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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [prattzc] [ In reply to ]
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prattzc wrote:
But the pro's are being paid by WTC, if they place. Pro's are being used like an ad and marketing, to bring in customers (age groupers).

A pro winning a monetary prize at a wtc race is fundamentally no different than you winning $100, or a pair of sunglasses, for a podium at a local running race or bike race. You both paid to enter the race, and you may or may not recoup your entry fee.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Jordan45] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan45 wrote:
I thought WTC was just out to destroy Ironman as a pro sport. But with changing the age-group cutoff to 16:45, I realized that they're just dumb.

Roger Godell is the most competent CEO in America when compared with this guy.

I actually take serious offence to that comment. Shrugging domestic abuse under the rug is a fucking long way up the "should be fired" chain than having 10 athletes miss a cutoff. Give your head a shake.

Second, more general comment to thread.....all companies and sport leagues have code of conduct. And their employees and players share a lot more of the profits. Or put another way, if I owned a company that my employees went to twitter to slam do you think they'd still be employed? Or to lesser extent, do you think I would give them a bonus or raise? Pros need to get pro and "in bed" with the monopoly, or they need to walk with their wallets and PR to race Challenge. But they can't have both. Right or wrong, it's just not how it works and there are options to race elsewhere. this nonsense that twitter is their vehicle for change shows how amateur we are as a sport.

@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
GMAN19030 wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
I think in this case, most would do the Challenge race in Kona vs say the WTC Ironman race in Maui or back in Oahu.


I'd bet everything I own on the opposite. Did you not learn anything from Penticton? People will follow the Ironman name. Don't be foolish.

We're reaching a tipping point, especially in North America.

No we are not. Signed: Penticton taxpayer!

@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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I think there is a difference between winning a pair of socks at a local tri versus your only salary as a professional triathlete. Thankfully neither I nor my family needs the socks to survive.

And maybe I used the wrong terminology, they are contracted, not employees. I still have clauses in place for our contractors.

While the letter seems to come off as an angry response to recent social media venting of the pro's, it does have a valid point. Probably could have been worded better though.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Robert] [ In reply to ]
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Robert wrote:
You don't think the pros bring value to WTC and/ triathlon?

Having pros race says: "This sport is the real deal; it's very hard; it's something you might be able to do. We will show you what the best humans can do." Triathlon has democratic appeal, traditional roots in three sports, and an over-all healthy lifestyle appeal. That's why Carfrae and chocolate milk are so great together. (I drink soy, but, never mind....)

I started in triathlon because it was the sort of off-beat thing in the early '80's I would do, and not because of the pros. But now, it is very interesting to watch the pros, see what they do and how they do it, and to compare performances (purely as a entertainment, and not because I think I can get close to their performances). It's a lot like bike racing without the drugs, IMHO. Those pros get millions.... Why shouldn't Jordan Rapp be making millions?

-Robert

Again, I fail to see where the pros bring value to an organization. Is what they do and are able to accomplish difficult and amazing, absolutely. However watching in amazement at their achievements, admiring their lifestyle and using their performances as a benchmark does not in it's current state generate monetary value. You have failed to provide any examples of pros causing people to spend money because of them. Jordan Rapp should be making millions when he can show to an organization/company that he generates even more millions for them.

I still don't understand why the pros haven't come together for THEIR greater good and potentially work with Challenge to build something together and market themselves heavily. All I continue to hear is WTC should pay pros more because they are doing something difficult. Nobody is going to give you anything, in triathlon or life-you have to work for it and create value.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
bhc wrote:
This is an article on the economic effect that IM- Kona has on the local economy.

http://www.kpua.net/focus10132003.php

A Department of Business Economic Development and Tourism study concluded that $14.9 million is pumped in to the island economy over Ironman race dates. Utilizing known multiplier effects, that number mushrooms to more than $26 million in total sales resulting in $2.5 million in tax revenues alone...


I have no doubt that Kona has a huge, local economic impact, and that the Chamber, city council, and all powers-that-be locally are hugely supportive of WTC and keeping the event in town.

With that said, these economic impact studies are always hugely exaggerated, and the "multiplier effect" often used to make the numbers sound enormous are a farce. Frankly, $14.9m for Kona does not strike me as unreasonable considering the huge volume of non-athlete vendors and support that come for this prestigious event, so this particular study may have some grounding in reality, but these studies generally need to be drilled into to reveal the overly optimistic assumptions. I remember for IMNYC the economic impact pitched locally worked out to $14,000 per athlete, a number very hard to justify by any optimistic projections of affluent athlete spending or using "multiplier effect".

FWIM.... for Kona next year, here's my rough budget....

Entry fee - $850
Airfare - $6500 = 4 adults, 1 child.... not that they charge you less for a 40lb 6 year old...which is total BS... but I guess he ticket subsidizes the fat adults... maybe they should weight passengers and their luggage and a use an initial or minimum fee + a per lb price... that's how other cargo gets charged.
House rental ~$2200 with fees & taxes)? (1/4 mi from ocean, we know the sister of the owners, then have branch of their business in our town)
Car rental - $500?
Food & gifts, sights - $2500-3500 (could be very optimistic).
Total = around $12,000-13,000

Our cheaper accommodations skew the results a little I think.

