainment, and not because I think I can get close to their performances). It's a lot like bike racing without the drugs, IMHO. Those pros get millions.... Why shouldn't Jordan Rapp be making millions?

-Robert


Again, I fail to see where the pros bring value to an organization. Is what they do and are able to accomplish difficult and amazing, absolutely. However watching in amazement at their achievements, admiring their lifestyle and using their performances as a benchmark does not in it's current state generate monetary value. You have failed to provide any examples of pros causing people to spend money because of them. Jordan Rapp should be making millions when he can show to an organization/company that he generates even more millions for them.

I still don't understand why the pros haven't come together for THEIR greater good and potentially work with Challenge to build something together and market themselves heavily. All I continue to hear is WTC should pay pros more because they are doing something difficult. Nobody is going to give you anything, in triathlon or life-you have to work for it and create value.


What kind of bike do you ride? Did you test lots of them before buying? What helmet do you use? What about your tri kit? It seems to me that a lot of the things triathletes buy and use are influenced by what they see professionals using. When did sleeved tri tops become popular? After Marino wore one in Kona a couple years ago. I bet if you counted how many people wore them that year and compare it to how many you'll see this year, it's a very different number. I remember the message boards being abuzz about what he was wearing and where can people get one.

Whether you admit it or not, our consumerism is absolutely impacted by the products professionals use. And seeing professionals on the course is pretty cool if you ask me. I remember seeing Rinny at IMFL last year and, even though she completely sandbagged it to validate, having a World Champion there brings an allure to a race. And judging by the amount of people lined up to get autographs and pictures with her and TO the day before, I'd say those people got some value out of it too. I'll never kick a soccer ball with Wayne Rooney or Messi, but I can share a road and a lake with Kienle and Crowie. That's a pretty unique aspect to the sport.

_____________________________________________________
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Last edited by: Sbradley11: Sep 26, 14 9:19
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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>You want a sport that will become watchable and palatable to the masses you will have to provide a unified front.

I disagree with the premise. For a sport to be watchable and platable it merely needs to be...watchable and palatable. Long course triathlon just isn't, except to (some) other triathletes and their families who pretend to be interested after being dragged to some race venue.

All this social media policy talk is just a marginal stuff around the edges of core entertainment value. What's the most entertaining stuff recently? - TRS who turned the irreverent speech dial to '11'. Far more interesting than the canned corporate-speak spewed by most pro triathletes. (Satirized pretty well by another fake twitter account.)
Last edited by: trail: Sep 26, 14 9:20
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Sbradley11] [ In reply to ]
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Sbradley11 wrote:
andrewnova wrote:
Robert wrote:
You don't think the pros bring value to WTC and/ triathlon?

Having pros race says: "This sport is the real deal; it's very hard; it's something you might be able to do. We will show you what the best humans can do." Triathlon has democratic appeal, traditional roots in three sports, and an over-all healthy lifestyle appeal. That's why Carfrae and chocolate milk are so great together. (I drink soy, but, never mind....)

I started in triathlon because it was the sort of off-beat thing in the early '80's I would do, and not because of the pros. But now, it is very interesting to watch the pros, see what they do and how they do it, and to compare performances (purely as a entertainment, and not because I think I can get close to their performances). It's a lot like bike racing without the drugs, IMHO. Those pros get millions.... Why shouldn't Jordan Rapp be making millions?

-Robert


Again, I fail to see where the pros bring value to an organization. Is what they do and are able to accomplish difficult and amazing, absolutely. However watching in amazement at their achievements, admiring their lifestyle and using their performances as a benchmark does not in it's current state generate monetary value. You have failed to provide any examples of pros causing people to spend money because of them. Jordan Rapp should be making millions when he can show to an organization/company that he generates even more millions for them.

I still don't understand why the pros haven't come together for THEIR greater good and potentially work with Challenge to build something together and market themselves heavily. All I continue to hear is WTC should pay pros more because they are doing something difficult. Nobody is going to give you anything, in triathlon or life-you have to work for it and create value.


What kind of bike do you ride? Did you test lots of them before buying? What helmet do you use? What about your tri kit? It seems to me that a lot of the things triathletes buy and use are influenced by what they see professionals using. When did sleeved tri tops become popular? After Marino wore one in Kona a couple years ago. I bet if you counted how many people wore them that year and compare it to how many you'll see this year, it's a very different number. I remember the message boards being abuzz about what he was wearing and where can people get one.

Whether you admit it or not, our consumerism is absolutely impacted by the products professionals use. And seeing professionals on the course is pretty cool if you ask me. I remember seeing Rinny at IMFL last year and, even though she completely sandbagged it to validate, having a World Champion there brings an allure to a race. And judging by the amount of people lined up to get autographs and pictures with her and TO the day before, I'd say those people got some value out of it too. I'll never kick a soccer ball with Wayne Rooney or Messi, but I can share a road and a lake with Kienle and Crowie. That's a pretty unique aspect to the sport.

My bike, helmet, tri kit, and everything else tri based I have purchased has been 0% influenced by professionals. I bought what I thought was a decent product at a good price. I know Starky rides an Orbea but that is the only bike and product for that matter that I could match up with what a pro uses. Even knowing he is a great rider & what he rides, I would get another bike if I got a better deal on it. Let's also realize message boards, especially triathlon message boards are a very small part not only the general population but also the triathlon community.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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This smells just like the companies that have threatened to "fine" customers for leaving bad reviews on social media in places like Yelp. It doesn't work, and usually blows up in their faces.

