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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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KonaCoffee wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


As for the 16:45 cut off in Kona, I think the integrity of the women's race is more important than the whether some of us age groupers can finish in 17 or 16:45. I think this affects 5-10 older athletes versus the pro women's competition. Perhaps a provision could be made for athletes over 70 to start right after pro women and each of them can have a kayak escort BEHIND them so that it is impossible to swim over them. Then it is win win for all!


How about if WTC just take their race and leave town instead.

Well they did that to Oahu, 30 years ago and moved to Kona, , so I guess now you could kick them out of town and go elsewhere, and bring Challenge in to run the show. That might actually be a greater test of what athletes care about. I think in this case, most would do the Challenge race in Kona vs say the WTC Ironman race in Maui or back in Oahu.

Seriously though are you more bothered by the 17 hour cut off at Kona becoming 16:45 (they just said cut off at Kona, not at every IM), or would you like to see the pro women get a fair race. Personally I care more about the pro women's race than the race to beat the cut off, but I guess that is just me. I'd rather that the women's race not be diluted just to accommodate 5-10 people at the end of the race. I think they can be accommodated another way (as I suggested) without messing up the pro women's race. That's my 2 cents as a fan, who will be among the couple of 100,000 tuning into the pro race in 2 weeks, but will be fast asleep for the cut off.

I don't really get the animosity towards going from that position to wanting to kick them out of town, but i am not local and like most local locations, we the athletes tend to only see and care about what happens on race week. I am sure there are many frustrations outside of that week that you need to contend with that we don't see, so perhaps providing visibility into how WTC and us are screwing all that up, might be enlightening and make us all behave better when we are around.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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OK, if it is about splitting the men and women and ACTUALLY HAVING MORE KONA SLOTS EVERY YEAR SO MORE OF US GET TO RACE THERE, no please make the race smaller. Less people should race Kona, WTC should make less money and it should stay more exclusive for the cool ultra fast genetically blessed people only. We definitely don't want MORE people to have a chance to race Kona...HELL NO. Let's shrink the kona race back down to 900 people or so like 1988 so less people per year have greater bragging rights

Pink font for the above entirely optional.

I should be one of the people wanting less people to race Kona because I have had the chance to race there multiple times, but I actually want more people to have a chance to race there and realize that lifetime goal. If WTC makes more money in the process and more people are happy because they have a chance to race Kona (or a better shot at the road to Kona because a race has 50 KQ slots instead of 30) that is not an entirely bad thing.

The split starts are just two mass starts and each exceeds the mass starts of the past, so you still have the full mass start feel anyway.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [vancity] [ In reply to ]
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You want a sport that will become watchable and palatable to the masses you will have to provide a unified front. You want to be able to do what ever you want (social media, sponsors, races, etc) do not expect to get paid. WTC has to put together some kind of marketing campaign to build a TV/internet presence that is sustainable with marketing that will bring revenue for the athletes. The money that the AG athletes pay furthers the Ironman Machine and builds the events and locations but I dont believe it is sustainable to pay big money to athletes for all races.

I cant think of many profitable sports that don't have some sort of code of conduct for the use of social media and messaging. I think that is the intent of this message regarding social media posting.

If you are a NFL player and post some comments that are not inline with the NFL way of thinking, or openly criticize the NFL, be prepared to pay. NFL players are restricted from using social media 90 minutes before a game until after their post game media obligations. This is to ensure that people will watch ESPN and other programs to get the information, which in turn broadcasts commercials bringing in money that trickles down to players.

NBA fines players for their comments whether on social media or not if it is detrimental to the league. Does WTC fine athletes for talking about drafting or lack of refs?
Shoot, Nascar fines their drivers for social media comments.

I am sure there are some examples of sports that have no social media restrictions but generally if you are trying to get advertising and TV time there will be an agreement to give some exclusiveness to the networks in order to get $$$.

If the professional athletes make disparaging comments regarding the lead company it may cause others to have a lack of interest in it. "Well if Pro XXX thinks that WTC is messed up and event XX was trash, why am I going to do it? Why would I watch it on TV?"

Will full distance races ever become a weekly TV show... probably not.
Could you set up a series of 70.3 races that are more competitive (enticing locations) and broadcast them... probably.
If you have a series of 4-8 races that build to a WC, it could build enough interest in 2-3 years that live coverage (TV) could be tolerable.... people watch cars drive in a circle for 3+ hours... why not triathlon?
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The 16:45 change actually is nothing more than a stupid solution to a non-existent problem which has beome rather typical of WTC under its current management.