We're also probably going to spend 3 days in Oahu afterwards, so that not included. The whole state gets a little bump from the event since a lot of folks often stay on another island after the event... not just Kona, but state taxes, not just local property taxes, pay for roads, schools, etc. If your paying $6000+ for airfare, might as well stick around a few more days. Could be 10-15 years before I visit there again.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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Entry fee and airfare are not local economic benefits, so lop $7500 off your total when considering how many of your dollars are local economic impact.

I also agree that Kona has an exceptionally large local economic benefit. Folks bring entire families for a vacation. Everyone travels to get there, so everyone stays in local lodging. Huge numbers of non-participants come because it's Kona. Everyone stays a full week or more, much longer than other events.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Replace "Kona" with "Penticton". That's exactly what happened here to a T.

So the $15MM question is: Is Kona prepared to do a Penticton?

@rhyspencer
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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Well, we will have to disagree on that. Why do you think WTC pays the pros? Because they look good? Have you seen Jordan Rapp? ;)

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.

Because the pro triathletes are not in a contract with WTC.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
I don't disagree. What strikes me is the sense of entitlement that WTC exudes over the pros, while simultaneously treating them like shit. The majority of pros who participate in a WTC event actually pay for the privilege as they recoup less than their annual fee.

Pros should behave professionally. They should have a more common front. It is certainly not WTC's responsibility to get them organized and establish codes of conduct. Frankly, the pros should create a player's union, like other professional sports have, that has this responsibility.

Nicely said. As I read through the message, I really felt what you're saying here.

The part I find the most frustrating is the "Building the Sport of Triathlon" section. They repeatedly use the phrase "our sport", but I think it would be more accurate to substitute "our business". I don't care for the "Ironman = triathlon" attitude. As a community, we need to drop that.

I think the forced corporate-approved volunteering is wrong. There are some relatively local pros that help out here in central Indiana with events put on by local organizations. These might not necessarily be volunteer efforts, but they're doing what they can do to grow "our sport." Instead, WTC wants to force him to do something of which they approve? What if he volunteered at a local tri, or a race put on by Challenge, Toughman, Setup Events, America Multisport or any of the many quality events around the world that aren't "name brand"? Would the WTC approve that? I doubt it. The WTC is forcing grassroots efforts to themselves. I don't like where this seems to be going. I really hope I am wrong.

To grow "our sport", we can all do that and should be able to help out how we choose - whether we convince a friend to try a local sprint, volunteer at a local race, take our kids out for a run/bike ride/swim, raise money for a charity, race local races, promote our favorite races - whatever we think might benefit triathlon. Triathlon is a community before it is a business. We all have the ability to be evangelists and ambassadors for "our sport". I have been fortunate to meet a lot of people in this community that are passionate about it, and no corporation should tell us what we can and can't do.

This has been a bad year for the pros. They have lost a lot of leverage and the WTC is exploiting them.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Indirectly they do. The airlines pay for use of the airports that get you to Kona. If volume of flights to Kona goes down by X% then the revenues paid to the local airport are going to go down Y%. Then less local resources are needed to staff the airport, resulting in Z% less tax revenue. Also, your entry fee is used to pay for the race (as well as WTC's overhead and profits). So a portion of the entry fee is utilized to secure permits, local support resources, etc. Its not 100% of that, but it does contribute to the overall revenues.


kny wrote:
Entry fee and airfare are not local economic benefits, so lop $7500 off your total when considering how many of your dollars are local economic impact.

I also agree that Kona has an exceptionally large local economic benefit. Folks bring entire families for a vacation. Everyone travels to get there, so everyone stays in local lodging. Huge numbers of non-participants come because it's Kona. Everyone stays a full week or more, much longer than other events.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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kny wrote:
Entry fee and airfare are not local economic benefits, so lop $7500 off your total when considering how many of your dollars are local economic impact.

I also agree that Kona has an exceptionally large local economic benefit. Folks bring entire families for a vacation. Everyone travels to get there, so everyone stays in local lodging. Huge numbers of non-participants come because it's Kona. Everyone stays a full week or more, much longer than other events.

You can't cut them 100%. At least 25% of the entry fee is spend locally and a portion of the airfare will impact the local economy. Fuel purchase, gate fees, airport employees, taxes, in flight meal.

My presence draws a fractional increase in the presence of vendors.

But yes, it's hard to quantify clearly. Most of my house rental goes to a person that lives in Alaska that's paying a mortgage to a bank located who knows where. My rental car fee goes to a corporation and the vehicle was purchased elsewhere.

