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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Most people approach packing their bike from the completely wrong direction. Protecting a bike has way more to do with what's going in inside the box than with the strength of the box itself.

Try this thought experiment. Take an egg, wrap it in several layers of bubble wrap, put that in a standard cardboard shoebox and drop it from shoulder height. Your egg is still intact. Now take that same egg, remove the bubble wrap, put in a shoebox made of heavy-gauge steel and drop that thing from shoulder height. After you dig it out of the crater in the floor you'll find that your indestructible box has a broken egg in it.

What about doing both, using the bubble wrap and the steel box? Wouldn't that be even better? Sure, but the fact is even in the steel box 95% of your protection is in the bubble wrap, the steel is largely just dead weight. Now factor in that with a bike box you're never dealing with a container as strong as heavy-gauge steel or cargo as fragile as an egg.

Spacers in the dropouts, pipe insulation and/or bubble wrap over everything, zip tie it all together so nothing can rattle around (and the TSA only has one monolithic block to look at) and you'll be fine whether you've got a soft bag, a cardboard box or a fancy-pants hardshell case. Skip any of these and you're setting yourself up for a bad time regardless of what's on the outside.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [KoopaTroopa] [ In reply to ]
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When I pack art for shipping I deliberately make the outside of the box look weak and I carefully plan the interior. I also plan on how the package can be lifted and make it so dead obvious for the shippers that they can't screw it up. My stuff always arrives fine.

Ian
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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Macca transporting with a cardboard box is very interesting. For bike transport, United Airlines specifically approves the cardboard box or a hard case. I also found out that the airlines have these approved cardboard boxes available. The mention of the cardboard box made me wonder. Maybe there is more to it than we know.
Last edited by: Trigirl357: Aug 22, 13 8:09
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [KoopaTroopa] [ In reply to ]
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KoopaTroopa wrote:
Most people approach packing their bike from the completely wrong direction. Protecting a bike has way more to do with what's going in inside the box than with the strength of the box itself.

Try this thought experiment. Take an egg, wrap it in several layers of bubble wrap, put that in a standard cardboard shoebox and drop it from shoulder height. Your egg is still intact. Now take that same egg, remove the bubble wrap, put in a shoebox made of heavy-gauge steel and drop that thing from shoulder height. After you dig it out of the crater in the floor you'll find that your indestructible box has a broken egg in it.

What about doing both, using the bubble wrap and the steel box? Wouldn't that be even better? Sure, but the fact is even in the steel box 95% of your protection is in the bubble wrap, the steel is largely just dead weight. Now factor in that with a bike box you're never dealing with a container as strong as heavy-gauge steel or cargo as fragile as an egg.

Spacers in the dropouts, pipe insulation and/or bubble wrap over everything, zip tie it all together so nothing can rattle around (and the TSA only has one monolithic block to look at) and you'll be fine whether you've got a soft bag, a cardboard box or a fancy-pants hardshell case. Skip any of these and you're setting yourself up for a bad time regardless of what's on the outside.

How about this thought experiment? A sharp pointy object impales your boxes. Its still better to have a hard case. Not all damage occurs due to drops.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Just last week I finished a four month back and forth battle with US airways to get my wheelset replaced. It took a lot of patience, a lot of persistence, but finally I got about $1500 including my bag damage and wheel damage.

You could contact United's manager, or look into their claims services, send pictures, and get patient.

If you want a fast replacement, it will have to come out of your pocket.

Two different companies here so it will definitely vary.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Cyronman] [ In reply to ]
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We've hosted pros over the past few years for our 70.3. The first year, the pro had her bike in a very light soft sided bag. Another one flew in with a bike in a cardboard bike box. It had gotten quite beat up on the last leg of his trip, so he got a new bike box from our LBS. No issue with his Shiv. And another pro had his bike packed in a hockey bag - mind you, he had it packed down with having the cranks off - but that was a way to prevent the airline fee.

