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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Stephen Seiler] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for contribute to the discussion since the discussion is about your research.

One question I think many triathletes have is: how do you do intervals over three different sports.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Stephen Seiler] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for your post Stephen (Sorry for referring to you as the American chap earlier).

I have a question that is slightly related to Maurice's above.

Firstly, I have always considered the area been FTP and VO2max as a danger area, so 100-105% FTP, as I regarded this area as being too taxing, both during the session and with subsequent sessions, but without a significant physiological benefit. I.e. you were between two attack points of physiology so to speak, lactate threshold and VO2max.
I always thought it was best to either go under FTP, or over Vo2max.

Also, am I right in thinking that the 106% FTP being VO2max often quoted is this (in most people) is the lowest intensity that VO2max can be achieved given enough time?

Further to this, is there any benefit in knowing your VO2 kinetics and your ramp to VO2max, and would this dictate the length of interval. Presuming that the time spent at VO2max is what you are after? Surely someone who takes over 3 minutes to ramp to VO2max should be doing more than 3 minutes an interval.

And finally! Would you consider the idea that increasing each session/each week the duration during the session that you can spend at the desired intensity as a logical goal/marker for performance improvement?
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Marcell_S] [ In reply to ]
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Marcell_S wrote:
Also, am I right in thinking that the 106% FTP being VO2max often quoted is this (in most people) is the lowest intensity that VO2max can be achieved given enough time?

That is not correct. You might want to google "slow component"
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Stephen Seiler] [ In reply to ]
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Really appreciate your post here, thanks.

If possible I would like your opinion regarding the so called "sweet spot" training.
Being just below the threshold it would fall in the upper part of the "yellow" Zone 2 (in the 3 zones model) and quite disregarded in the polarized model.
At least in cycling, it actually seems to give great benefit in terms of improving the threshold FTP/CP meaning that it causes what you called good "intracellular signalling for adaptation" (probably because it allows large volume at good intensity without much disruption).
Unfortunately I think there is no much literature about that, I am talking both from personal and others experience and from others, and would be good to have your opinion.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [dmorris] [ In reply to ]
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Cool thanks.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [mobix] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to know the answer to this too as I seem to have found benefits from sweetspot work.
Could it be that when talking about these physiological adaptations sweetspot is just too low? Despite the fact that it can result in relatively high duration.

I also came across an interesting study the other day which supported this point from a different angle.

It compared two groups of runners completing intervals at Vo2max speed, one with an interval duration of 60% Tmax (time that Vo2max speed could be maintained) and the other with 70%.
The 60% group improved most, despite the shorter interval, but this was because despite the shorter interval they completed more of them in each session so completed more work over the duration of the study.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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I definitely want to redouble this appreciation. Big thanks to Stephen for swinging by (and you for reaching out to him).

I'll try and take a stab at your question: I'd weigh the distribution of interval sessions appropriate to your "focus" block (as it's nigh impossible, and arguably imprudent, to maintain pure balance between the 3 sports at any one point in the year). My second weighing factor would be towards placing more of my interval tickets into my weakest sport, as that's where I'm most hoping to elicit response. My third weighing factor is towards which sport I can effectively recover/"live to fight another day" in the most.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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So what would these workout looks like in Trainer Road?

I currently have a "polarized" workout built after a similar discussion last year that's :
6x4min at 110% FTP with 4min rest between.

Now I'd like to build one that is:
4x8min with 2min rest, but what would I target for % FTP?

From my previous "bests" my 5min max would be about 120% of FTP and my best 10min would be about 110%. I supposed the only way to find out is to try...
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Bill] [ In reply to ]
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I like his accent

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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [BoyWithACoin] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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the big ole AMURRICAN one.

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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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I am not familiar with how Trainingroad works so my advice will be more general.
You do not need to change from 4 minutes intervals to 8 minutes. The goal should be to get close to 30 minutes in the interval zone.
You can do 6x5, 8x4, 10x3, etc.
But I think you should have shorter rest than 4 minutes. I use 2 minutes on my 6x5 minutes intervals for both run and bike,
Hope that helps :-)
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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It's less than your 10 min/110% ftp.