So a dollar spent locally for one thing, is different than another. But there's still an impact.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
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I don't disagree that if WTC wants to impose gag orders on its participants, it can try to do so. That said, it makes them look heavy handed and defensive. Given how little money pros make from the sport, WTC has pretty much no leverage to scare most pros into submission. What are they going to do - take away a pro's "right" to pay an overpriced entry fee to do a race in which they won't win any money?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Robert] [ In reply to ]
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Robert wrote:
Well, we will have to disagree on that. Why do you think WTC pays the pros? Because they look good? Have you seen Jordan Rapp? ;)

-Robert

Pays the pros what, a prize for winning? My local sprint tri & 5k pay out to the winner too. What about Jordan Rapp? He's fast, awesome! Why does that mean he should get paid?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just tired of reading about people bitching about WTC and saying that pros should get paid because they are fast & do something difficult. If you don't like what WTC is doing, than do something about it, don't just complain. Don't sign up for their races, don't buy their branded merchandise, etc. As for paying the pros, they have to show value they bring. WTC or anybody else isn't going to give them money just because they compete in a difficult sport. Andrew Messick doesn't answer to the pros, he answers to Providence Equity. If the pros want him to listen more to them they need to do something and generate monetary value. Ironman races continue to sell out to the average AGer.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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Good luck trying to enforce it. WTC is going to police then entire world's professional triathletes who compete in their events?
Did they sign a deal with the NSA?

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Not sure why he didn't address it "Dear Minions".

Fucking perfect! I spit a little bit of milk out when I read that.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tlc13] [ In reply to ]
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Don't start this crap. The first amendment does not guarantee you the right to say whatever you want WITHOUT repercussion. In this case it guarantees the pros that they are not going to be prosecuted by the GOVERNMENT for saying they don't like things about the WTC.

WTC is well within their rights to put in place code of conduct guidelines and enforce those as a corporation. Same as ESPN can suspend Bill Simmons for 3 weeks for voicing his opinion on their radio station (yes, I know this doesn't relate to WTC and the Pros not being employees, but that is the same principle).



tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.
Last edited by: Furious D: Sep 26, 14 8:30
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [andrewnova] [ In reply to ]
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Having prize money is what makes it a competitive sport. Without it, it's not a sport. It's a participation event. Like a charity walk. Except the charity in this case is a private company.

Prize money indirectly drives the growth of the sport by legitimizing the competition. You need look no further than the banter on this forum, ironman's website, or local coverage event to see that competition in our sport matters. As stewards of the term ironman (at this point is ubiquitous with triathlon), they have an obligation to the sport - beyond their own coffers - to grow and showcase that competition.

___________________
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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NFL, NBA, and NASCAR are all contracted, salaried employees.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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The Guardian wrote:
I don't disagree that if WTC wants to impose gag orders on its participants, it can try to do so. That said, it makes them look heavy handed and defensive. Given how little money pros make from the sport, WTC has pretty much no leverage to scare most pros into submission. What are they going to do - take away a pro's "right" to pay an overpriced entry fee to do a race in which they won't win any money?

But at the same time the WTC has come to them basically saying - 'hey things between us have sucked and we are admitting that. Here's what we are trying to do to improve things for you. So instead of getting in social media pissing matches, lets work it out internally. If you disagree with what we are doing to make things better, or have other concerns, please go through these people or come to me, the CEO directly. Just please don't go out and fight this battle on social media'.

So that may come across as heavy handed, but to me its kind of reasonable. I imagine its in the best interest of WTC to keep their highest profile participants from bashing the brand in public. And its probably in the best interest of the pros who want to make money off of WTC to publicly promote the brand, rather than break it down.

Then what is the response to this request of a pro? I'm going to go ahead and disseminate this information so it gets out on social media instead of voicing my concerns through the channels outlined. I've been very critical of WTC in some cases, but actions like this also makes the pros look bad.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [tlc13] [ In reply to ]
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tlc13 wrote:
hmmm... sticking the fork in the 1st amendment.

Why does everyone go there. I may not be a lawyer or constitutional scholar, but my educated understanding of it is that it's not an all inclusive right. It is illegal for example to yell "fire" in a crowed place. Slander, Libel, plagiarism, terrorism, harassment, copyrights are other forms of public communication that are illegal and go against a simplistic interpretation of the 1st amendment. You are not free to say or write whatever you want, if it negatively impacts the rights of someone else.

Not really. A professional athlete is essentially an entertainer. The promoter of a private event can have control over it's "performers". They I assume, sign an agreement when they pay their annual registration fee and are essentially being paid to perform since they are receiving a discount on normal entry fees, receive some amount of marketing, promotion from the event without additional fees. Just having their own swim wave start, special color race bibs, etc. though minor, is a form of promotion.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [david] [ In reply to ]
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david wrote:
"There are already races that have cut offs less than 17 hours (16:30 at Mallorca for instance). "
--------------------
15 in Roth, and they seem to be doing OK.

On the other hand, as I now go into 55-59 and I feel the precipitous slide, at some point I may lobby for 19!

True. Switzerland is 16 hrs. I think most of the European IM races are as well.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree that prize money is what legitimizes something as a sport. By that logic Crossfit is a sport too since they offer prize money. I'm not saying that it's not in WTC's own best interest to grow the sport, but I am asking what have the pros done to cause WTC to pay them more? I am also making the point that WTC is not the only show in town and their are other options available. Rev3 stopped having a pro purse because they couldn't put a competitive field together to justify the expense even though they were paying more than WTC many times.
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