We have travelled many times with our bikes (probably about 4 times per year) and so far, only one cracked front fork on my husband's bike. We have soft sided bags and use pipe insulation around all the frame securing with duct tape and then also have cut pieces of foam mattress pads that we use to add more support. and to wrap around the other exposed parts. Knock on wood, we've had fairly good luck given all the travel. Now, don't ask me how much we've spent in airline fees for the bikes....this is the bag we have (and that guy is neither of us!! photo found on google! LOL!):


Last edited by: cinc: Aug 22, 13 8:26
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [goodboyr] [ In reply to ]
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Sure. All else being equal having a hard shell should offer more protection. But my point still stands. How you package the contents of the box is always going to be more important than the rigidity of the box. Even in the absence of concerns about airline fees/weight/ease of transport/TSA shenanigans etc. I would take a well packed compact soft bag over a haphazardly packed behemoth hard case every single time.

People tend to grossly overestimate the additional protection afforded by a hard case. A hard case isn't magic. It's about 1/10th of an inch of cheap plastic. Pretty much any hit severe enough to damage a well packed and padded bike is going to make quick work of that as well.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Well to follow up on the status of my battle with United .... I just got a shocking phone call and I must say that I am a little speechless.

A little over a week ago, I sent a certified letter to three managers and the President of United notifying them of a ten day notice before I pursued legal action. I still haven't heard a peep from United. On Monday, I had the paperwork ready and plans to travel to court. I was going to appear before a judge to file a small claims petition on United Airlines for my bike damages which totalled $1,705.

Thirty minutes ago, USAA legal department called and told me that they found the smallest little worded clause in my policy which allowed them to cover the damages to my bike. It was the difference in somehow defining that United damaged my bags via careless handling and not through movement of bags on the airplane while in flight. The legal representative literally told me - we know that there is no coverage for you guys and we don't think that it is right for the airlines to do this to you. He said that it was time that they stick up for their customers. He added, "So we are going to cover you and we are going after United Airlines." I will have the money in my bank account within 48 hours.

Jaw on floor.

~Karen, one proud USAA member
Last edited by: Trigirl357: Aug 22, 13 12:46
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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WIN! That's awesome. I was curious what happened when I saw this thread pop back up.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Trigirl357 wrote:
Well to follow up on the status of my battle with United .... I just got a shocking phone call and I must say that I am a little speechless.

A little over a week ago, I sent a certified letter to three managers and the President of United notifying them of a ten day notice before I pursued legal action. I still haven't heard a peep from United. On Monday, I had the paperwork ready and plans to travel to court. I was going to appear before a judge to file a small claims petition on United Airlines for my bike damages which totalled $1,705.

Thirty minutes ago, USAA legal department called and told me that they found the smallest little worded clause in my policy which allowed them to cover the damages to my bike. It was the difference in somehow defining that United damaged my bags via careless handling and not through movement of bags on the airplane while in flight. The legal representative literally told me - we know that there is no coverage for you guys and we don't think that it is right for the airlines to do this to you. He said that it was time that they stick up for their customers. He added, "So we are going to cover you and we are going after United Airlines." I will have the money in my bank account within 48 hours.

Jaw on floor.

~Karen, one proud USAA member

I'll show this to my wife. USAA is awesome!

Funny side story, whenever we get generic veterans related marketing material it's ALWAYS address to me... because you know, there's no way that only a female spouse would be a veteran right? It drives her nuts and she usually goes off, justifiably, on a gender discrimination rant.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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This is good to know. Just wondering if you could post the exact wording of the clause. I need to look and see if it's in my policy.

Hopefully USAA going after united will do something. Though it might just raise their bike fees to cover their liability :-)
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [SpicedRum] [ In reply to ]
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SpicedRum wrote:
This is good to know. Just wondering if you could post the exact wording of the clause. I need to look and see if it's in my policy.