Q: What would YOU do if your Ironman race-entry had a clause that "Thou shalt not criticize WTC or the Ironman event in social media"?

I expect we will see more parody accounts like TheRealStarky in response to this WTC "muzzling" of the pros. At least we can hope they will be half as entertaining as TRS...
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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The Guardian wrote:
Furious D wrote:
[
But at the same time the WTC has come to them basically saying - 'hey things between us have sucked and we are admitting that. Here's what we are trying to do to improve things for you. So instead of getting in social media pissing matches, lets work it out internally. If you disagree with what we are doing to make things better, or have other concerns, please go through these people or come to me, the CEO directly. Just please don't go out and fight this battle on social media'.


Yeah but WTC didn't say that. They said, "We are prepared to engage in a vibrant dialog about professional racing with you and your fellow professional athletes, but the dialog cannot take place publicly." [emphasis added] Which is pretty imperious if you ask me.

I don't disagree that public sniping isn't always the way to go, but the tone of this is wrong.

Guardian, Are you willing to have all of your personal business, your salary negotiations, your taxes, your will, your disagreements with your family discussed in a public forum? Or are there some things that better handled privately? If you owned a business would you expect that the people you do business with refrain from making negative statements about you in a public forum? Expecting people we work with to behave professionally is not being imperious.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
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It is worth noting that no where in #5 is there any specific threat of retaliation against pro's. There is a request to not use social media to air grievances.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [markg] [ In reply to ]
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markg wrote:
This smells just like the companies that have threatened to "fine" customers for leaving bad reviews on social media in places like Yelp. It doesn't work, and usually blows up in their faces.

Q: What would YOU do if your Ironman race-entry had a clause that "Thou shalt not criticize WTC or the Ironman event in social media"?

I expect we will see more parody accounts like TheRealStarky in response to this WTC "muzzling" of the pros. At least we can hope they will be half as entertaining as TRS...

Huge difference between the pros and the age groupers. Your comparison of a bad Yelp review is not valid. If I own a restaurant I can only control what the customers say by providing great service. But if an employee or business partner goes on to a public forum and slams my business I will find a new employee or business partner.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps you don't know what they ride, but I'd venture many people could name quite a few.

Let me ask it this way: Do you think Specialized had any value added when their bike went 1, 2, and 3 in Tremblant a couple weeks ago? I would guess there were some happy people in those offices that day.

_____________________________________________________
Instagram | Team Kiwami North America
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [fartleker] [ In reply to ]
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fartleker wrote:
The unfortunate part is that pros have the need/desire to bitch about how things are done. If WTC did a better job supporting pros, you wouldn't see any complaining about it.

How often do pros complain about Challenge or did they complain about Rev3 (before the prize purse was lost?). I never heard a single bad thing come from a Pro about Lifetime, either.

Granted, I am a back of the back of the pack pro, but it seems strange that WTC is making some of these moves. If a good portion of the pro field is complaining or seems unhappy, something is seriously wrong.

Right. Censoring pros is like WTC punishing pros for WTC's own bad behavior. Like getting mad at your boss for getting mad at you that you keep coming in late to work. This comes from running a company based on fear - fear of disappointing shareholders. If the company was run based on celebrating the sport and the amazing people and performances within, there would be a totally different attitude coming from top down.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
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Gary Mc wrote:
markg wrote:
This smells just like the companies that have threatened to "fine" customers for leaving bad reviews on social media in places like Yelp. It doesn't work, and usually blows up in their faces.

Q: What would YOU do if your Ironman race-entry had a clause that "Thou shalt not criticize WTC or the Ironman event in social media"?

I expect we will see more parody accounts like TheRealStarky in response to this WTC "muzzling" of the pros. At least we can hope they will be half as entertaining as TRS...


Huge difference between the pros and the age groupers. Your comparison of a bad Yelp review is not valid. If I own a restaurant I can only control what the customers say by providing great service. But if an employee or business partner goes on to a public forum and slams my business I will find a new employee or business partner.

/

It's entirely valid. You haven't heard of the gag orders doctors are putting into patient/doctor agreements?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...IQA2KQhYQ_story.html


Fuming about a billing dispute with his dentist, Robert Allen Lee posted his complaints on two consumer review Web sites, triggering a legal battle over a technique designed to snuff out negative online commentary.

In late August, a day after Lee posted his comments on Yelp and DoctorBase, he received a letter from the dental practice threatening to sue him for at least $100,000 for “defamation, slander and libel.” The letter reminded him that he’d signed an agreement with his dentist that barred him from publishing a critique of her or her office.



This is exactly what wtc is trying to do with pros, who are in fact paying customers (paying $800/year to race ironman races). While the pros may have the option of taking their business elsewhere, I also have the option to loudly complain about this abhorrent business tactic. Trying to censor criticism is cowardly and an admission that wtc knows it's doing a terrible job. An organization confident and proud of its customer service is happy to have public conversations about it.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
CementBottle wrote:
+1


The cutoff should remain 17 hours, these guys are EVERY bit a part of the Ironman race, just as much as Crowie, and Macca and Chrissie and Rinnie and everyone else at the front of the field is. That is what makes Ironman racing so great, the inspirational stories like Lew Hollander and Sister Madonna Buder. Bring back the 17 hour cutoff.


+2


.

But it is not Ironman's fault it is the women pro's demanding more time difference. They pretty much threw the WPro field under the bus over that change.
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