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"Best bang for your buck" run training
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If you could only run 2-3 times per week, for 3-6 miles a time, what would you do to get the most all-round fitness for your time?

Not looking for advice on how to fit in more running, the BarryP plan, etc. I love the BarryP plan and will use it as the basis for any training I do to prepare for a race with running in it. I'm just minimising my training time for the next 6 months or so and putting racing on hold, and want to get as much fitness/strength/health benefits as I can out of every session, as well as incorporating plenty of variety. Swimming has been cut completely (too time-consuming), cycling has been cut to commuting and hard indoor intervals only (weekend rides are too time-consuming). Also incorporating some bodyweight circuits and indoor rowing training into the mix, as both are very time-efficient, and figure at my age (39) I should be incorporating some regular strength training for health benefits.

I wondered whether this would have been better off posting in a Crossfit forum, but figured that even a 3 mile run was getting into long endurance for them...
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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What I would do:


800 repeats at least once a week. 1m warm up - 3 to 8 x 800 repeats on half time rest (if you ran the 800 in 3:30, rest for 1:15). 1m cool down. Skip the track and just do the 1/2m intervals on your regular training routes.

Tempo run once a week. 5min warm up, 2-4m at HM pace, 5min cool down.

Easy "long" run once a week. 6m
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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run 6 miles 3 times a week
twice moderate, once fast.

cartsman wrote:
If you could only run 2-3 times per week, for 3-6 miles a time, what would you do to get the most all-round fitness for your time?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [godaddygo] [ In reply to ]
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godaddygo wrote:
What I would do:


800 repeats at least once a week. 1m warm up - 3 to 8 x 800 repeats on half time rest (if you ran the 800 in 3:30, rest for 1:15). 1m cool down. Skip the track and just do the 1/2m intervals on your regular training routes.

Tempo run once a week. 5min warm up, 2-4m at HM pace, 5min cool down.

Easy "long" run once a week. 6m

one more vote for this routine - it's quite similar to my own. it's simple, but i'd say that depending on where your running is at the moment, if you keep it real you could actually improve, too. just make every run count!

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [godaddygo] [ In reply to ]
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godaddygo wrote:
What I would do:


800 repeats at least once a week. 1m warm up - 3 to 8 x 800 repeats on half time rest (if you ran the 800 in 3:30, rest for 1:15). 1m cool down. Skip the track and just do the 1/2m intervals on your regular training routes.

Tempo run once a week. 5min warm up, 2-4m at HM pace, 5min cool down.

Easy "long" run once a week. 6m

This would be best. I mix my intervals with a core routine inbetween sets to maximize my time and strengthen my "running" muscles. It has really helped reduce my injuries this season.

Ian
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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That's very much like I would suggest but maybe instead of the 800's do mile repeats. Kind of my opinion though, hard 800's are VO2 work, mile repeats are on the border of threshold work.

jaretj
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Triathlete Europe has an article, which may be useful: Run Success: The Power Of Three

Advocates speedwork, hills and long run as the three essentials.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
run 6 miles 3 times a week
twice moderate, once fast.

cartsman wrote:
If you could only run 2-3 times per week, for 3-6 miles a time, what would you do to get the most all-round fitness for your time?

+1

There are no secret sauces or special workouts in running. Specially if you are running for triathlons. If you run the exact same workout over and over again, your body will adapt to that workout, but you would be missing out on adaptations beyond that workout.

Just run as much as you can, but no more. Most runs should be easy, but you should have regular 'hard' runs. Make sure those two runs are extremely polarized. Your recovery runs SHOULD BE SLOW, and your workout SHOULD BE FAST. Don't spend a ton of time in the middle. Ideally, about 80% of your running should be well below your threshold, and 20% should be above. With this model, jackmott pretty much nailed it. Run 6 miles 3 times a week, make one run a week hard, and the other two easy. On the hard run, I'd go as far to say run an easy warm-up mile, run 4 miles "hard stuff", and run a cool down mile, and you'll be in balance.

For the "hard stuff," very your workouts in a progressive manner. Start with hill sprints and long hill repeats for the first month or two, then change the stuff to 4 miles of stuff that varies between half marathon and 10k pace in a fartlek format (continually running) and do that for a month or two, then work your way into track work with ladders, 800 and 400 meter repeats a little faster than 5k pace and mile repeats at or a little slower than 5k pace.

When you are getting to be 20 weeks or so away from another race, take a week or two off running (or just run REALLY slow...I'm a mid-17 minute 5ker right now and my slow runs are around 8:30 pace and my 'normal recovery' runs are anywhere from 7:30 to 8:30 pace) and start the cycle over again, but hopefully with a long run incorporated.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
That's very much like I would suggest but maybe instead of the 800's do mile repeats. Kind of my opinion though, hard 800's are VO2 work, mile repeats are on the border of threshold work.

jaretj

Given one of the things I want is plenty of variety, I could just alternate doing 800s 1 week and miles the next. Worth going even shorter and doing 400s? There's a nice 1/2 mile long steady incline near me, problem is of course that running up and down that would make the recovery time longer than the interval. Worth doing anyway for some hill work?

