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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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I have never qualified for Kona but hopefully someday it will happen. I've finished four IM's as well as Boston four times. For what its worth my legs hurt more after Boston than the IM's. It sounds like you are a great runner but if Kona is what you want, skip Boston. Its going to take you time to recover and like others said the travel and stuff beats on you. Boston is a very tough race to just "hold back" especially if you are feeling good. The crowds are deep and lined the whole way. Unless you are totally disciplined I bet you run it way faster than planned. Focus on Kona qualifying!!!
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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WX wrote:
SpicedRum wrote:
do some heat adaptation.


Have you tried anything that works well? Should I just layer up and turn off the fan on the trainer? Run in sweats but drink lots of water?


Listen to this podcast, I found it pretty interesting.

http://triathletetraining.com/tt025-heat-acclimation/
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome and thought provoking comment right here.
The older I get, the more I believe in the mental aspect of endurance sports.
I'd love to have a beer with An Old Guy.

Chasing The Big Race In The Sky
@C_Bright_Run
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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Just look at the results in your age group over the last few years at that race. You need to be fairly close to that when you add all your splits up.

My advice is this: The biggest mistakes most people make are in the first 40k of the bike and the first 5k of the run. Use your head, and if that fails listen to what your PM is telling you. It won't lie to you and tell you your awesome like your mind will. But then you'll find out 60k later your mind betrayed you.

Be smart, 30% of all people toeing the IM start line will defeat themselves in the race. 20-30% defeated themselves in training getting to the race. You really only have to deal with 50% of your Ag that trained and raced smart at the end of the day. It's better to be in the smart 50% then the dumb 50%.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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What happened ??
Did he qualify ?
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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It can absolutely happen for you but really be careful with Boston. I have run Boston 8 out of past 9 years and IM Texas the past 2. Prior to that, I never raced IM's until late summer or fall coming from Ohio. Two years ago I had to skip Boston for last minute personal reasons. I went to Texas somewhat under trained but well rested and had my best race ever. Last year went to Boston with the goal of running "EZ" for 20 then build the final 6 miles for the training effect. Even did a 4+ hour ride the day prior to Boston to keep me honest. I pretty much accomplished the goal. However, Ignoring my body and staying on "plan" I took about a day of recovery and got back to it. Long story short, even at a relatively ez pace, Boston hills still took it out of me and I crashed/burned in Texas, race walking through the marathon. My fitness had never been better at the time. I went on to have a crappy rest of the IM season including an IM Placid walk, DNS's at Muncie and Steelhead, DNF's at Eagleman and Wisconsin. The season of promise was one of overreaching and injury. It all went back to Boston and bad training/racing decisions in and around that time. If you want success at Tex, consider running the distance your training plan would have called for (16-20 miles I'd guess) and then shut it down. Like, consider a walk back into the city. An EZ 26 mile jog is still a shit ton of load. Especially for someone new to the IM game.

And finally, thinking back to my first IM, it would have been helpful if someone had told me prior that the IM marathon feels like something totally different than a marathon. Be ready mentally for that and accept all of the awkward sensations your body will be experiencing. And, don't be upset with an 8 minute mile or a need to walk here or there. It's a long day and everyone is in the same boat. Good luck; I look forward to the outcome...

Swimmer
http://www.usprotri.com/LAMASTRA.html
http://www.bodyphyxinternational.com
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [jimswim99] [ In reply to ]
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Marathon running is rubbish preparation for IM marathons.

And while we're at it, a half IM is nothing like an IM.

That sounds glib, and I don't have the same experience that a lot of the guys on here have, but honestly it just isn't the same thing at all. What you learn running the marathon won't be relevant enough (and besides, you've done that many times before and very well by all accounts), nor will the training or conditioning benefits be large enough to offset the fatigue you are putting into yourself.

Anyway, you are at the biggest Ironman training and racing discussion board on the planet, and loads of people have warned you against running Boston. I'd think about that. And I'd think about what my A race is and everything else I do would be aligned to that goal.

Good luck, following with interest and rooting for you. I've a young daughter, a son on the way and a demanding job. I have some natural ability but my one shot at Kona glory was realistically about 8 years ago before I met my partner and took a promotion. Unfortunately I only took up triathlon 6 years ago... ;-)
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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I think you need to put in a long day of training to figure out your nutrition. That seems to be a big limiter of some of the really, really fit athletes that I know. The catch of course is that even if you have it nailed under most conditions - heat, maybe swallowing some water on the swim, etc can screw it up on race day. That happened to my gf and even a number of seasoned pros at Kona this past year.... despite a tried and true nutrition strategy they were still limited by stomach issues.