But since you asked here you ho:

They've over stayed their welcome by many years. They take resources from our community and expect to be thanked.

They get special priveleges in conducting their for profit business on our state owned pier and state owned ocean. Guess what? That's not allowed! No other organization charging any fee for any reason whatsoever is allowed to use our pier or state beach access to the ocean unless they're boating related businesses with a permit. That includes all the tri camps, all the swim clinics, local triathlon clubs, and other for profit but smaller races -- all of them. Only WTC Gets away with this. It's been enforced against everyone except WTC. Enforce it against them as well. Or ate they just special and entitled like their athletes of late?

They seriously restrict travel over a large swath of our island on race day. In some places for well over 24 hours.

Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

And it's not just bikers. Every year I see numerous instances of runners stopping traffic during rush hour so they don't have to stop and wait for the walk sign during their runs. It's beyond ignorance, it intentional. Never ever see that outside of this time of the year.

WTC pays lip service to the safety issues. And it gets worse every year.

And then there's the travesty of how locals can't even race in the only long course triathlon here without going into the lottery. Big Island residents used to at least be able to compete for our slots. That was taken away as well. Now we get to put our names in a hat instead.

And every year the locals have to put up with way too many of the 1800+ athletes telling us how we ought to do things in Hawaii. And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture.

Then there's the way you could say WTC treated a nice little 70.3 race out here by not just eliminating any pro purse for a June race but eliminating all 70.3 Championship points for the pros.

WTC behaves as if this is their company town. It's not, it's ours. The people that live here own it. I used to say that the town was split in 3s regarding this race. 1/3 wanted it in town, 1/3 wanted it to leave and 1/3 doesn't care. Only that last third hasn't changed. I know few people, including triathletes, who want it to stay now. Most now would send Itonman packing given the chance.


That's the short list.


---------------------------------------------------------
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -- A fake Albert Einstein "quote"
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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You really don't understand the WTC/athlete relationship. Your comparisons to other sports leagues are flat out wrong.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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Well thought out response.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Ellsworth53T] [ In reply to ]
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Ellsworth53T wrote:
You really don't understand the WTC/athlete relationship. Your comparisons to other sports leagues are flat out wrong.

It is quite different indeed. Those leagues and their respective teams have cleardefined paths of paying the athletes. Contracts. Players unions. Not perfect, but even the neopro NBA pointguard is paid well by any standard.

It would be similar if NFL linebackers would play AFL/European league games to get paid enough to support their family. I think we would see much more critical quarterbacks on twitter if that were so.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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The athletes are under contract in those leagues and the leagues provide a living wage for the athlete. The triathletes, as far as im aware, are not under any sort of contract with WTC, and WTC certainly doesn't provide a guaranteed wage.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [grindmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Not to make less of the frustration you and the community feel, but it seems as if a lot of the issues you have - probably 45% to 65% are with people being assholes, and not WTC, some are valid, and I won't claim to understand some of them, others are just part and parcel of being a destination - How do you think folks in Cancun or Riviera Maya feel about "American" tourists on the inside? Other statements aren't just "you" - like your statement about the 70.3 - how do you feel a community like Madison feels about having IMWI stripped of points and prize money? Lake Placid? Panama City?

Quote:
Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

Work the political process to get the police to enforce rules of the road on shitty bicyclists more heavily.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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KonaCoffee wrote:
The 16:45 change actually is nothing more than a stupid solution to a non-existent problem which has beome rather typical of WTC under its current management.

But since you asked here you ho:

They've over stayed their welcome by many years. They take resources from our community and expect to be thanked.

They get special priveleges in conducting their for profit business on our state owned pier and state owned ocean. Guess what? That's not allowed! No other organization charging any fee for any reason whatsoever is allowed to use our pier or state beach access to the ocean unless they're boating related businesses with a permit. That includes all the tri camps, all the swim clinics, local triathlon clubs, and other for profit but smaller races -- all of them. Only WTC Gets away with this. It's been enforced against everyone except WTC. Enforce it against them as well. Or ate they just special and entitled like their athletes of late?

They seriously restrict travel over a large swath of our island on race day. In some places for well over 24 hours.

