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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Jim and other experts, thank you all very much for this great thread!

I'm a typical age group triathlete, just did my first Ironman. I've always used standard road helmets up to this point (Bell Alchera currently), and I already have a tri bike and old (non-Firecrest) Zipp 404/808 wheels. I understand that position and clothing aside, the only meaningful place left to improve from an aero perspective is helmet.

I was super interested in picking up a Giro Air Attack, but right as I was about to buy one, a friend told me it would save far less time than a "real" aero helmet (something with tail). Since I seem to have found the experts, I have a few questions:

- is the Air Attack the new shiny? Do you agree it's not as good as a traditional aero helmet? Are there numbers on this? And is it significantly better with or without the shield? (I wear prescription cycling glasses, so I'll have glasses either way.)

- for us regular middle of the pack triathletes, what would you recommend for an aero helmet? The Rudy Project Wingspan is a popular helmet but how does it compare to others from an aero perspective and comfort etc? Since I'm slow, I'll be spending more time in it but also averaging a lower mph.

- do you have to keep your head up / aero tail down near your back for the aero helmets to be effective? Like, if my head angle is 30 or 40 degrees down, and the tail thus lifted up, have I now destroyed the aero of the helmet and would be better off with my regular vented bike bike helmet and/or the Air Attack (since it has no tail)?

Thank you in advance!
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I don't have a solid answer for you on that one. The Bambino's effectiveness is so position-dependent that it makes generalizations difficult. If I remember correctly, the results are mixed shield vs no shield.

What do you think of Javellin Visor/No visor?

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Has anyone ever tested something like a Skins or 2XU long sleeved compression top vs a tight fitting tri suit?. I have one of these and wondering whether it would save me much time in a HIM if I wear it under the wetsuit and use it for the bike leg.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [scofflaw] [ In reply to ]
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Not on your list, but skin suits were tested to be one of the most aerodynamic improvements- even compared to just a regular cycling jersey
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [bingobong] [ In reply to ]
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I think Castelli is making a new tri top that would cover the arms and be aero.

If you dont need tri specific then research the Catelli / San Remo its an excellent solution. Look for the 2013's it to go on sale soon. I got 2 last year at 50% off.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [dannyh] [ In reply to ]
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dannyh wrote:
I think Castelli is making a new tri top that would cover the arms and be aero.

If you dont need tri specific then research the Catelli / San Remo its an excellent solution. Look for the 2013's it to go on sale soon. I got 2 last year at 50% off.

How would the San Remo work for a Tri. I was reading and it seems like a 2 piece stiched together so could be a best of both words.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry i cant help you on how to use the normal San Remo for a tri but they are making a version thats tri specific (for cool weather) Info here.

I also saw that Castelli tri (top only) info here.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [dannyh] [ In reply to ]
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dannyh wrote:
Sorry i cant help you on how to use the normal San Remo for a tri but they are making a version thats tri specific (for cool weather) Info here.

I also saw that Castelli tri (top only) info here.

Saw those too. Jim@Ero has convinced me to go this route so just looking for what may work best. Right now, its Octane or bust but looking to see what's coming as well. Testing a Desoto here shortly for non wetsuit OWS.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [mrtopher1980] [ In reply to ]
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Verdict in. Tried it out today in the pool. The Pearl Izumi Octane works fine on the swim (without a wetsuit over it). comfortable. The sleeves are very flat and skin tight. No problems. Not sure, but it might make me 1/2 to 1 second faster per hundred, as compared to lycra jammers. but maybe any tri suit that stretches over your upper body would do that. ??

Downsides:
1. probably a little warmer, given that it has sleeves, and
2. Takes a while to get off your shoulders if you intend to pull it down to pee. Doesn't come off like a sleeveless. Even a wetsuit is easier to pull off your arms than this thing. So- unless you pee on the bike and the run, any time savings will be lost in your undressing time.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [morey000] [ In reply to ]
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morey000 wrote:

Verdict in. Tried it out today in the pool. The Pearl Izumi Octane works fine on the swim (without a wetsuit over it). comfortable. The sleeves are very flat and skin tight. No problems. Not sure, but it might make me 1/2 to 1 second faster per hundred, as compared to lycra jammers. but maybe any tri suit that stretches over your upper body would do that. ??

Downsides:
1. probably a little warmer, given that it has sleeves, and
2. Takes a while to get off your shoulders if you intend to pull it down to pee. Doesn't come off like a sleeveless. Even a wetsuit is easier to pull off your arms than this thing. So- unless you pee on the bike and the run, any time savings will be lost in your undressing time.

I thought earlier in this thread it was mentioned that you can't have your shoulders covered in WTC swims. That would make using the Octane without a wetsuit illegal. The rep at the Skinfit booth mentioned the same things about the streamliner.

http://skinfitusa.com/...ri-suit-streamliner/
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [morey000] [ In reply to ]
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It does state it in the Athlet's Guid for Vegas "No fabric below the shoulder."

http://www.ironman.com/~/media/cd354c2426004f6b8033e69a34ff20df/70%203%20vegas%20ag%208%2029.pdf
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [vikingmd] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm. Something I'll keep in mind if I ever do a WTC event
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
  1. Position
  2. Clothing
  3. Helmet or Wheels
  4. Helmet or Wheels
  5. Clean front end (i.e.cables)
  6. Proper hydration setup
  7. Frame
Castelli Body Paint II seems to be very consistently fast. Champion Systems is coming out with a VERY good skin suit. For tri, you're giving up minutes if you're not using a Pearl Izumi Tri Octane. Seriously, that suit is amazing.