I think that is where he is going with 4x8 instead of 4x4. 4 minute efforts tend to get done close to VO2max, but that is a demanding workout, and more intensity than needed. With the 8 minute effort you have to slow it down to complete the workout, and you get the same effect from the intensity but more effect from the duration (or in other terms, 32 min is better than 16 min). 110% is likely near your VO2 max, but you don't have to go that hard and then you can get by on a shorter recovery period. I wouldn't be surprised to see it as the % FTP you can do for 35-45 minutes.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
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Aqua Man wrote:
So what would these workout looks like in Trainer Road?

I currently have a "polarized" workout built after a similar discussion last year that's :
6x4min at 110% FTP with 4min rest between.

Now I'd like to build one that is:
4x8min with 2min rest, but what would I target for % FTP?

From my previous "bests" my 5min max would be about 120% of FTP and my best 10min would be about 110%. I supposed the only way to find out is to try...
They would look the same as if you were on the actual road.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Marcell_S] [ In reply to ]
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Marcell_S wrote:
I would like to know the answer to this too as I seem to have found benefits from sweetspot work.
Could it be that when talking about these physiological adaptations sweetspot is just too low? Despite the fact that it can result in relatively high duration.

I also came across an interesting study the other day which supported this point from a different angle.

It compared two groups of runners completing intervals at Vo2max speed, one with an interval duration of 60% Tmax (time that Vo2max speed could be maintained) and the other with 70%.
The 60% group improved most, despite the shorter interval, but this was because despite the shorter interval they completed more of them in each session so completed more work over the duration of the study.
My understanding of what SS is saying is do more work at a higher level, in whatever chunks of time allow you to do that.
So maybe as an example, and I'm making shit up here, but if you can do 15x2' at 115% FTP! that better than 7x2 @ 130%. Or something like that.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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Hi,

Research I did with Arne Guellich at the German Sports Federation on 51 national team junior track pursuit riders suggested that that which distinguished responders (increased power at 4mM blood lactate) from non responders to a 15 week training period was actually that the non responders trained more in the lactate threshold to MLSS intensity range. Wacky I know, but that is what the data showed. Responders had more sub threshold training volume. Also, our interval training study on recreational cyclists suggested that accumulating 32 minutes of work at 90% HR max (9 mM blood lactate) induced positive changes in both fractional utilization and VO2 max. So, my thought would be to move some of the threshold trainin to long interval training. I find that interval durations of 7-10 minutes "force" athletes into the appropriate intensity. Rest duration 2 min. Two time gold medalist single sculler Olaf Tufter had 6 x 10 minutes at 90% as a bread and butter workout. For example, in his 2008 gold medal year, he performed that training session 27 times.

The two articles I refer to and many more are actually available to anyone interested on Researchgate.net.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Bill] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty awesome that Seiler chimed in.

Before anyone does anything crazy with their training I'd say step back from the ledge. I read a lot of posts where you're seeing trees but not the forest. Study the big picture, then leap. Although a few of you already jumped and forgot to pack parachutes.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Marcell_S] [ In reply to ]
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Well, actually our work with elite endurance athletes suggests that the zone your describe which is above MLSS but below VO2 max (~89-93% of max heart rate typically in well trained) is a really effective training intensity. In the Norwegian system, this is zone 4 of 5 aerobic zones. Seems that athletes can accumulate a lot of minutes there and stimulate adaptation, without digging too deep of a hole for themselves stresswise. And, they race well in zone 5, so the adaptations transfer up a zone :-) We think it also transfers down to threshold intensity, which is probably more imporant for triathletes.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [mobix] [ In reply to ]
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I only know sweet spots from tennis rackets and baseball bats :-)

The zone 1 vs zone 2 question (both being below the first lactate turnpoint in the 5 zone system we use a lot here in Norway) is interesting. There is no physiological marker distinguishing these two "zones". I suspect that with really high training volumes and really big motors, elite guys move move their Low intensity work down a little into zone 1 just because that zone widens. However, more recreational athletes will spend more time just under threshold intensity.