Their customers have become increasingly rude to locals over the last 5 years in particular.. They run red lights on their bycycles, they don't bother to stop at stop signs, they do more than encroach on the traffic lanes -- they flat out ride in large groups well inside traffic lanes. Somebody is s going to get killed and my sympathy is almost certainly going to be with the hapless driver.

And it's not just bikers. Every year I see numerous instances of runners stopping traffic during rush hour so they don't have to stop and wait for the walk sign during their runs. It's beyond ignorance, it intentional. Never ever see that outside of this time of the year.

WTC pays lip service to the safety issues. And it gets worse every year.

And then there's the travesty of how locals can't even race in the only long course triathlon here without going into the lottery. Big Island residents used to at least be able to compete for our slots. That was taken away as well. Now we get to put our names in a hat instead.

And every year the locals have to put up with way too many of the 1800+ athletes telling us how we ought to do things in Hawaii. And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture.

Then there's the way you could say WTC treated a nice little 70.3 race out here by not just eliminating any pro purse for a June race but eliminating all 70.3 Championship points for the pros.

WTC behaves as if this is their company town. It's not, it's ours. The people that live here own it. I used to say that the town was split in 3s regarding this race. 1/3 wanted it in town, 1/3 wanted it to leave and 1/3 doesn't care. Only that last third hasn't changed. I know few people, including triathletes, who want it to stay now. Most now would send Itonman packing given the chance.


That's the short list.


Thanks for your response. I have no doubt it's heartfelt. My question is that this seems quite similar to what I have heard from lake placid locals... Almost to the tee. Yet, they keep re-upping. The impact on the lake placid economy for the ironman is pretty big, and not just on the race week, but the training months before and after as well. It sounds like Kona has a better economy in place and is less reliant on the race income, correct?

Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Last edited by: Fred D: Sep 26, 14 3:58
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.

I think we have differing definitions of what entails "employement".
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [lostinT2] [ In reply to ]
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"There are already races that have cut offs less than 17 hours (16:30 at Mallorca for instance). "
--------------------
15 in Roth, and they seem to be doing OK.

On the other hand, as I now go into 55-59 and I feel the precipitous slide, at some point I may lobby for 19!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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"And almost none of them have the slightest respect for the host culture. "
-----------------

You certainly have a different perspective than most of us and we appreciate your insight. However, I think you are lumping everyone in with the bad apples. I have raced there a number of times over the past 24 years, and while some things have changed, in many ways it is still the same.

The folks I have been with and around have HUGE respect for the locals, their culture, and the community. I feel I give back to them and try hard to let them know we appreciate them hosting the event. And, they in return treat us wonderfully. I have always had a good experience and can't even think of a bad experience/conversation I have had with any locals there.


Anyway, thanks for the local insight. I will always try to be a good ambassador when I visit.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [JV99] [ In reply to ]
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JV99 wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.


I think we have differing definitions of what entails "employement".

Possibly. However, if I'm racing as a pro and expect that the organization is going to give me money, I should probably do my best to build up the organization. Even if I don't get any money right now but hope to get money in the future. It's in my best interest to publicly help the organization be as good as possible. If there are problems, it won't do me any good to bash the organization on social media.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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i think those professions also provide a lot more benefits to their members/ employees than WTC does for their professional triathletes. Minimum wage? Working conditions? Equality? I think it's more like WTC getting a free pass to do what they want don't you think?

Feel the Speed
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Just wait until you get older. These 5 to 10 impacted folks might be you.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Just wait until you get older. These 5 to 10 impacted folks might be you. .


That's a fair point to make - those most directly affected by the time shift will be older folks who got in via lottery. We can debate the merits as to whether or not it is fair to this select group of people or not (vs the M25-29 KQ crowd, or whatever), but at the end of the day WTC is free to make these sorts of policy decisions for the betterment of their race. Is changing the start times so that 35 FPro's can have an unimpeded start going to offset 10 AG's worth it? I suspect it might be. But it's a localized time change at a WC event - not an across the board change.

Sometimes these types of changes work the other way. A good analogue would be the new Boston Marathon Qualifying times. How many of us got upset because they dropped the times by 5 minutes across the board? Thus benefiting the older crowd and women, for whom the BQ decreased as a lower % of overall time. As an M30-34 I need to be faster by 2.7%, whereas the time for F60-65 its only 1.8%. Meh. If being a 'Kona finisher' means I now have to complete the course in 16:45 so be it.