Very similar to what I'm doing with the indoor rowing - each week one of my sessions is repeats, cycling through 500m, 1000m and 2000m repeats. (1000m and 2000m on a rowing machine is pretty similar timewise to 1/2 mile and mile of running). Figure that every 3rd week I should see some improvement in my splits at least for a while. When things start plateauing it'll be time to mix up the training a bit. Am watching ebay closely to try and pick up a secondhand Vasa, sounds like that would be a good addition to the time-efficient training armoury.

Glad to see there's a sort of consensus emerging anyway!
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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I think it really comes down to what you need the most.

Most likely 95% of people need more endurance and personally, I feel that mile repeats build endurance better than 2 to 3 min intervals.

With that said you have a 5 to 6 week adaptation window where you will adapt the the stress you put on your body in that time period. If I felt both would help I would break it up into 5 weeks of 800's then 5 weeks of mile repeats.

Your 800's as described above with half of the time as rest will need to be really hard 800's to give the desired training effect. Those are hard and they suck. 1 mile repeats at Daniels Tempo (~20 sec slower than 10K pace) are also hard and they suck, but stress a different system in your body.

Which stress you need is dependent upon your current abilities. Do each one for several weeks at a time and see how you do.

jaretj
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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"adaptation to training is the accumulated effect of specific transcriptional and translational micro-adaptations that occur after each bout" ~Steve Magness


To get the best "bang for your buck" repeat workouts only enough to stress adaptations to progress logically to the next step. Repeating the same workouts for the entire time aren't going to get you many gains. They may get you some, but once your body adapts to those stresses, you need to change the stress to force new adaptations.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Just run 3 times per week, every week, for years. Put some nice long hills in each run. No need for speed work, get that from races. I would get to like 1.5 hours per run. Cross country.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Endurance has never been much of a limiter for me, I've been doing some kind of endurance training (rowing or various permutations of SBR) pretty much continuously for 20 years and tend to get more competitive the longer the distance. My biggest run limiter has always been that over the longer distances (10k and beyond), my body/form isn't strong enough to keep up with my engine, so I find going to the well at those distances in a race almost invariably leaves me with an injury.

Hoping that a nice side benefit of doing lower volume and more intensity for a while may be improved form and ability to deal with the higher paced stuff, so that when I next build the volume for a race I can cope better with it.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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I would start looking at it within the context of not one week but 36 miles or 54 miles.

IE: with limitations placed on volume and frequency, start looking at how you would split up 14 or 21 day periods.

At a certain time you could also evaluate, the benefit of the trainer session on the bike vs more running. Alternating one week trainer vs one week extra run session.

Maurice
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not going to be racing for at least 6 months though, and realistically none of my runs are going to be over an hour and many will be more like 30 minutes because that's all I can fit in. When volume is limited, then the only way to increase training stress and therefore adaptation is to introduce intensity.

(2 pre-school aged children, a wife that works, and running a business with a very busy 6 months of projects is taking up the rest of my time, it's not that I couldn't do more training right now, but that I'm choosing to prioritise other things for a while)
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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If you're not training to race, simply go out and run easy distance. There's no need to risk injury running fast off limited mileage. If you want to get the most out of 2-3 runs per week in terms of maintaining current ability I would do a weekly interval workout and tempo run; however you'll increase your risk of injury given your age and lack of run volume. A compromise would be doing only one tempo or interval workout per week. If you do a tempo run in week one, do an interval workout in week two, etc.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, that folks for some, but many I see also are hurt a lot.

As an old guy, getting to a race healthy is much more important than speed.

Personally, when I was your age with kids, my only focus was what we all did as a family. I never had time to find a sport like this since I was too busy with the kids. (And work).
Your kids will be gone before you know it. I sure do not regret that I did not do any me stuff while they were young.

Remember this is a hobby, sport, for fun.

Good luck. I keep always having to kick my Type A in the butt to leave me alone.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Another idea for you, since you said you have pre school kids. I have now 3 grandkids. I have been pushing them in stroller races since the first was 9 weeks old! They LOVE to race with me.
Have you ever raced with a stroller with them? I even have pushed 2 in a double stroller. I have done one in a half marathon, and might be doing this again for the run part
of a half ironman coming up with a relay team.

So, lots of creative ways to get exercise and involve the family.

They will not care if you are fast or not, just you are doing things with them.
.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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My son is almost 3. Last summer he LOVED Chariot rides. Now he only likes them if they get him to the park faster. The more active he gets, the less training I get - bike riding with him involves me sitting on the saddle & barely moving while he runs with his balance bike.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still torn on what is better for me.

I did a lot of track work this summer because I felt my run speed is limited by how fast I can move my legs and the size of my stride. I've got fairly short legs.

Now compared to my training partners, I do very well on hills, good on 5K's, good on long threshold intervals and poorly on the track.