I also am still of the opinion that 3 zones works quite well for most people: Green zone (talking intensity, starts feeling like you are working after an hour, feel like eating as soon as you are finished, Yellow Zone (threshold, typical zone for those 45-60 minute workouts you hustle to squeeze in after work, pretty tough workout, but you did not have to go near your personal cellar of mental fortitude to finish), Red zone (requires mental mobilization, clear increasing perception of effort with every interval bout, no appetite for about an hour after training). And of course the most common training mistake is that a green zone session becomes yellow because of half wheeling, and the next day's planned red zone session fades to uhhhh....pink. Show me a champion and I will show you a person with intensity discipline who plans the work and works the plan, even on days when someone rides past them that they know they could reel in :-)
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
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Since there seem to be interest in just what high intensity workouts are best, I have provided some information from our website on this. Everyone can take this for what it is worth. I am sure it will not be accepted by many here. These are the ideas of Jan Olbrecht who has worked with many high level athletes as well as recreational athletes.

Olbrecht looks at most of training as the development of both the aerobic and anaerobic systems. Hence each workout is evaluated on how it affects each system. Nearly every workout will have both positive and negative effects. Some workouts could actually have only negative effects and obviously should be avoided. But there is no workout that has only positive effects. So each negative effect must be offset by another workout with positive effects. Training is thus a long process of give and take, slowly building the aerobic system and adjusting the anaerobic energy system which rarely is best when it is maximal. There are no magic workouts or sweet spots because the training process is complicated with each workout having a different objective.

The types of workouts that work best at this process seem to be at opposite ends of the intensity spectrum with occasional workouts in the middle range. Hence the concept of hi-lo or polarized training.

For a different point of view on high intensity work for a triathlete one has to distinguish between whether the athlete's aerobic or anaerobic system is the target of the workout. If the target is the anaerobic system then Olbrecht recommends sprints. See

http://www.lactate.com/...hlon/trex1.htm#exrun

The athlete in this example is an elite triathlete for which one may speculate on just who it is (site written in 1998)

There are four different prescriptions on anaerobic training advice depending on whether the event that the athlete is training for is an Olympic length event or an Ironman and whether the time period is base training or pre-competition. Here are the four different types of anaerobic workouts.

Preparation for Olympic length event - base preparation

anaerobic conditioning - In a RR week (reduced training) there should be no anaerobic training sets or at most one. During a normal week there will be one or two anaerobic training sets depending upon the emphasis of running (compared to swimming and cycling) that week. The intervals should be 100-200 m, there should not be more than 6 consecutive repetitions, and the maximum distance should be less than 2000 m. It is important that the athlete do each interval at near maximum speed. If the intervals are not done at near max speed they are a waste of time. It is better to do fewer at near max speed then more at just a fast speed.

If at any time the athlete can not complete the interval at the near maximum speed then they should stop even if it is only 3 intervals. Also if the athlete does a workout consisting of 2 x 6 x 150 then the two sets should be separated by an extensive or regenerative exercise of least 50 minutes. There should be 1-2 minutes rest between each interval.

If the anaerobic capacity had been high instead, then the anaerobic training sets would be reduced but with longer intervals.


Preparation for Olympic length event -pre-competition

anaerobic conditioning - No set in a RR week (reduced training). During a normal week there will be one or two anaerobic training sets depending upon the emphasis of running that week. If the anaerobic capacity is high instead, then the frequency of anaerobic training sets will be reduced.


Preparation for Ironman length event - base preparation

anaerobic conditioning - We try to improve the anaerobic capacity by one or two training sessions per week for 3 out of 5 weeks of a mesocycle. An example of an anaerobic capacity training session is 8 sets of 6 intervals of 70-150 at nearly maximum speed. There should be 1-2 minutes rest between each interval.


Preparation for Ironman length event -pre-competition

anaerobic conditioning - Only one small anaerobic training set every 2 weeks will be needed to sustain anaerobic capacity. If the anaerobic capacity is high then anaerobic training sets will be reduced.


Now the previous was for anaerobic conditioning and most will consider this of little importance. But the anaerobic system is a necessity for a good endurance performance. Besides providing a little energy, it is the source for aerobic fuel which provides much faster energy than fats. Why all that carbo loading and glucose intake if not to feed the anaerobic system.

