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Re: the hierarchy of aero [corneliused] [ In reply to ]
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corneliused wrote:
I know this is old, but I'd sure like to know, which would you guess is faster for a typical age grouper with a slowtwitch approved position, PI octane, or Body Paint 2.0? Do you recall any issues with loose sleeves on the octane?
Thanks!

I have both the octane and the body paint 2.0 skin suit. You can't swim in the body paint and it would take a long time to change into it in T1. and you can't run in it. The octane is designed for tri so you can do all 3 sports in it, but if you want to change in or out of it, it's quicker than the body paint. If you get the right size it's very tight everywhere, no loose sleeves or wrinkles and it's cool. But if I was doing a cycling TT I'd wear the body paint.

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Re: the hierarchy of aero [jockette21] [ In reply to ]
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jockette21 wrote:
Hello,

I have found this a very interesting thread. I am a new triathlete riding a CAAD10 road bike in sprint distance races. I have a pretty decent shot at making the worlds team in the sprint distance race in august. This has become my primary goal. Eventually I would be interested in racing 70.3's but iron distance does not appeal to me at all. Back to my main question. The guys at my bike shop don't think being aero (and having an aero helmet) will have much of an impact on such short race. I really have no way of knowing because I am so new to this.

I am pretty sure I am not racing in an aero set up at all. So what is my best course of action?? I intend on working on the engine regardless.

1. New bike fit on a road bike and invest in race wheels?

2. New tribike?

3.???

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!!!

for a sprint I wouldn't really bother (personally).
for a 70.3 being aero makes a much bigger difference, and the biggest gains will most likely come from your body position, so getting a good fitting tri bike might be a good idea if doing well at the 70.3 distance (or even olympic distance) is your goal.

____________________________________

Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [jockette21] [ In reply to ]
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jockette21 wrote:
Hello,

I have found this a very interesting thread. I am a new triathlete riding a CAAD10 road bike in sprint distance races. I have a pretty decent shot at making the worlds team in the sprint distance race in august. This has become my primary goal. Eventually I would be interested in racing 70.3's but iron distance does not appeal to me at all. Back to my main question. The guys at my bike shop don't think being aero (and having an aero helmet) will have much of an impact on such short race. I really have no way of knowing because I am so new to this.

I am pretty sure I am not racing in an aero set up at all. So what is my best course of action?? I intend on working on the engine regardless.

1. New bike fit on a road bike and invest in race wheels?

2. New tribike?

3.???

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!!!

For what it's worth from an age grouper, 215 lbs, doing tri's for 5 years that shoots for 20+ on sprint. I have a Rudy Wingspan. When I first got it, I rode my local race route consisting of a 14 mile rectangle (5, 2, 5, 2) 1 week after riding the same route. 45 sec improvement. I thought the 2nd run was slightly windier and my legs tired. Highly doubt I can give the helmet credit for the whole improvement, but 1 week of additional fitness would have maybe added 5 sec. An aero helmet is cheap free speed, although if not riding aero, highly doubt you'd get the same advantage. I haven't ridden a decent road bike to know the difference between one and a TT bike. If it's a hilly course, could possibly be a push, but I can't get up hills worth a d&mn. On a flat course, I would imagine a TT bike faster, but I'll let an expert answer that.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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The difference is approximately the same in terms of how it will affect your placing no matter the distance.

robgray wrote:
for a sprint I wouldn't really bother (personally).
for a 70.3 being aero makes a much bigger difference, and the biggest gains will most likely come from your body position, so getting a good fitting tri bike might be a good idea if doing well at the 70.3 distance (or even olympic distance) is your goal.



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Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [jockette21] [ In reply to ]
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jockette21 wrote:
The guys at my bike shop don't think being aero (and having an aero helmet) will have much of an impact on such short race. I really have no way of knowing because I am so new to this.


A common misconception. In fact, in a short race, you stand to gain more with aerodynamic improvements than in a long race. You won't save as much time in absolute terms (i.e. minutes) in a short race compared to a long one, but you'll save more time in relative terms (i.e. percent of bike split). The reason for this is that power to overcome aerodynamic drag is proportional to speed cubed, making this term relatively more important at the higher speeds encountered in shorter races. The relative gains are what really matter. In a shorter race, there will be smaller time differentials deciding the results.

Your best course of action is probably to get a tri bike. Most people can achieve their optimal tri position (for aerodynamics, power and comfort) more easily on a tri bike than on a road bike due to differences in geometry. But not always. A small minority of people with very upright positions or freakish proportions may be better served by a road bike. Your position should be your #1 priority, as per Jim@EROsports' first post in this thread. Ideally, you would buy a tri bike and have enough left in the budget for a fit as well.

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Last edited by: Cody Beals: Jan 11, 14 18:53
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [jockette21] [ In reply to ]
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jockette21 wrote:
The guys at my bike shop don't think being aero (and having an aero helmet) will have much of an impact on such short race.


