Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: the hierarchy of aero [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Its not just tight fit; that's only part of the equation. It's covering the skin, which happens to be a very poor surface aerodynamically. Beyond that, you texture the fabric so it acts as a boundary layer trip. Most tri suits are sleeveless and expose the shoulders and part of the back. That slows an athlete down. Cover the shoulders and upper arms, and you'll go faster.

Crowie, Dibens, Cave, Joyce, Mckenzie, Jackson, and more have been here in the past few months. We ARE testing against what they're wearing, and numbers don't lie; they are who we get the numbers from. Call around, many manufacturers are working on sleeved kits right now based on our testing and results (okay, they may not admit it). I'm just not convinced its worth the extra time in transition for a non-wetsuit legal race, though I'm hoping to test something this week that might change everything.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Getting fatter often/sometimes reduces drag.

Rounder shapes! I suspect that a big beer gut would be quite good for aero if you could figure out how to get low and still pedal.

Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim@EROsports wrote:
many manufacturers are working on sleeved kits right now based on our testing and results (okay, they may not admit it). I'm just not convinced its worth the extra time in transition for a non-wetsuit legal race, though I'm hoping to test something this week that might change everything.
I've occasionally wondered whether zip on sleeves could be designed to be fast.
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RChung wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
many manufacturers are working on sleeved kits right now based on our testing and results (okay, they may not admit it). I'm just not convinced its worth the extra time in transition for a non-wetsuit legal race, though I'm hoping to test something this week that might change everything.

I've occasionally wondered whether zip on sleeves could be designed to be fast.

I wonder about these:

http://www.desotosport.com/product/CW

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm actually on the market for a new suit and was looking at the Octane (based on this thread) and also the Skinfit model which appears to go down the arms and has longer legs...can we expect all companies to starting heading down this path? Outside of non-wetsuit swims, there is really no reason not to wear something like that if it doesn't have too large of an effect on the run? Does this also explain the testing on someone's blog that compression socks tested the fastest of all race kits?
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
We ARE testing against what they're wearing, and numbers don't lie///

I don't doubt that your numbers don't lie, unfortunately we do not race in a tunnel. Personally if i were racing i would put on some sleeves, but that takes just a couple seconds, so not a big factor in missing the train on the bike. My point is that what material is it that makes you so fast but also won't cook you on the bike? Also keep in mind that for most of the race you are in a crosswind, so the numbers you get and what are really available are going to be different.


I applaud what you are doing and I'm sure at some point it will be a benefit to the athletes. Like we have both said, tactically it won't make sense if it takes too long to make the change. Riding 10m behind a rider has to be worth waaay more than the supposed 4 minutes for a new suit. But some quick arms with a breathable material is certainly a viable option. I figure i could put on the clumped arms in under 8 seconds and then do the roll down and up on the move at full speed, so not too much to catch up..
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [rruff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
rruff wrote:
Getting fatter often/sometimes reduces drag.

Rounder shapes! I suspect that a big beer gut would be quite good for aero if you could figure out how to get low and still pedal.

That's not a beer gut, it's a "belly fairing" ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
it's too bad this wasn't a secret for a little longer...

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim@EROsports wrote:
I wonder about these:

http://www.desotosport.com/product/CW

Interesting.

My own tests with otherwise tight jerseys with the zipper either up at the neck or just part-way down make me think that if air can find a way in it will. That makes me wonder whether that's a robust design (robust in the sense of "it may be good if it's tight and smooth but if you get a gap somewhere will it be disastrous?").
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
unfortunately we do not race in a tunnel.

Which is why we don't test in a tunnel! :-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim@EROsports wrote:
monty wrote:
unfortunately we do not race in a tunnel.


Which is why we don't test in a tunnel! :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0PIdWdw15U
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
so tired of this "in the real world" meme

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Next up: "aero only matters if you're already fast."
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RChung wrote:
Next up: "aero only matters if you're already fast."

Followed by "all aero bets are off in a sprint due to the side to side motion of the bikes" :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RChung wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
I wonder about these:

http://www.desotosport.com/product/CW

Interesting.

My own tests with otherwise tight jerseys with the zipper either up at the neck or just part-way down make me think that if air can find a way in it will. That makes me wonder whether that's a robust design (robust in the sense of "it may be good if it's tight and smooth but if you get a gap somewhere will it be disastrous?").

Anyone think a De Soto long sleeve skin cooler would be faster than a normal Tri top.

Am thinking about wearing the long sleeve tomorrow in Canada after reading this. .

http://www.desotosport.com/product/LST1
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim@EROsports wrote:
.... For tri, you're giving up minutes if you're not using a Pearl Izumi Tri Octane. Seriously, that suit is amazing.