Us young folk can also make the argument that the way Kona slots are allocated unfairly benefits older athletes and women, so I don't think its that big a deal...
Last edited by: timbasile: Sep 26, 14 5:05
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the perspective from the local community. I personally promise to respect the sacrifices the local community makes to host the race. I'm truly grateful for the opportunity to participate in your race (WTC owns the rights to the race, but Hawaii owns the spirit of the race.)

But let's not forget the $$$$ we bring. Man it ain't cheap! (Ofcourse a big chunk is going to a house owner who lives in California, not Hawaii....)
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Just wait until you get older. These 5 to 10 impacted folks might be you.


.


The 80+ mens group in 2011 may have been the most exciting and close age-group race in Kona. These guys were racing neck and neck until the very end.

Men 80 & Over Awards
Place Bla Time Numb Lname Fname Cnt Rep Swim Tr1 Bike Tr2 Run
===== === ======== ==== ========================== === === ======= ======= ======== ======= ========
1 16:45:55 181 Hollander, Lew USA USA 1:57:44 8:59 7:36:31 6:00 6:56:43
2 16:50:43 156 Cokan, France USA SLO 2:08:16 8:56 7:42:22 10:24 6:40:47
3 16:51:30 155 Roberts, Lyle USA USA 1:57:28 6:34 8:03:18 7:03 6:37:10
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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Everyone wants everything. Have WTC pony up larger purses, provide TV/Internet coverage, and allow athletes to say whatever they want about the company that would be providing them a paycheck. He has a point.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kcb203] [ In reply to ]
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wow, none of them would officially finish under the 16:45 rule. i didnt realize that. this makes that 15 minutes a bigger deal to me when previously i had shrugged it off. thats effectively eliminating that age group and presumable the women's as well.
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [KonaCoffee] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for sharing those thoughts, Albert.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
JV99 wrote:
Tri-Banter wrote:
My school district has a code of conduct for how it's staff can/ can't behave on social media. Violations can results in termination. My guess is that most professional positions have similar stipulations in their terms for employment. I'm not sure why anyone expects pro triathletes to have a free pass.


I think we have differing definitions of what entails "employement".


Possibly. However, if I'm racing as a pro and expect that the organization is going to give me money, I should probably do my best to build up the organization. Even if I don't get any money right now but hope to get money in the future. It's in my best interest to publicly help the organization be as good as possible. If there are problems, it won't do me any good to bash the organization on social media.


All WTC offers pros is a prize purse at it's events. They may be the biggest and largest, but that's all they have to offer. Unlike NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, and virtually all other professional sports, WTC does not own the pros. They are not under contract. WTC does not pay them a salary. WTC does nothing more than pay a prize purse to those who happen to win, just like many other triathlon events around the globe. WTC's use of "our professional athletes" throughout that communication is embarrassing, as if WTC somehow controls these independent contractors. The sense of entitlement mind-blowing. If WTC wants to own the pros, they should pay them a salary rather than do the opposite: charge the pros an annual fee to participate in their events with the chance of winning cash awards.
Last edited by: kny: Sep 26, 14 5:41
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Re: Ironman CEO: dear professional athletes [kny] [ In reply to ]
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I hear what you are saying and I'm not a big fan of the amounts of prize money and the depth as to who gets paid (I think both should be significantly higher).

Now, let's imagine that everyone on the prize podium at Savageman, those that took home the cash, went on social media the very next day and started complaining about the race. Savageman sucks. It's not safe. People like jonahsdad almost died because of the negligence of the race director. Thank goodness Alyssa was there since the race did nothing to help him. Etc. Etc.

How motivated would Savageman be to continue to offer prize purses?

Now, I'm not for a moment trying to defend the WTC. I simply don't think this is purely a WTC issue. I'm of the opinion that professionals should behave as such, which includes not biting the hand that feeds (or could potentially feed) them. The biggest shame isn't the fact that the WTC is trying to raise the standards for professional behavior from the professional athletes, it's that the pros aren't doing it themselves. If you want the WTC to give out more cash, to have a minimum wage, to pay deeper, offer benefits, etc., you really need to set up a culture and environment that motivates them to do so. Bring sponsors to the race, not just yourself. Griping about the race and the organization isn't going to get you there.

The other question is: Why is this the WTC's responsibility to even broach the topic in the first place? OR, if the WTC shouldn't set such policies, such as social media behavior, then who should (and why haven't they)?






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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