I would have a day where you eat the same dinner and breakfast going into training that you'll eat on race day, then mimic your fueling strategy exactly for something like 30 min swim, 5.5 hour bike, 45 min run. Do it at just a few percent higher than IM effort and you should figure out if your plan works for you. If it's colder outside than it will be on raceday, overdress a bit.

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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [psoasminor] [ In reply to ]
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psoasminor wrote:
What happened ??
Did he qualify ?

Looks like he never raced it.

http://www.xiao-wang.com/races-and-results.html
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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knighty76 wrote:
Marathon running is rubbish preparation for IM marathons.

And while we're at it, a half IM is nothing like an IM.

That sounds glib, and I don't have the same experience that a lot of the guys on here have, but honestly it just isn't the same thing at all. What you learn running the marathon won't be relevant enough (and besides, you've done that many times before and very well by all accounts), nor will the training or conditioning benefits be large enough to offset the fatigue you are putting into yourself.

Anyway, you are at the biggest Ironman training and racing discussion board on the planet, and loads of people have warned you against running Boston. I'd think about that. And I'd think about what my A race is and everything else I do would be aligned to that goal.

I'm only doing my first IM this year (and also shooting for Kona), but I agree, its' VERY clear that a 70.3 and IM bear little resemblance, except that the bike and swim training cross over very well for FOP athletes. The pace is much, much higher. Nutrition doesn't; seem nearly as critical.

The most value I get out of a 70.3, is comparing my times to other competitors that have done the same IM as me and looking at their splits as a kind of benchmark. Figuring that if I toe the line with similar fitness, execute nutrition and pacing strategy, then those are realistic splits I can hit.

Remember the title here.... "YOUR ONLY SHOT". Why compromise that with doing Boston? Boston will always be there. Yes, yes, it's a "special" year because of the bombings. But honestly, how special is any marathon when "exclusivity" is running with 35k+ competitors. Compare that to racing against 1500 of the best LC triathletes in the world.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [The Phoenix] [ In reply to ]
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Because the race is next month...
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [cbump] [ In reply to ]
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cbump wrote:
Because the race is next month...

My bad, I bet that Linsey Corbin wins for the women...
;0)
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [cbump] [ In reply to ]
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I thought he was doing im Los cabos in march ??
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [psoasminor] [ In reply to ]
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I also thought he was doing IMLC, I was there and looked for him....
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [lollice] [ In reply to ]
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Great thread - thanks WX for sharing your goals and everyone else for sharing your expertise. BTW, WX, did you end up running Boston?

Here's my experience of trying to qualify for Kona:

Age 30: first IM. Did my first marathon 5 months before the IM (2:52:46). Did my second marathon as a "training run" 7 weeks before the IM (2:54:xx). To give you some context, my background was that of a half decent runner (32:42 10km pb at 29yo). Crap swimmer. Longest swim 3km. Longest bike ride 158km. Longest run: 3 hours. Did as many short tris (2 sprint, 1 oly) and swim/run events leading up to IM as I could. Result: Swim, 1:14, Bike, 5:58, Run, 3:42. Total: 11:02 32nd in M30-34. Did not qualify.

Age 33: 2nd IM. No marathons. Did HIM (5:05) 2 months prior to IM. Longest swim: 3km Longest bike: 150km. One 5km (during sprint tri week before IM) run in 4 weeks prior to IM. Result: Swim 1:16, Bike: 5:55, Run: 4:20. Total 11:44. 65th M30-34. Did not qualify.

Age 37: 3rd IM. No marathons. No tris leading up to IM. Did swim technique course 6 weeks prior to IM. Longest run in 9 weeks prior to IM 1hr05. Stayed at race venue and trained on bike course for 3 weeks prior to race. Finally got that biking was key to a decent IM run. Longest swim 3.8km. Longest bike 180km. Result: Swim 1:11, Bike: 5:52 (hilly course, 1 puncture), Run:3:26. Total: 10:43. 17th M35-39. Did not qualify.

Age 39: 4th IM. No marathons. No tris leading up to IM. Did same swim technique course 6 weeks prior to IM. Longest swim: 3.8km. Longest bike: 180km. Longest run: 2:10 hours. Result: Swim 1:00, Bike 6:06 (hilly, windy, bonked badly at 110km between aid stations), run: 3:27. Total 10:41. 21st M35-39. Did not qualify.

