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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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See *** for answers

1. I have trouble raising my HR above 170 on the bike, while I can raise my HR to 190+ running. Is that normal?*****yes

2. As you can see, I don't have huge blocks of time for long bike rides. At this point, are these 45m-90m workouts good uses of time or do gains happen at the end of a 40/50-miler? ****they are a use of time, how good depends what you do.
How should I prioritize hill work vs. flat cranking? ****It depends. You should prioritize work not riding.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Based on his lack of bike training experience and the goal, this guy really needs a coach....

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I love ST. Where advice about training turns into a thread with marriage advice.

Was going to add the same. Not only is everyone a coach, but a marriage counselor! Is there any way you could start including relationship tips to my plans?

"One Line Robert"
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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When did Brian get on the short list of relationship coaches?
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
I won the genetic lottery and was fast enough within 10 months of my first triathlon to show up at IMAZ and go sub 10 and qualify. Had the OP shown up at his half and destroyed it OB not a lot of training then I would say his limited time may not be a prohibitive factor. But he didn't, so his journey will be about the work.

Is going sub 10, "destroying it" at AZ?

I showed up at AZ after 11 months of solid work anticipating to go 9:30 and grab a slot. I went 9:36 and missed it by two spots (think I would have needed sub 9:18 if I remember right). First marathon, first ironman, blah, whatever. And I'd say that the OP has more fitness than I did at the start of that 11 months. I think the difference between what hes trying to do and what I did was that I sacrificed a lot to get there - time and relationships. I hired a coach. Bought a powermeter. Read everything possible. Experimented with nutrition until I got it right. I left no stone un turned. But 4 others were faster than me on that day. Which is why making a KQ a one time only goal is futile. You can't control who shows up.

Bryan, I'm not at all diminishing your KQ at AZ but would you not agree that it had just as much to do with who was there on the day as it did with whatever fitness you brought with you? Never mind that you did it how many years ago and the slots went how deep in your AG?

"One Line Robert"
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
When did Brian get on the short list of relationship coaches?

My point exactly.

But maybe he should be? I'll test the waters and report back.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks and good points. From digesting most of the bike training lit on the internets, my current strategy is to be in "sweet spot" (upper Z3) for the majority of my riding, with some higher-end work to stretch out my capacity. In theory, I'm aiming for:
35% cruising (Z2)
55% upper Z3 - mindful of the "plateau" but my fitness is not there yet where this should be a concern
10% higher - 1 2x15/2x20 tempo, 1 5-6x6' hard workout per week, 1 20x1' on, 1' off every few weeks for VO2

Does that seem like a reasonable plan for this base period? For "build" I'm just going to add volume to Z2 and Z3, without adding more fast stuff.
Last edited by: WX: Jul 8, 13 11:05
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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I finished in 9:43, was 4th in the AG, the last slot went 9:59, I think it was the first year all M35-39 qualifiers finished sub 10. I was also lije the 12th amatuer OA. In 2009 I was 3rd with a 9:20 at IMAZ and I don't think any M40-44 qualifiers went sub 9:30. The point isn't so much the OP's time it's his placing. Placing is ALL that matters in Kona Qualifying. That's it. So being 10th at a 70.3 and then wanting to be 1-2 at a full is a big ask.

So focusing on time is irrelevant, everyone fighting for Kona slots is fast and getting faster. Had the OP been in the 70.3 podium, say top 3, then that would say this guy has the goods to step up and deliver given enough preparation. 10th says to me this is going to take more time then he has allowed for.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Last edited by: Bryancd: Jul 8, 13 11:16
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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Bryancd wrote:
I finished in 9:43, was 4th in the AG, the last slot went 9:59, I think it was the first year all M35-39 qualifiers finished sub 10. I was also lije the 12th amatuer OA. In 2009 I was 3rd with a 9:20 at IMAZ and I don't think any M40-44 qualifiers went sub 9:30. The point isn't so much the OP's time it's his placing. Placing is ALL that matters in Kona Qualifying. That's it. So being 10th at a 70.3 and then wanting to be 1-2 at a full is a big ask.

And my point is that previous placing doesn't much matter. He was 9th behind who? What matters is who's there (and there was some talent that showed up in his AG that day - Pat Wheeler - now pro, Matt Curbeau - qualified for his pro card, Eric Retinger, Mike Lavery). And you can't control that part.

His goal (as opposed to a KQ) should simply be to obtain as much fitness as possible, prepare in every way imaginable and aim to execute flawlessly on the day and hope for the best.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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WX should take your advice on 70.3 and do the half in Hawaii 70.3. Don't they give out Kona slats there?
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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If I recall correctly, he first qualified when IMAZ was a spring race. The April IMAZ races were not as fast as the November races.