I thought the ERO test results were meant to remain confidential... ?

____________________________________

Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
  1. Position
  2. Clothing
  3. Helmet or Wheels
  4. Helmet or Wheels
  5. Clean front end (i.e.cables)
  6. Proper hydration setup
  7. Frame

that's funny. Other than the hydration setup, it's pretty much inversely proportional to cost. i.e. cheap things are much more beneficial than expensive things.

FWIW- I raced in my Pearl Izumi Octane today. Nice suit. Felt fast (whatever that means) during some headwind sections. Not as hot as I was expecting given that it was blaring sun and in the 80's on the run, so the In-r-cool fabric kinda' works. Not as cool as a white, tech running shirt tho'. Anyway- nice tri suit. And, I did well (for me).
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Japplebaum] [ In reply to ]
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I have the Attack (without shield) and Selector helmets and do feel the 'regular' TT helmet is more aero. Of course I have no proof, but it feels more aero. I used the Selector in several tri's this year (including a half iron) and I just don't feel wind on my head as much. I wish I had gotten the Attack with the shield, but I wanted a helmet to use on my road bike for my 'normal' rides and didn't want to look geeky.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
  1. Position
  2. Clothing
  3. Helmet or Wheels
  4. Helmet or Wheels
  5. Clean front end (i.e.cables)
  6. Proper hydration setup
  7. Frame
Castelli Body Paint II seems to be very consistently fast. Champion Systems is coming out with a VERY good skin suit. For tri, you're giving up minutes if you're not using a Pearl Izumi Tri Octane. Seriously, that suit is amazing.

Thanks for this. I used a Tri Octane suit in my last race based on the advice above and was very happy. No problems on run with it as well.
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
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I pulled this out of one of the attached links.


The San Remo 3 is showing really fast and a big improvement over the version 2 which was said to be 10 - 15 watts @ 25mph. If there is only a 4 watt difference between that and the Body Paint wouldn't the comfort and improved cooling be worth it?
Last edited by: dannyh: Sep 16, 13 13:36
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Japplebaum] [ In reply to ]
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Giro Air Attack
vs.
Rudy Project Wingspan
vs.
Giro Selector w/ Visor

Considerations: aero, comfort, heat, race, regular riding.
Thoughts?

/Howie Nordström
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [lllusion] [ In reply to ]
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Too many considerations.

lllusion wrote:
Giro Air Attack
vs.
Rudy Project Wingspan
vs.
Giro Selector w/ Visor

Considerations: aero, comfort, heat, race, regular riding.
Thoughts?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Giro Attack looks like more of a training helmet than HIM or IM helmet. Yes?

The Wingspan and Selector OTOH are racing helmets. Are they similarly aero--especially if one's head isn't ideally centered? The Selector is 'simple' (no front vents) but is it hot?

/Howie Nordström
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [shamerli] [ In reply to ]
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shamerli wrote:
sdkenny wrote:
Fusion have been producing something like this for a little while see http://www.fusionsportsuk.co.uk/...ops/fusion-speed-top I have had one for the last year and found it to be very good. I wear it during the swim and then shed it in T2. Used it both at races where it has been on the cool side and it did help to keep me a bit warmer and also for Alpe d'Huez long course where it was very hot but regularly pouring water over it seemed to keep me cool and stopped me from burning. There is no way I would like to get it on in T1, I can't see how you would do this without towelling yourself dry completely. No idea how the Fusion one works out in terms of aerodynamics.

Steven


Side-note : Does anyone have any experience with the ice-packs from Fusion ? I don't function very well in hot weather, so this could be considered a great aid in my case. I only need to have enough of these available at the personal service-stations to "replace" them during a race to keep in full functional mode ;).

Not sure if you know this but Fusion has launched in the US. http://www.fusionsportsusa.com/ and since we are trying to launch it and get it in the hands of a few people we are doing a discount code of FusionUSST20 which will get you 20% off anything you order for shipping in the US. If you have any questions about the product don't hesitate to contact me chance@fusionsportus.com

Chance Regina
President
AVC Enterprises
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I know this is old, but I'd sure like to know, which would you guess is faster for a typical age grouper with a slowtwitch approved position, PI octane, or Body Paint 2.0? Do you recall any issues with loose sleeves on the octane?
Thanks!
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [corneliused] [ In reply to ]
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corneliused wrote:
I know this is old, but I'd sure like to know, which would you guess is faster for a typical age grouper with a slowtwitch approved position, PI octane, or Body Paint 2.0? Do you recall any issues with loose sleeves on the octane?
Thanks!

It's a little apples to oranges as the Octane is a tri suit while the Body Paint is a cycling-only skin suit. The Body Paint will certainly be faster by a decent amount, but good luck swimming or running in it! :-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [corneliused] [ In reply to ]
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I used the PI Octane in a recent IM, under a sleeveless wetsuit, and there were no issues with loose sleeves. They're very tight and reach almost to the elbows.


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Hello,

I have found this a very interesting thread. I am a new triathlete riding a CAAD10 road bike in sprint distance races. I have a pretty decent shot at making the worlds team in the sprint distance race in august. This has become my primary goal. Eventually I would be interested in racing 70.3's but iron distance does not appeal to me at all. Back to my main question. The guys at my bike shop don't think being aero (and having an aero helmet) will have much of an impact on such short race. I really have no way of knowing because I am so new to this.

I am pretty sure I am not racing in an aero set up at all. So what is my best course of action?? I intend on working on the engine regardless.

1. New bike fit on a road bike and invest in race wheels?

2. New tribike?

3.???

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!!!
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