Age 39: 5th IM. No marathons. Did 4th IM 3 months prior to this race. Two c. 170km Alpine cylco-sportifs 6 weeks prior to IM. Longest swim: 3.8km, longest bike 180km. Longest run 2:10 hours. Result: Swim 0:58, Bike 5:15 (rolling 3-lap course with one decent climb per lap), Run 3:23 (hilly course). Total: 9:44. 5th M35-39. Age group had 3 KQ slots initially. A 4th slot was added due to nobody finishing in M70+. 2nd and 4th in age group elected not to go to Kona. Qualified for Kona due to roll down.

Age 39: 6th IM (Kona), 9 weeks after qualifying. Good in some ways as it was easy to keep the fitness. Bad in that I was recovering from a calf injury sustained during qualifying. Result: Swim (non-wetsuit) 1:13, Bike 5:20, Run 3:31. Total 10:13. finished between 100th and 110th in M35-39.

Age 42: 7th IM. 1 marathon 5 months prior to IM (2:50:51). HIM 12 weeks prior to IM. 4:36 (S34, B2:32, R1:29 hilly bike and run). Half marathon (1:26) three weeks prior to IM. Longest swim: 4km. Longest Bike: 208km. Longest run: 2:10 hours. Result: Swim 1:03, Bike 5:13, Run 3:11. Total 9:34. 15th MPro. Did not qualify.

Observations:

- decent swim technique can save you many minutes (15+ in my case)
- bike fitness is crucial to a decent run, more so than running fitness.
- running an open marathon and running an IM marathon are two different beasts. It wasn't until my third IM that I learned how to run an IM marathon.
- if you are time-crunched, do your long work-outs and what ever else you can fit in. During my training for my last IM, outside my long runs and rides, my only running and biking was to and from work or the pool.
- I only qualified for Kona by luck. Lucky 2 guys ahead of me didn't want to go to Kona, lucky I was in the largest age-group of the race (~400), lucky there was an additional slot due to a DNF, lucky the pointy end of the field was very thin.
- it can take years to get good at IM

WX, thanks again for sharing your goals. I'm not a coach and I found this thread way too late to give you any meaningful advice. All the best for your one shot at Kona - I wish you well and above all, I wish you luck.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:

Be smart, 30% of all people toeing the IM start line will defeat themselves in the race. 20-30% defeated themselves in training getting to the race. You really only have to deal with 50% of your Ag that trained and raced smart at the end of the day. It's better to be in the smart 50% then the dumb 50%.

I think you can take these numbers and start with this:

80% of the field has no shot or for that matter intention on KQ.

Of the remaining 20% you only have to deal with the smart 50%. And the worse the conditions the more important it is to be smart.

I worry about what is going to happen at IMTX this year. Specifically the folks who got a gift from God Almighty at Galveston 70.3 and biked under 2:18 are going to try and shoot for sub 5 hour bike splits when they shouldn't.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [lollice] [ In reply to ]
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So what's the dealio on this guy? In his OP he def. says the race is IM Los Cabos.

trav

____________________________________________________
"As for "xxxxxx"...what can I say? You sound like a dick. If you don't want to answer the question, just shut up." AllezPappa
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [travisml] [ In reply to ]
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He changed to imtx somewhere in the thread to allow more training time.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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Just bumping for all to confirm that the OP registered for TX in May. I'll be checking back to see how it goes.

Any updates on your training?


WX wrote:
Thanks everyone for your inputs. Did not know I could come to ST for free marriage counseling - this could be the next big application of the wisdom of crowds.

From the feedback, I am going to put in a huge bike focus and see if that translates to some truly meaningful gains - I'm going to spend the next month ramping up volume and avoiding injury. The other big piece of news is that I officially just sent WTC $700 for IM Texas in May. The extra month and half of training (20% higher than my original total) will help make this impossible goal slightly less impossible.