Whooo Hooo! I bought one on sale at TriSports! Haven't raced in it yet. I really had no idea that it was fast. Bought it because it was on sale and looked cool. A little weird that it has sleeves, but I guess that's the whole point.

gonna' take it out for its first race in a few weeks.
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom A. wrote:
RChung wrote:
Next up: "aero only matters if you're already fast."


Followed by "all aero bets are off in a sprint due to the side to side motion of the bikes" :-/

You just need to pump up your tyres more.
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Its not just tight fit; that's only part of the equation. It's covering the skin, which happens to be a very poor surface aerodynamically. Beyond that, you texture the fabric so it acts as a boundary layer trip. Most tri suits are sleeveless and expose the shoulders and part of the back. That slows an athlete down. Cover the shoulders and upper arms, and you'll go faster.

Crowie, Dibens, Cave, Joyce, Mckenzie, Jackson, and more have been here in the past few months. We ARE testing against what they're wearing, and numbers don't lie; they are who we get the numbers from. Call around, many manufacturers are working on sleeved kits right now based on our testing and results (okay, they may not admit it). I'm just not convinced its worth the extra time in transition for a non-wetsuit legal race, though I'm hoping to test something this week that might change everything.

I was hoping to see this as those of us that race in team issued kits are very limited in options...well, not limited, we have one...lol


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I understand the potential aero benefit of longer sleeves on the bike but what is the benefit for the swim (I'm assuming this is the reason for the shoulder rule)? Is it compression of the body so it is smaller in the water or is their something else?
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
monty wrote:
unfortunately we do not race in a tunnel.

Fortunately, the tunnel and real world agree as far as drag goes. So as long as the skinsuit doesn't tear your balls up....





Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The shoulder rule may be purely an aesthetic one and/or so that your race number is visible

Pro cycling has a rule that you MUST have sleeves, just aesthetic and possibly to increase sponsor area

Tony5 wrote:
I understand the potential aero benefit of longer sleeves on the bike but what is the benefit for the swim (I'm assuming this is the reason for the shoulder rule)? Is it compression of the body so it is smaller in the water or is their something else?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
unfortunately we do not race in a tunnel.

You might not, but some do:

http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=pWjJUy6tCAI

http://road.cc/...derground-big-prizes
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [Tony5] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tony5 wrote:
I understand the potential aero benefit of longer sleeves on the bike but what is the benefit for the swim (I'm assuming this is the reason for the shoulder rule)? Is it compression of the body so it is smaller in the water or is their something else?

Rules for triathlon clothing are, I believe, originally inherited from FINA rules. If not wetsuit legal, no clothing beyond shoulders or knees - basically, the idea is to prevent a full-blown speedsuit war with swimskins that cover the entire body.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jackmott wrote:

monty wrote:
unfortunately we do not race in a tunnel.


Fortunately, the tunnel and real world agree as far as drag goes. ....

You're right, Jack -- wind tunnels isolate aerodynamic forces very well. I'm sure no one's implying otherwise.

The best practice is to use all three legs of the stool: CFD, wind tunnel, and aero field testing. I think most of the top manufacturers have already embraced this to one degree or another. Each one has its own strengths and weaknesses.

AndyF
bike geek
Quote Reply
Re: the hierarchy of aero [AndyF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hey listen everyone, i think wind tunnel testing is the tits. And just like pool testing for wetsuits and skins it is the best possible place to eliminate as much noise as you can to get any meaningful results. I think tunnel tests should be done on all this new stuff. My point is that i'm very leery when someone says this or that will take 4 minutes or 10 minutes off your bike times. This has been going on since the first bike went into the tunnel. If you add up all the savings that aero shit is supposed to give you, then guys should be well under 4 hours in hawaii. It has just never added up so i remain skeptical on outrageous claims. My only point to bringing up real world conditions is that i believe they are what put the crimp into these supposed possible gains. So many variables to consider, and too many to control, so that is why you really don't get 8 or whatever minutes with an aero helmet. And i can guarantee you that if i speed up just a bit every time the moto comes by to do some filming, that will trump everything you could throw at some group of aero do dads. Not to say you should not have all this stuff, because it does not negate you from upping your cadence every time a truck or car goes by, and even gets you going a tiny bit faster.

But it is all good, remember when swim skins were giving 15 even 20 seconds a 100?? I'm most of the way through my tests and 3 seconds has been the best thus far, and that is against me unshaved and with training jammers for the control. All these things seem to swing like a pendulum, eventually finding the real bottom where the truth sits..
Quote Reply

Prev Next