Hopefully USAA going after united will do something. Though it might just raise their bike fees to cover their liability :-)

Unfortunately I don't have the specific wording in my policy that the legal team referred to - although I personally believe that the lawyers literally just defined a new clause under the Airline portion to address this ongoing issue. It may be a new addition & worth a phone call in a couple of days.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [KoopaTroopa] [ In reply to ]
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KoopaTroopa wrote:
Sure. All else being equal having a hard shell should offer more protection. But my point still stands. How you package the contents of the box is always going to be more important than the rigidity of the box. Even in the absence of concerns about airline fees/weight/ease of transport/TSA shenanigans etc. I would take a well packed compact soft bag over a haphazardly packed behemoth hard case every single time.

People tend to grossly overestimate the additional protection afforded by a hard case. A hard case isn't magic. It's about 1/10th of an inch of cheap plastic. Pretty much any hit severe enough to damage a well packed and padded bike is going to make quick work of that as well.

I'm probably going to jinx myself with this statement, but I respectfully disagree. The Scicon Aero tech is a hard shell that's virtually indestuctable. The bike is suspended inside with straps . I chose to pad it as well as you've described but the design of this box and the way the bike is installed in it does not require the padding to protect the bike. You could be right for other hardshells, and I'm not going to take a chance with my bike since its so easy to add pipe insulation and bubble wrap, but your statement is an overly general rule that doesn't apply to this case.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [goodboyr] [ In reply to ]
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It's all a matter of risk tolerance I suppose.

For all of the horror stories you can dig up on this forum, the fact is that a well packed bike in a soft case has a pretty low chance of incurring catastrophic damage. A well packed bike in your Scicon has a somewhat lower chance of incurring catastrophic damage. Whether or not this additional piece of mind is worth several hundreds of dollars up front plus up to $300 per trip is entirely up to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Trigirl357 wrote:
Well to follow up on the status of my battle with United .... I just got a shocking phone call and I must say that I am a little speechless.

A little over a week ago, I sent a certified letter to three managers and the President of United notifying them of a ten day notice before I pursued legal action. I still haven't heard a peep from United. On Monday, I had the paperwork ready and plans to travel to court. I was going to appear before a judge to file a small claims petition on United Airlines for my bike damages which totalled $1,705.

Thirty minutes ago, USAA legal department called and told me that they found the smallest little worded clause in my policy which allowed them to cover the damages to my bike. It was the difference in somehow defining that United damaged my bags via careless handling and not through movement of bags on the airplane while in flight. The legal representative literally told me - we know that there is no coverage for you guys and we don't think that it is right for the airlines to do this to you. He said that it was time that they stick up for their customers. He added, "So we are going to cover you and we are going after United Airlines." I will have the money in my bank account within 48 hours.

Jaw on floor.

~Karen, one proud USAA member

I gotta admit....I was surprised by your original post with USAA's first response. Seemed totally out of line with how they handle claims, etc.

USAA rocks. I'll never get insurance anywhere else.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Can I ask what type of USAA policy covered your bike in this case? Was it homeowners insurance?
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [KoopaTroopa] [ In reply to ]
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KoopaTroopa wrote:
It's all a matter of risk tolerance I suppose.

For all of the horror stories you can dig up on this forum, the fact is that a well packed bike in a soft case has a pretty low chance of incurring catastrophic damage. A well packed bike in your Scicon has a somewhat lower chance of incurring catastrophic damage. Whether or not this additional piece of mind is worth several hundreds of dollars up front plus up to $300 per trip is entirely up to you. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think you've characterized it correctly. My risk tolerance is super low because I have a cervelo RCA.(sorry for the backdoor brag)
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Billabong] [ In reply to ]
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Billabong wrote:
Post your story on their Facebook Page

+1
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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I use a Tri All 3 hard case. I have never been allowed to watch its inspection, despite requesting it several times. TSA has never managed to reclasp all 4 clasps on the box. I even put a nice note inside requesting that they make sure all 4 all securely fastened. I've had it arrive with 2 out of 4 unfastened and gapped open.