I have a big problem with that statement. It doesn't matter how long, 100 yards or 100 miles, the race is, aero is still aero. It's simple physics. Lower drag = higher speed for a given power. There is no less reason to be an a super aero setup during a sprint than there is during an Ironman. You will still have the same reduction of drag.

Now what they may have been trying to get at, but in the wrong manner, is that if the course is EXTREMELY technical or your tt bike handling skills are not up to par, cornering could be slower when riding your tt bike. Typically sprint courses will have more turns per mile than an Ironman, which often include extremely long straights or sections with no turns.

ETA: Looks like Cody beat me to it.
Last edited by: JTolandTRI: Jan 11, 14 19:35
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [jockette21] [ In reply to ]
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The CAAD10 is a great starter bike to build on and I would suggest adding some low hanging fruit to it.

Clip on aerobars, fast forward seatpost, Xlabs BTA, LG Course or Specialized Evade helmet, GP400 tires w/latex tubes and fit.

Ride the trainer using sufferfest and trainer road over the winter and focus on increasing your ftp and making you pedal stroke more efficient.

Power meter would be nice but you can add that later.
Last edited by: dannyh: Jan 18, 14 5:45
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Beating a dead horse here but had another question on long sleeves ...

How important is fabric? Would a custom made tri-suit (w/elbow length sleeves) - from a company like Nimblewear - achieve the desired effect? Or would I be better to go with the PI Octane?

Thanks.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Nunchuck_Canuck] [ In reply to ]
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Nunchuck_Canuck wrote:
Beating a dead horse here but had another question on long sleeves ...

How important is fabric? Would a custom made tri-suit (w/elbow length sleeves) - from a company like Nimblewear - achieve the desired effect? Or would I be better to go with the PI Octane?

Thanks.

The type of fabric used is extremely important. Remember, your skin is "skin tight" but, unfortunately, the surface material isn't very good for aerodynamic purposes. All else being equal, long sleeves are better than short.

There's no such thing as beating a dead horse when it comes to aero! There are suits faster than the Octane on their way. Tri suits will evolve much further this year.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Nunchuck_Canuck wrote:
Beating a dead horse here but had another question on long sleeves ...

How important is fabric? Would a custom made tri-suit (w/elbow length sleeves) - from a company like Nimblewear - achieve the desired effect? Or would I be better to go with the PI Octane?

Thanks.


The type of fabric used is extremely important. Remember, your skin is "skin tight" but, unfortunately, the surface material isn't very good for aerodynamic purposes. All else being equal, long sleeves are better than short.

There's no such thing as beating a dead horse when it comes to aero! There are suits faster than the Octane on their way. Tri suits will evolve much further this year.

Jim, don't leave us haning like that ; )
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote]

The type of fabric used is extremely important. Remember, your skin is "skin tight" but, unfortunately, the surface material isn't very good for aerodynamic purposes. All else being equal, long sleeves are better than short.

There's no such thing as beating a dead horse when it comes to aero! There are suits faster than the Octane on their way. Tri suits will evolve much further this year.[/quote]
Is the Skinfit Streamliner one those faster suits you were talking about?
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim, between the Octane, the new Castelli Body Paint SR Tri Suit SS, and Champion Apex, any thoughts?
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
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I have been looking at this as well and this is what I have found. It's not only the Octane, the Castelli Body Paint SR Tri suit SS, and Champion Systems. Like previously mentioned, there is the Skinfit suit. What about the Castelli Stealth T1 long sleeve. Plus, Jim was really wanting to test the DeSoto Coolwings as well. If they tested well, that would be the best bang for the buck. But, who knows who else is trying to jump in the aero tri suit ring?

Looking at the information, however...As Heath Dotson mentioned in their Aero Camp, we know the Octane tests well, if worn correctly, meaning tight.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...Aero_Camp__P4943130/
Castelli says they have tested in the wind tunnel with 24w or so savings in Watts for the SS suit. More for a long sleeve suit.
http://issuu.com/...ng?e=2137948/6588117
Skinfit talks about wind tunnel testing but no numbers to come by.
http://skinfitusa.com/...ri-suit-streamliner/
Then the Champion Systems and Coolwings with just possibilities but no data released, yet. Again, aerodynamics is individual. But, it would be nice to know a general frame work.

Anyone else find any other information? New line of clothing? Aero testing?
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Racing Yoda] [ In reply to ]
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No results unfortunately but Fusion I believe have a similar short sleeved trisuit in the pipeline.

I've used their gear for a while now and it's good quality stuff so I'll be interested to see how that tests if it appears.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Racing Yoda] [ In reply to ]
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I've heard this suit is pretty aero



Sorry, I couldn't resist.



"4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul"
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [warwicke36] [ In reply to ]
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It was only a matter of time before that happened.