2005-08 were spring races, 2 IMAZ races in '08 (April & November), November only since 2009.
Last edited by: kbd: Jul 8, 13 11:24
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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In April 2007, yes.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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wsrobert wrote:
Bryancd wrote:
I finished in 9:43, was 4th in the AG, the last slot went 9:59, I think it was the first year all M35-39 qualifiers finished sub 10. I was also lije the 12th amatuer OA. In 2009 I was 3rd with a 9:20 at IMAZ and I don't think any M40-44 qualifiers went sub 9:30. The point isn't so much the OP's time it's his placing. Placing is ALL that matters in Kona Qualifying. That's it. So being 10th at a 70.3 and then wanting to be 1-2 at a full is a big ask.


And my point is that previous placing doesn't much matter. He was 9th behind who? What matters is who's there (and there was some talent that showed up in his AG that day - Pat Wheeler - now pro, Matt Curbeau - qualified for his pro card, Eric Retinger, Mike Lavery). And you can't control that part.

His goal (as opposed to a KQ) should simply be to obtain as much fitness as possible, prepare in every way imaginable and aim to execute flawlessly on the day and hope for the best.


Yeah, for sure. Lets face, we are all just spit balling here, I am just presenting the case that I don't think there is enough bike swim innate talent and enough time to do this in the time frame and training time the OP has allowed for. It's just my opinion, and we know what that's good for. :)

So considering previous results, time to train, time of year he will be training, date of race, and based on the most recent posts not a lot of bike training experience...you can see my point.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Last edited by: Bryancd: Jul 8, 13 11:33
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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Just saw this thread and read through the whole thing. Best of luck to you! Keep us all posted on your training.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [terencejk05] [ In reply to ]
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Week 2 update!

Summary: 140 miles biking, 36 miles running for a total time of 12:20 (all-time high for me).

Without boring everyone with minutia, I just wanted to highlight one thing... I went to a spinning studio with power for the first time! Didn't do an FTP test yet (that'll be this week, I hope), but did do the following workout:

WU w/ spin ups
Set 1: 15 minutes @ "80% intensity - going by feel", with 5 30 second sprints interspersed. 215W during steady
Set 2: 2x (3'@ 235W, 1'@ 330W, 1.5' rest, 2'@ 235W, 1'@330W, 1.5' rest, 1'@235W, 1'@330W, 1.5' rest)

These results are not really interpretable, but this doesn't stop me from trying! I am going to optimistically suggest that this effort hints that my FTP is around the 230-240W range? At 63kg, that's a bit under 4w/kg, which seems pretty reasonable. Goal would be to get FTP up to 280 and weight down to 60kg, which would be more helpful on a hillier course, but oh well, I can't have everything.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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WX wrote:
Week 2 update!

Summary: 140 miles biking, 36 miles running for a total time of 12:20 (all-time high for me).

Without boring everyone with minutia, I just wanted to highlight one thing... I went to a spinning studio with power for the first time! Didn't do an FTP test yet (that'll be this week, I hope), but did do the following workout:

WU w/ spin ups
Set 1: 15 minutes @ "80% intensity - going by feel", with 5 30 second sprints interspersed. 215W during steady
Set 2: 2x (3'@ 235W, 1'@ 330W, 1.5' rest, 2'@ 235W, 1'@330W, 1.5' rest, 1'@235W, 1'@330W, 1.5' rest)

These results are not really interpretable, but this doesn't stop me from trying! I am going to optimistically suggest that this effort hints that my FTP is around the 230-240W range? At 63kg, that's a bit under 4w/kg, which seems pretty reasonable. Goal would be to get FTP up to 280 and weight down to 60kg, which would be more helpful on a hillier course, but oh well, I can't have everything.

Was this on a spin bike (Keiser or similar)? Then those numbers are useless. All you know is that when it said '300' you did more work than when it said '200'. The numbers are not comparable between bikes (even in the same studio), and on the same bike not between sessions (or even in the same session; I had one of them drift noticeably as the studio and the bike heated up).

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Jan de Visser] [ In reply to ]
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It was on a Cyclops 300 Pro trainer (http://www.cycleops.com/...71&category_id=7)

Not perfect, but I think in the ballpark.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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WX wrote:
It was on a Cyclops 300 Pro trainer (http://www.cycleops.com/...71&category_id=7)

Not perfect, but I think in the ballpark.

Interesting. Never seen those. Has a PowerTap in it, so should work reasonably well I guess. Positioning is also a lot better than on your average spin bike. I reckon this is not at your average Goodlife Fitness style gym, but something a more endurance sport focussed, no?

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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Interested to hear how your training has gone over the last 6 weeks?

In a similar situation giving it a go in Texas. I did an ironman 7 years ago and making a 'comeback'. 2:38 open marathoner. going about it a little different though training with power & cycling coach
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [dooley34] [ In reply to ]
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dooley34 wrote:
Interested to hear how your training has gone over the last 6 weeks?

In a similar situation giving it a go in Texas. I did an ironman 7 years ago and making a 'comeback'. 2:38 open marathoner. going about it a little different though training with power & cycling coach

Glad to hear it! Although I hope we're not in the same age group... :)

Was going to wait until after this weekend to update as I have my first race coming up - Lobsterman Oly. Not worried too much about the overall time as I haven't swam all summer, but would love to see how my other splits come out. In terms of training, I think I'm ~30 watts better than two months ago on the bike and <2:40 marathon pace for the run. Will keep you posted on my results.