For aerobic conditioning which is where nearly all of the training will be, most of the work will be at low levels with a few limited sets at threshold or above thrown in. The sprints used in the anaerobic conditioning will develop aerobic capacity too but must be limited because they tend to be very stressful and may break down too much if used too much.

For most triathletes this type of detail is not available or necessary. Olbrecht has a testing system that can get at the specifics of the aerobic and anaerobic systems. He will only use it on elite athletes. See the following video which illustrates very briefly the process

http://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

The video is a little theatrical because it was done as a project by someone for a video editing course at a local community college.

For less than elite athletes, more traditional testing is used but the prescriptions for training will again follow the hi-lo or polarized model. For many recreational triathletes there is always the time issue as each wants to maximize the value of their training for the few hours they can devote to each discipline. Somehow training at low levels seems so counter intuitive and a waste of time. The suggestion is to experiment.

Some caveats. The website was written 15 years ago but from what I understand Olbrecht's prescriptions for optimal training are essentially the same. Jan says he is constantly learning as he gets feedback on how the athletes respond to different types of training. The examples in the website are for high level triathletes and the cycling example is dated. Nearly all cycling testing today would be in a lab. Olbrecht's testing for running takes place on a track. Unfortunately, Olbrecht who has a Ph.D from the Sports School in Cologne is not in academia and has almost no time for publishing so there is little in the literature on his methods. But there is published work that describes many of the ideas behind his approach. They are basically ignored however, But on the other hand there is probably no one in the world who has advised more top athletes than Olbrecht.

There are a lot of successful athletes and not all train the same which makes the process of providing optimal training sometimes look like a crap shoot.

-----------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Stephen Seiler] [ In reply to ]
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This debate has made me look back on the training I did in my youth, when I was fast, skinny and fit.
One in my training group was what I consider a good athlete, 4th in the Norwegian jr championship.
The interesting thing is, he never pushed the pace on our easy runs. He was the first to make sure we kept the intensity down.
But of course, when it was intervals, we did a lot of elghufs/moosewalk in out local alpine hill, he made sure the intensity was up.

Our coach put a lot of responsibility on us as young athletes and even if we worked out every day, he maybe was there in person 2-3 times a week. It was a lot of knowledge transfer, he wanted us to know what to do and how to do it.

As a typical age group triathlete with family, work and not to much time on hand I think it is easily to fall into the thinking pattern that everything has to be difficult. That we need a lot of technology (power meter, gps, electronic diary, monitoring, TSS) to get fit. The polarized model is too good to be true. Train hard two times a week and then fill up with as much easy training you can for the rest. It is hard to buy this "product" for type A triathletes.

So now I am back to working on keeping the intensity down when it should be down and up when it should be up.

Thanks for participating in the debate.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
So now I am back to working on keeping the intensity down when it should be down and up when it should be up.

We have a piece of training advice which we have provided to coaches and athletes for consideration:

Most athletes slow is too fast and their fast is too slow.


But all should experiment.

---------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Stephen Seiler] [ In reply to ]
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Stephen Seiler wrote:

Also, our interval training study on recreational cyclists suggested that accumulating 32 minutes of work at 90% HR max (9 mM blood lactate) induced positive changes in both fractional utilization and VO2 max..

Dr. Seiler,

Were the athletes averaging a heart rate of 90% HR max or peaking at that level? This morning i did a set of 4 X 8 minute iso-power intervals and observed a difference of 12bpm for the peak at the end of the first interval to the peak of the last interval. My work level was ~ 109% of my current maximum hour power.

Thanks for stopping by and playing with us,


Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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We averaged the heart rate over the last 25% by time of each work bout to quantify heart rate for the session. So, the average incorporates the heart rate drift you describe.
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Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Stephen Seiler] [ In reply to ]
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Stephen Seiler wrote:
We averaged the heart rate over the last 25% by time of each work bout to quantify heart rate for the session. So, the average incorporates the heart rate drift you describe.

Just what I was looking for.

Thanks,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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