I like the idea of not worrying about putting anything on (sleeves) so I narrowed down to the three but like the above haven't found much.

right now, I'm leaning whatever one I can find at the best price until Jim (or someone) provides some guidance. I think under armour is out :)
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [warwicke36] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, that's out there but the big talk during the Olympics was how fast those suits tested against the other suits. But.....I wonder if that means UA is no longer in the aero garment discussion :). \pink?
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [jockette21] [ In reply to ]
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I'll go with 3 & 2

A tri bike will save you a fair bit of time vs a road bike if it fits right.
I'd argue (correctly I might add) that you can buy all the aero helmets, skin suits fancy aero water bottles but unless you test each of those in a wind tunnel/velodrome/field testing your aero helmet may be saving you :20 while another aero helmet may save you 2 min. An aero bottle may or may not be faster than a round bottle, and I've seen the PI Octane cost end up being slower than regular race kit on more than 1 person.

If I wasn't going to get tested I'd buy on trends. I'd choose the equipment that made the majority of people the fastest or tested in the top 1-3 pieces of equipment for a large swath of people. Might not be the fastest but probably not the worst either.

Brian Stover USAT LII
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
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I've been wondering the same thing; however, I did find some information explaining the difference between the Castelli Tri Free and Body Paint suits based on this link: http://forum.castelli-cycling.com/...i-free-or-body-paint, which states:

"Free is best for overall aerodynamics (wind tunnel-tested aero fabric across mid-lowr back) and temperature regulation in hot-weather racing environments (lighter-gauge fabrics in garment) (we have to assume, in this day & age, that the vast majority of athletes race with either a speedskin or wetsuit over their trisuit, so I place a much higher priority on aerodynamics vs. hydro, as the suit will be covered in the water anyway…). BP is best if you value the ultimate combination in fit, comfort and muscle support (minimal seams, higher-gauge fabric which provides a great blend of muscular support/compression while not being overly restrictive)".

I recently ordered and received the Octane and Castelli Free so I could compare them in terms of fit and material. In terms of fit, there's a big difference in the sleeves. The Castelli Free sleeves stop in the middle of your bicep and are a lot tighter. The Octane sleeves covers more skin and goes down to your elbow. There is also more flexibility in the armpit area for swimming (although not sure you would tell in a wetsuit?). The downside or tradeoff for the added flexibility is the Octane sleeves are looser and have the potential for wrinkles if your arms look like pipe cleaners (note, the rest of the Octane fits tight). The fabric on the Octane is consistent throughout the entire suit, while the Castelli has different fabric on the sleeves vs. the aero material on the mid-lower back. Lastly, I ordered a small in both (I'm 5'8" 140lbs). The Castelli Free is definitely a tighter fitting suit and I see why some people order a size up.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [smarty] [ In reply to ]
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Do you think that the Octane suit could be tailored to fit around the arms without destroying the fabric? I have normal sized arms (I don't swim).
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Lphc4L] [ In reply to ]
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If I remember correctly, Jim@ERO mentioned that custom aero clothing is probably the next big thing, so I think the answer is yes.

For a comparison, my arms measure 11" (across the bicep). Based on my Octane fit, I think arms < 11" would most likely have wrinkles and need tailoring, and/or a few trips to the weight room.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [scofflaw] [ In reply to ]
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Ignore all that. 7.0 for an FTP and you can ride the beach cruiser to a sub 4 ironman bike split!
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim,

Are you able to comment on when this year or anything we should have our eyes out for? I'm looking for a race kit for later this summer, so I can wait if it mes sense and there will be better options by July.


Shut up legs.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
  1. Position
  2. Clothing
  3. Helmet or Wheels
  4. Helmet or Wheels
  5. Clean front end (i.e.cables)
  6. Proper hydration setup
  7. Frame
Castelli Body Paint II seems to be very consistently fast. Champion Systems is coming out with a VERY good skin suit. For tri, you're giving up minutes if you're not using a Pearl Izumi Tri Octane. Seriously, that suit is amazing.

I am teetering on the edge of getting the SkinFit Streamliner.

Does anyone have a review on this sucker?

http://www.athlinks.com/athletes/208730390
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [jstoveld] [ In reply to ]
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jstoveld wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:

  1. Position
  2. Clothing
  3. Helmet or Wheels
  4. Helmet or Wheels
  5. Clean front end (i.e.cables)
  6. Proper hydration setup
  7. Frame

Castelli Body Paint II seems to be very consistently fast. Champion Systems is coming out with a VERY good skin suit. For tri, you're giving up minutes if you're not using a Pearl Izumi Tri Octane. Seriously, that suit is amazing.


I am teetering on the edge of getting the SkinFit Streamliner.

Does anyone have a review on this sucker?

Don't specialize claim the greatest saving of all is the cheapest, shave your legs?


If you are sure you will fail, or convinced you will succeed, you are probably right.....
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