I just get killed on the track and don't know why they can run so much faster than me. Last week we just went to longer intervals on the road (4X10'), I was just behind on the first one, together on the second two and ahead on the last one. Those 10' intervals were almost as fast as I could run 400's and 800 on the track. Accounts like this lead me to believe that I need more work at really fast paces but after spending 8 weeks doing them I hadn't gained any noticeable speed.

Now it could be that I need more time with them or just some time letting my body absorb the speedwork and I should have done them earlier in the season. I recently transitioned from short course to HIM training and am getting ready for the Half at Cedar Point. I'll see how the faster training has affected me later in the season when I get to Rev3 Florida.

Another thing that seems to work really well for me are hill intervals. I dedicated one day a week for 8 weeks last spring doing 5X 1/2mile hard hill intervals with equal rest time. Those were about 3:30 long and I ran them as hard as I could. I did those prepping for Triple T and did very well there.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Neither of my kids is able to sit still for long enough for running with a stroller! Older one (now nearly 4) did at least used to be happy on the back of the bike but now wants to cycle or scoot everywhere herself. Younger one is only 18 months but wants to be just like her sister, is already trying to use the scooter and throws a massive tantrum whenever we strap her into a buggy, car seat, etc. There's a nice stretch of towpath along the river near us which is very safe, hoping in the not too distant future I'll be able to run alongside while they ride their bikes. Older one is also learning to swim at the moment, and the river is very flat and safely navigable, so planning to get a tandem sit on top kayak next year and start taking her out in that which will be some good exercise for me.

And yes, totally with you on prioritising the family at this time - it's why I'm cutting back the training so much (to be honest it's been pretty cut back for a while), but I know I'm a more balanced, happy and productive person when I'm getting in at least some exercise during the day. 2-3 days per week I should be able to get that with no net time cost by cycling to work (18 miles each way, with some rolling hills and plenty of other bikes to race so generally a pretty good workout), the other days it's going to have to be squeezed in whenever possible without eating into family time, which is why a lot of the time it's going to be the best I can do in 30 minutes or less. Am lucky enough to be able to occasionally work from home when I don't need to see clients or catch up with the team, so can at least fit in quick workouts during the day some of the time.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Unfortunately many view training as, all this or all that. It's not like that. It's always varying.

There is a place and a time in the training year for the high frequency run training that both Barry, my self and others are advocates for. There's other times of the year, when only running 3x week with a very specific focus on each run session may be better.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Stepping back, we're whatever training we're doing factors in:
  1. The event - the date and course. The is the easiest, basically your goal.
  2. The timeline - time between now and the event, typically base/build/taper cycle. A bit harder now, we've got to plan.
  3. The individual - the strengths of the particular athlete. Hardest, and most easily ignored by type A triathletes who want the "one" perfect workout that will make them better

Well, you don't have #1, but I can guess you might want to jump in an event here and there, so you just want to sort of keep what you got so you can go out and have fun. Without #1, you don't get #2, so we can't expect much improvement without altering the load and getting an adaptation. We still have #3 though! A major factor in this is muscle fiber proportion - despite the name of this site, two athletes can do the same event with the same result, but get there more aerobically or anaerobically from each other. That's why I put Fleck's quote in there. Usually the event the athlete does best in is self selected by their strengths, and the workouts they like to do also tell you about their strengths. So you got a lot of replies of people basically telling you their favorite workout(s). They aren't wrong, everybody covered the two basic principles of endurance and speed.


Now you have to be aware of what type of endurance athlete you are. If you like to do tempo runs and steady longer runs, and they have given you good results in the past, you're probably more aerobically strong. Given your goal and time limitations, I'd probably suggest 2 steady state runs about marathon pace, and one tempo run. Again, that is given your schedule limitations. On the other hand, if you find that you like to do faster intervals and found you just can't get the level of performance without doing those workouts, you're probably more anaerobically strong (like me). For your schedule, I'd probably say 2 progression runs (where you start real easy for half or more and then finish faster) and one interval session (you can keep the work and recovery short, like 1:00 run/:30 walk, and it won't beat you up so much).


I've got a similar situation, I can fit in 2 rides and 2 runs. I throw in a weekly swim about 6 weeks out if I'm going to do a triathlon, sticking to sprint/oly/xterra, (also do some run and mtb races). Have some free weights and bands that I try to fit in for a quick 15 minutes during the week. Get good results in a race, not far off from best and always wishing I had more prep, but works within the limitations and it's more fun to be in decent shape and do events. Periodization comes from more daylight hours available in summer, keep the same speed but extend the distance.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Just make sure those six miles are straight up hill.
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Re: "Best bang for your buck" run training [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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2 off road with hills, hard ie threshold as the terrain dictates..... cos its fun, keeps it interesting is seriously hard work, and works out all the supporting muscle groups for stabiliastion and control...
Also give the option of softer terrain underfoot....
one flat on road ..... zone 2

Of course all of this entirely depends on what else you have going n t in the week, the levels you train to in those sessions and yor recovery following them and these sessions...

So perhaps the best advice is to create your weekly plan as you see fit accounting for everythig you have going on, the intensity, duration and recovery of all being the important bit...

Good luck anyhow.
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