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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Back to the OP:

Again, thanks very much for answering these questions. A supplementary: earlier in the thread, I think I read you were experiencing good things with the Torhans 30. In your opinion, is the benefit due to it creating a fairing effect and mimicking a long front "wing" as it transitions to the headtube, or is the benefit from the superior t30 trailing edge?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [JTolandTRI] [ In reply to ]
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JTolandTRI wrote:
Somewhat afraid of what a tailor may think will work/try to do with a spandex like material that gets put under pretty high load. I might try it down the road. For now I am going to wait and see. Would like to get my hands on one of the Castelli Stealth T1 tops as I could swim/bike in that and then ditch it for the run.

Fabric glue works wonders, and will definitely hold under load. Get an accomplice to pin it up while you're in position, fold and glue, and you're set. I did a prototype using a set of armcoolers and a craft stretchy cooling top and it was rock solid. Got the stuff at Walmart iirc.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [davetallo] [ In reply to ]
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davetallo wrote:
Back to the OP:

Again, thanks very much for answering these questions. A supplementary: earlier in the thread, I think I read you were experiencing good things with the Torhans 30. In your opinion, is the benefit due to it creating a fairing effect and mimicking a long front "wing" as it transitions to the headtube, or is the benefit from the superior t30 trailing edge?

For me it did not work well. I have a p5-3, so I don't have the front fairing/nose cone. I could not get the bottle close enough to the headtube with the bars I was running (Ventus). Those that it worked well for were those that had bayonet style head tubes. I *think* the real trick to getting those bottle to work really well is to have them close to the headtube. My gut says that it extends the chord of the front of the bike in this case.

If someone were to ask me about the bottle and they had a bayonet style front (p5-6, SC, Felt, Orbea) I would recommend the bottles for sure.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
AeroCamp February 25-26, 2020 A2 Wind Tunnel
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
davetallo wrote:
Back to the OP:

Again, thanks very much for answering these questions. A supplementary: earlier in the thread, I think I read you were experiencing good things with the Torhans 30. In your opinion, is the benefit due to it creating a fairing effect and mimicking a long front "wing" as it transitions to the headtube, or is the benefit from the superior t30 trailing edge?


For me it did not work well. I have a p5-3, so I don't have the front fairing/nose cone. I could not get the bottle close enough to the headtube with the bars I was running (Ventus). Those that it worked well for were those that had bayonet style head tubes. I *think* the real trick to getting those bottle to work really well is to have them close to the headtube. My gut says that it extends the chord of the front of the bike in this case.

If someone were to ask me about the bottle and they had a bayonet style front (p5-6, SC, Felt, Orbea) I would recommend the bottles for sure.

Sadly won't work with -6 due to Aduro "integrated" bottle mount (the little carbon plate that goes from collet to collet to support forward bottle mount bolt). I was sad when I realized that post-ordering.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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could you not carefully remove that part? i'd like to myself
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jeffp] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed on wanting it gone. But not willing to make it so
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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i have a couple aduro parts i want removed
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [FrostyJ] [ In reply to ]
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FrostyJ wrote:
I feel this thread have somewhat derailed and the testing that was performed taking out of context.

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)

FWIW, this thread makes me feel like little context has been provided for the data shared. Random number generators will give you a black/white answer - and, smart people will craft a line of reasoning that is supported by those outputs. That's what smart people do - try to find meaning/patterns in stuff. This behavior is also what can lead them to believe weird things.

Oh, yeah, and I'm not suggesting it's feasible to do 15-20 repeats of every configuration. I've been on a variety of sides of this kind of deal (customer, observer, director, etc...) and understand that compromises need to be made. It takes awhile to find what works better and what doesn't work quite as well from a test design perspective. I still haven't found the perfect method, but it is fun trying to.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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We did at least 10 laps on each setup but each lap is measured. So is that 10 runs?

No. It depends on how much data you need so that random variables that aren't accounted for average out. In the velodrome the big one would be position related.
Your posture might evolve and drift during the day for better or worse. Getting off the bike or just standing awhile and sitting back down would be helpful. Taking the helmet off and putting it back on. Same with skinsuits.

If you can establish that your baseline is reliable +-X% by actually testing it at several points throughout the day, then you have some idea what you are working with. If you don't establish it, you don't have a clue.

I'd still test each configuration at least 3 times throughout the day. If you can get a good measurement with 5 laps instead of 10, that's fine... but you need to switch things up. If a configuration obviously sucks then sure you can drop it.

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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Fastyellow wrote:
If you were doing the testing, how many laps would be a "run" and how many times would you do that for each change? Keep in mind that you are riding, not sitting in a wind tunnel.

Here's a sample run using the work per lap bootstrap method I've evolved to:



despite what the stated CV was for this run, when this same configuration is tested over multiple days/runs, the CV comes out nearer to 2% (or more) for CxA...a little worse for Crr. so, if you are doing science, it'll take a lot of runs to give your experimental protocol/method the power to detect a 1% difference at, say, a 95% confidence level => 16*(2/1)^2 runs as a estimate.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Any insider info on these new long sleeve tri-clothing? Champ Sys has the one piece one for $200ish I think, but I'm more interested in the top only and better designs. Waiting for it to be more mass produced and sold as top/bottom. It will reduce my use of sunblock and cover more arm area, I can also use it in both road riding and racing (I only use tri tops on races or OWS to hold my HR strap on). Thanks again for your input, helps us AG'ers a lot considering most of us rely on eye-tunnel.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)

Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian,

Regarding the Speed Concepts, I noticed on the home page article that both riders had aero bottles on the down tube, did that set up seem to yield better results than no bottle? Also Rebecca was running what looks like a Profile bottle though it might have been a Tor Hans, do you know if that tested faster than without. I understand all this is rider specific but I am curious. Lastly was the Bell helmet the faster helmet for you and did it generally yield a solid result?

steven
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [spr-2-cus] [ In reply to ]
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spr-2-cus wrote:
Brian,

Regarding the Speed Concepts, I noticed on the home page article that both riders had aero bottles on the down tube, did that set up seem to yield better results than no bottle? Also Rebecca was running what looks like a Profile bottle though it might have been a Tor Hans, do you know if that tested faster than without. I understand all this is rider specific but I am curious. Lastly was the Bell helmet the faster helmet for you and did it generally yield a solid result?

steven

Both SC was tested with aero bottles on the seat tubes. Rebecca had a bonty bottle and I had a PF bottle. Neither of us tested without the bottle. I can't speak for Rebecca but I keep my nutrition in the aero bottle on the seat tube so it will be there regardless so I felt no need to test without it.

I don't remember exactly what Rebecca tested up front. I know she tested a bta bottle, the PF bottle and the TH 20. The TH 20 tesdted fastest for her.



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [asad137] [ In reply to ]
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asad137 wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)


Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!

One way to build trust and loyalty is through complete transparency.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [spr-2-cus] [ In reply to ]
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http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=4947021#4947021

I think that may answer your SC questions or FrostyJ may have if that doesn't.

The Giro A2 was the 2nd fastest helmet, the Selector was the fastest for me. The only Bell I tested was the 20+ yr old Bell Meteor. The Selector we had came from UHC cycling team. They were sponsored by Bell helmets, which Giro owns, and therefore had access to both helmets. That may have caused some confusion. I did, just to be safe, buy a Bell Javelin from TriSports the other day though. It's something I'll test at aero camp V2.0.

Brian Stover USAT L1
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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BikeTechReview wrote:
asad137 wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)


Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!


One way to build trust and loyalty is through complete transparency.
.
Umm...I don't think any of us give a shit about building trust and loyalty. We were simply referring to asking us questions about our experience. If you have an issue with the protocol of the testing, shoot an email over to Jim Manton at ERO and you two can have it out. It is also up to him if he wants to give you all the insights you desire since it's his system. If you can devise a better one, have at it...you'd probably make a lot of money. It's obvious you question the veracity of the testing and I don't think anyone who attended the camp really wants a typical ST showdown of people that think they are smarter than each other. Most of the people who attended the camp know that if they show the specifics it's probably going to end that way (no matter who's right or wrong). So, head on over to the Velodrome, check it out for yourself, and you can do a grand article on what you think.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Have you been able to do any comparative testing of Specialized Evade vs. LG Course helmets? If yes, anything you could share with us?
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Did anyone test typical cycling gloves vs no gloves vs aero gloves? Sorry if this was already addressed earlier in this thread.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | TriRig | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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Fastyellow wrote:
Umm...I don't think any of us give a shit about building trust and loyalty.

I would think that the OP and the person using the system on a weekly basis would be interested in those things. But, I could be wrong!

Quote:
<snip>...you'd probably make a lot of money.

I don't think I could do field testing with folks off the street any better, and even if someone could...Well, it's possible they'd make some money, but, realistically most people don't give a shit about these sorts of things. We do live in the age of "information is a commodity" these days, eh?

Quote:
So, head on over to the Velodrome, check it out for yourself,<snip>.

I've tested over there before, I might learn something new revisiting it, you're right. It's been about 10 years since my first field test by powermeter, and it's still a tricky piece of work.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Curious about this myself.
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [GMAN19030] [ In reply to ]
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GMAN19030 wrote:
Did anyone test typical cycling gloves vs no gloves vs aero gloves? Sorry if this was already addressed earlier in this thread.

I don't believe so as the group were triathletes and pretty much only testing triathlon setups.


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [BikeTechReview] [ In reply to ]
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Another way to is to conduct yourself with grace.



BikeTechReview wrote:
asad137 wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)


Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!

One way to build trust and loyalty is through complete transparency.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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They aren't mutually exclusive are they? Fwiw I haven't come to any conclusions yet. Just observed some funky data and tried to put these data into some sort of context by asking some questions.

You compile a lot of data Jack, what do you think of what has been shared in this thread?

jackmott wrote:
Another way to is to conduct yourself with grace.



BikeTechReview wrote:
asad137 wrote:
BikeTechReview wrote:

Yeah, I can see how it might feel like that. The title of the thread is "Ask us anything...", so I figured I'd ask how many repeats were done and what the results were. If folks don't want to provide those specific answers, well, then, maybe the thread title should be changed? ;-)


Hey, just because they said to ask anything doesn't mean they'll answer anything!

One way to build trust and loyalty is through complete transparency.

=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
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Re: Ask us anything about Aero Camp [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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It's obvious you question the veracity of the testing and I don't think anyone who attended the camp really wants a typical ST showdown of people that think they are smarter than each other. Most of the people who attended the camp know that if they show the specifics it's probably going to end that way (no matter who's right or wrong).

I'm not the person you were answering, but I question the veracity of pretty much everything. This is science... statistical analysis and running controlled tests isn't exactly a black art. If the specifics are revealed, then isn't that a good thing regardless? Good for people who wish to *know* anyway. Not necessarily good for the operators (since it might go either way), but I'd think definitely good for the participants. You should consider yourself lucky that people with knowledge about these things (and no dog in the hunt) would be willing to spend their time for free and post their thoughts and analysis publically! I know I am grateful whenever that happens.

So, head on over to the Velodrome, check it out for yourself, and you can do a grand article on what you think.

I think Kraig could do that pretty easily... I hope he does.
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