Are you doing different workouts now on the bike than before?
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't been riding much over the summer due to a running focus and time constraints. I've just begun putting in some short rides before going through some base testing with the cycling coach. i'll be 30-34 for texas.
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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WX

I was thinking of going to Miamiman for the winter .5 or maybe do the bone island in january. Have you ever done these before?

BTW I live in boston (littleton metrowest) and it is really a cycle friendly place so I bike to work a few times a week. It takes the same time on a bike as it would in a car in traffic and I save $953 every 21 days (tolls parking and gas.) At lunch I run or swim (BSC has pools) or hit walden pond in the morning before work (wife never knows.) just thought I would share a few tricks to keeping wife happy ( 3 kids 2 dogs guina pig and a fish. - happy wife happy life)

Good luck!!

Ron
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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wsrobert wrote:
Bryancd wrote:

And my point is that previous placing doesn't much matter. He was 9th behind who? What matters is who's there (and there was some talent that showed up in his AG that day - Pat Wheeler - now pro, Matt Curbeau - qualified for his pro card, Eric Retinger, Mike Lavery). And you can't control that part.

His goal (as opposed to a KQ) should simply be to obtain as much fitness as possible, prepare in every way imaginable and aim to execute flawlessly on the day and hope for the best.


Yeah, for sure. Lets face, we are all just spit balling here, I am just presenting the case that I don't think there is enough bike swim innate talent and enough time to do this in the time frame and training time the OP has allowed for. It's just my opinion, and we know what that's good for. :)

So considering previous results, time to train, time of year he will be training, date of race, and based on the most recent posts not a lot of bike training experience...you can see my point.

Alright, so I had my first real race of the season, and my first Olympic distance tri at Lobsterman this weekend. Results first, then explanation later. Here's the link if people can give me better insights on how I compare to other racers: http://www.lobstermantri.com/results/#/results

Overall time: 2:20:30, good for 20th overall and 10th in division. So now you're thinking, he is so far away from being competitive he should give up right? Well, there are a few encouraging signs that came out of this:

1. Swim time of 35 minutes. I lost sight of the second buoy and went way off course. I'm no shark by any means and just started swimming this past week after 2 years off, but I feel like my cruise times of 1:45/100scy with only open turns should translate better than this in open-water and wetsuit. 35 is just terrible. I need to sight better.

2. I had the 9th overall bike split at 1:05 with high crr tires (my conti's haven't arrived yet from PBK) and box rims on a rolling course of 1,700+ elevation gain. Other finishers around my pace seem to be ~1:02 on other courses.

3. My calf cramped up and I couldn't really stride out on the run, resulting in a 38:09 10K. It was hilly and I can (and should) do a lot better. I have also not done any VO2Max workouts, focusing on strength (e.g., 6x1mile @ 5:45 pace) that will help me in longer races.

Next race is Miami 70.3 in a month, over which I will put a big focus in on the swim, keep pushing ftp on the bike, and maintaining the run. As always, any and all feedback welcome. I have also decided to splurge for a powermeter over the winter sufferfest season. Excited!
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [WX] [ In reply to ]
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I'm definitely not as knowledgable on this as many of the posters above were, nor have I even come close to qualifying!

That said, reading what you did at the Olympic, does seem promising, swim aside.

You're getting close to being able to go sub 2:00 if you can get down to a 1/2 decent swim, which you said you would start working on this month with coaching (have you started?)...

1:05 on the bike with a 38 minute run following it is pretty good, it's showing you are not fully blowing up after pushing your bike...Do you feel you can hold the percentage of that bike speed you need to qualify and run as well of the bike? Getting the FTP up is great...For Olympic distance races, but can you translate it to a 5 hour bike ride followed by a 3:15 marathon?

Also, how goes the bike training? What is FTP up to?

I'm excited to see if you pull this off and follow your training and build up.

Good Luck WX, Good Luck!

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Chrissie wins because she trains really f'ing hard and races really f'ing hard and was blessed with a huge f'ing motor" Jordan Rapp
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Re: One shot at Kona - here goes! [Crmurphy] [ In reply to ]
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Going form 1:05 to 1:00 flat that needed to go sub 2 unless your a top swimmer or runner is a HUGE jump in speed. 1:05 is a somewhat pedestrian 22.8mph. 1:00 is of course 24.8 mph. Unless you have big aero imrpovements in position or equipment to be made, you probably have to almost double your training volume or dramatically imrpove your quality to get there. I know, that's what it took for me but I'm still only at 1:01.

But you said box rimes and traiing tires, so that could be a good 1mph you left on the table.

I'd say your getting close, but you'll need more. At this point a 70.3 will be a better test to prove your metal toughness and nutrition plans. Within the ability ot really suffer in the run and have a solid nutirition plan, you'll be in trouble. I was a little off at my last HIM and it cost me probably 4-5 minutes and a LOT of suffering. In a IM that's probably magnified to 20-30 minutes and kissing any shot at a KQ goodbye.


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Last edited by: motoguy128: Sep 16, 13 6:40
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