Anyone else have this problem? Is the Scicon case easier to close and fasten?
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Ironma'am] [ In reply to ]
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Ironma'am wrote:
I use a Tri All 3 hard case. I have never been allowed to watch its inspection, despite requesting it several times. TSA has never managed to reclasp all 4 clasps on the box. I even put a nice note inside requesting that they make sure all 4 all securely fastened. I've had it arrive with 2 out of 4 unfastened and gapped open.

Anyone else have this problem? Is the Scicon case easier to close and fasten?

Just checked my bike for Louisville and requested to observe inspection. Not a problem. They even asked me how I would like it repacked. I use an Ironcase so it's pretty fool proof unless you can't put a male and female clamp together. I suspect this is an issue for some.
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Congratulations on prevailing with USAA. They are a great company and I applaud them for find a way to pay your loss. For those of us unable to secure a USAA policy there is velosurance, a stand alone bicycle policy with world wide coverage for what ever can happen to your bike. Once again, well done.

---
Velosurance - Because Accidents Happen. Get your 5 second quote here

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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Ironma'am] [ In reply to ]
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After reading so many airline shipping horror stories over the past couple of years, I bought the Scicon Evolution and have only used FedX to ship my bike. Anything that involves the TSA you want to try and avoid......I know contacts inside and the entire organization, from their perspective and experience, is ridiculous. So far, I've shipped my bike via FedX 9 times last year and this year, so far without any issues. I don't know if the TSA checks the case but it appears not......everything has been in place when I open it up.....have it shipped directly to hotel. There have been threads in this forum on shipping by FedX through a couple of vendors that provide discounted rates. I get a discount through my company but I have checked these two vendors pricing recently and they both charge about the same (for FedX Ground).......example, around $80 from Philadelphia to Florida and Philadelphia to Milwaukee......and only takes two days. I don't doubt I may have an issue someday but I don't think its totally avoidable......shipping a fragile bike is somewhat risky......especially when you do it several times a year. But based on your experience and so many others in the past.....I think FedX might be the cheaper and less risky way to go. By the way, the Scicon has been great......hardshell......everything tied down.....easy locking......easy carry/transport. Easy packing.....I just remove wheels and loosen basebar. Was hesitant to spend the $750.....but well worth it so far. Hope this helps and glad you had success with your persistence.
Last edited by: gphin305: Aug 23, 13 8:00
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [gphin305] [ In reply to ]
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I think you present an interesting alternative to risking your bike with the airlines. How do you ship your sci con case? Does FedEx slap a label on the outside of the case or does the entire case with bike go into another cardboard shipping box? When you are in a different city where do you go to ship your bike home? Do you schedule a pickup or find a hub somewhere? Would this work overseas as well?
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Fenster] [ In reply to ]
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Fenster wrote:
I think you present an interesting alternative to risking your bike with the airlines. How do you ship your sci con case? Does FedEx slap a label on the outside of the case or does the entire case with bike go into another cardboard shipping box? When you are in a different city where do you go to ship your bike home? Do you schedule a pickup or find a hub somewhere? Would this work overseas as well?


When I leave for a race, I take it to my local FedX office.....usually the Tuesday before and it has always arrived at the hotel on Thursday. There is a built in slot on the bike case handle for a shipping label where they zip tie it on. The case does not need to be put in a cardboard box.......and after doing this 9 times so far, the only marks on the case are slight tape residue I haven't bothered to clean off. When the race is over, I pack it up in my hotel room (takes about half hour) and take it to a local FedX office......there is always one less than 10 minutes away. I always stay at a Marriot and a couple of them have had FedX offices right at their location so I never left the hotel. I could probably schedule a pick-up but, again, there is always an office close by. I know one of the two vendors, I think "Shipbikes.com" offers a pick up service both ways for, I believe, an extra $4-5 charge (each way). As far as overseas goes, I have no experience yet.......but am going to London next month for the AG Worlds so need to check into it.
Last edited by: gphin305: Aug 23, 13 9:04
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Re: United Airlines severely damaged tribike and refuses to pay. [Trigirl357] [ In reply to ]
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Is the USAA policy that is covering home or car? Thanks!
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