Week 1 training summary:
(BST: Before ST)
Monday: Run 5m
Tuesday: Run 9m w/ 5@6:10 pace (MP)
(AST: After ST)
Wednesday: Bike 15m doing hill repeats, run 2m@5:30 (running last-minute errand)
Thursday: Bike 25m cruise w/ hills (~140bpm)
Friday: AM: Bike 12m, w/ 2x6' all out, 6' recovery. PM: run 6m, w/ 6x 2' on 2' off fartleks
Saturday: AM: Bike 15m, w/2x15' at threshold (what I can hold for 1hr), 5' recovery. PM: run 4m
Sunday: AM: Bike 15m@just below threshold. PM: Bike 18m cruise
Weekly total: 110m bike (7 hours), 26m run (3 hours)

Plan for next week - more biking! Do a HR max test, 2x20', and 5x6' workouts. Some questions:
1. I have trouble raising my HR above 170 on the bike, while I can raise my HR to 190+ running. Is that normal? My legs just feel like they're doing all they can.
2. As you can see, I don't have huge blocks of time for long bike rides. At this point, are these 45m-90m workouts good uses of time or do gains happen at the end of a 40/50-miler? How should I prioritize hill work vs. flat cranking?
3. Any other feedback always appreciated. Marriage is still going well. Just came back from a romantic weekend in Napa and bought wines for each of our next 10 anniversaries (optimism runs beyond just training goals).
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Furious D] [ In reply to ]
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Any update? How did Boston go?
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Cup] [ In reply to ]
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Cup wrote:
Any update? How did Boston go?


Thanks for the interest! So I did my last FTP test today so am pretty much set in terms of where I am going to be fitness-wise. I have one more week of higher quantity before beginning my 2-week taper on Monday.

Let's hope this + a good nutrition plan + some luck with get me there!

Swim: can do 1000scy sets (open turns) in 16:15, so roughly a 1:38/100 pace. Will be wearing a swim skin (let's say taking 2-3sec/100 off) but also will be in an open water washing machine. Best reasonable case is 1:12 for the IM swim.
Bike: FTP of 270, weight of 63.5kg, so ftp/kg of 4.25, which I'm reasonable happy with. Unfortunately IMTX is a pretty flat course so only headline watts matter Will be riding a P2 w/ carbon wheels + wheel cover, aero road helmet, pretty aggressive position. Aiming to ride at 72-73% of FTP so ~195 watts, which I think will put me in around 4:50-4:55 with no mechanicals. (I rode Miami 70.3 in 2:25 w/ worse position, no wheel cover, and a rear tire at 70psi @ 190W)
Run: I'm in solid 2:40-low open marathon shape (long runs @ 6:30 pace, 10-mile pace runs @ 6:10 pace). So according to Daniel's VDOT table, at 75-80%FT, my IM projected time is somewhere around 3:10-3:20.

3 projected slots at IMTX, with bubble boy being somewhere around 9:30 every year. If everything works out perfectly, I'll be in the 9:20's. If that doesn't get me a slot, I'll still be satisfied.

I listened (but didn't quite follow) everyone's advice for Boston. I ended up biking really hard the two days prior to the race and then running Boston in 3:14, with essentially a 20-mile long run around 7-min pace and a 6 mile jog around 8/8:30-min pace. High-fived cute babies, drank a beer w/ friends on Heartbreak, took pictures with people along the way. Never enjoyed a run more and felt fantastic. Picked up training within 2 days and haven't noticed any decline in performance.

I'm nervous, excited, relieved all at the same time. Can't wait.
Last edited by: WX: Apr 29, 14 20:33
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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thanks for the update, this has been fascinating and fun to follow. for a few fellow fitness aficionados. oh for fuck's sake

_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly good luck WX - its a great story to follow and I hope you make it. FWIW here's my advice for your race day. Really your training is done so the only variables you can now control are to get your nutrition right and pace the IM correctly.

I think your 4:50-4:55 bike time is a little ambitious (probably put you into Top 40/50 overall bike times), far better in my IMO to dial that back a bit with an aim of say a 5:00 - 5:05. I *think* this will give you a better chance of putting your run weapon into play and being able to run 3:15 or better.

To give you context I see many parallels with yourself. I had a goal of 1 IM to qualify for Kona, have a strong run (low 2:40 marathon shape for my IM) and I biked a 2:25 HIM (albeit on hot/windy course) 4 weeks before IM. My HIM and IM were both flat courses. My real focus was not to over bike so I could run well. In the event I rode 5:05 and felt very comfortable and ran a 3:21 (I expected to run 3:15 or better). The mistake on my run was to go too hard in the 1st half (went through halfway in around 1:32) because I felt so good off the bike - had I paced the run better I *think* I'd have had a good shot at sub 3:15.

Not saying this is the right advice for you, just giving you my experience for my 1st IM given we had the same goal and are probably a similar ability on bike and run.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds to me like your well-positioned and have a solid game plan for Texas. Unfortunately, ST must demand your bib number so we can follow your progress online!
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