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$$/'04 can this be right?
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according to total cyclery, and the campyonly webpage:

rear der's: $............. record - 320, chorus - 220, DA - 99

cranks: $......... record - 736, chorus - 606, DA - 312.
Last edited by: t-t-n: Sep 26, 03 6:19
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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Yes it is...but you care comparing Campy Carbon cranks and Carbon Der to the old DA9 shit. Compare Campy Alumium cranks and they are closer the the ShimaNO stuff. Did you happen to miss the fact that the Durachee 10 speed will be about 30% more than old Durachee? That puts it higher than Record 10 (but not Record 10 with Carbon cranks). Make sure you compare apples to apples. (Kinda hard being as ShimaNO only produces Lemons)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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Campy rear derailleurs have always been ridiculously expensive. The good news is that a substantially cheaper Veloce or Centaur rear derailleur will also work.

The Campy crank prices have to be for the carbon versions. If the DA crank/BB combo is only $312, it's a steal.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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I just gotta know, because there is a lotta rage there: Were you cut off by loud mouth driver who screamed "Shimano Rules!" I'm not a proponent of either Shimano or Campy - they both make a great product, but I just gotta know where this rage against Shimano comes from...

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Animal!!!
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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record 9. those are '04 DA 10 speed prices from totalcyclery in american dollars.
Last edited by: t-t-n: Sep 26, 03 6:49
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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Shimano 9sp rear der - $75 at Performance Bike. The $99 has to be for the 10sp. I also have wonder (and laugh) at your venom towards Shimano. By all unbiased accounts Shimano and Campy are both top-quality products.

Yeah, yeah, Shimano also makes fishing reels. Lambourghini also made tractors but you don't hear anyone holding that against their fine automobiles.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]
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yes. wel iwas not intending to pi$$ our man record 9 off, nor make a statement vis a vis C vs S. but, it does seem the early claims of 10 spd DA being " more than record" were perhaps offbase to some degree. in the case of listed prices thus far the r.der is some 300+% percent MORE, not less. i thin kwe can pardon record9 for being a tad bit on edge, when faced with those numbers. i mean to say - even if you can get everybody to say C is better, is it more than 3 TIMES better? tough one. :)

anyway, i am curious to see if these prices hold, and what the price for a shifter/brake lever will be. those are not listed as yet, that i can see. carbon vs alu matters not to me. whatever. these are the offerings. obviously that DA "shit" is anything but - but everybody other than record 9 already knows that.

actually, i think the whole mess bodes extremely well for truvativ, and fsa, and the like. thebig dogs are gona get their knees cut out from under them, as most of the knockoff stuff is plenty functional. interesting stuff.
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Re: yeah shimano makes fishing reels.. [ In reply to ]
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Shimano does make fishing reels, and let me tell you they completely changed the market. Used to be you could only get basic American made reels that always required service. Shimano came in, offered way more features, better drag systems, smoother gears, and a no service lifetime product that blew the doors off ALL of the competition. The competitors are just now catching up (some of them at least, others are still stuck in the dark ages) and that was 15 years ago. Just my .02, since I worked on fishing boats growing up in the summers.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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Right off the bat, your pricing information is off. The 04 chorus and record prices are list, the DA price is from a super discounter. I would expect the street price for the Chorus to be very similar to 2003 Record. Also, it is pointless to compare DA and Record unless you want to show how expensive and extravagant Record is, but we already know this... From and price and performance standpoint, Chorus, which performs every bit as well as Record, is the groupset that needs to be compared to DA.

The 2004 Chorus rear derailleur is the 2003 record, and they had 2003 record for $181, The ONLY difference between this rear and the 2003 Chorus rear is the carbon fiber on the outside - everything else is identical including performance, bearings, etc. The carbon is just Bling Bling. To be fair, you really need to compare the Dura Ace to the 2003 Chorus - and you will notice that the Campy is $11 bucks cheaper.

On the cranks, it is a tough one. The Shimano cranks are unlike any cranks out there and require a proprietary bottom bracket - or part of a bottom bracket anyway. So the crankset is really $312 plus $27 for the BB. The record crankset is $186 plus $75 for the BB - Campy is still cheaper.

Looking at build kit prices for 2003 Chorus and 2004 Dura Ace 10, the DA is going to run $200 more - most of that is going to be in the cranks, though some is bound to be from the levers as well. From what I heard, 2004 Chorus without the Carbon cranks is going to be about $150 more than 2003, so the difference between the two groupsets is going to be pretty small.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
the old DA9 shit


Record9ti, you must be really cool, being a "Campy man" and bagging Shimano. Then again, shouldn't your name be Record10Cti, or are you not cool enough?

Yes, of course Campagnolo make great components. I know you've been posting on here for ages, and maybe you're intentionally exaggerating, but I would like to hear some fact about why Shimano Dura Ace is so "shit", because I have never had any problems with it at all (of course maybe I'm not good enough to know the difference, or maybe I am and the difference isn't worth the money?)
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [JohnA] [ In reply to ]
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"To be fair, you really need to compare the Dura Ace to the 2003 Chorus"

And why is that? I have always taken this to be a subtle jab at Shimano. People compare Record to Dura-Ace because they are the top offerings from each vendor. Comparing Chorus to DA is no different than comparing Sora to Record.

Regarding the crankset, you are correct that they are completely different. From a weight and stiffness perspective the old Dura-Ace cranks were superior to Chorus or Record or whatever you want to use, and the 2004 DA cranks will be even better. If the cost of the new integrated DA system is even close to the standard Campy aluminum cranks, DA (however ugly) has to be the winner.

Finally, note that all the prices you are seeing are from the UK. US prices on Campy stuff tend to be higher than they are in the UK.
Last edited by: john: Sep 26, 03 8:41
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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Another poster mentioned comparing apples to apples. Groups from both manufacturers perform the same function, but differ in their configuration. They are apples and oranges.

Personally, I like to buy apples where I like apples, and oranges where I like oranges. That means Ergo levers and derailleurs with Shimano everywhere else.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [john] [ In reply to ]
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But if you get the ergo levers and derailleurs, don't you need to get campy gearing (cassette, chainring, chain, bottom bracket)? So what is left for shimano? brakes - what else?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Animal!!!
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [muppet] [ In reply to ]
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"But if you get the ergo levers and derailleurs, don't you need to get campy gearing (cassette, chainring, chain, bottom bracket)?"

Not if you're using 9 speed.

Don't know yet if Campy 10 will work interchangeably with Dura-Ace 10, but my guess is that it will.
Last edited by: john: Sep 26, 03 8:53
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Re: yeah shimano makes fishing reels... [ In reply to ]
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It's a bit of a digression, but...

Rather than think about Shimano as a company that makes bikes part, fishing equipment, etc., which are not related, think of it like this: Shimano makes gears. And they make things that use gears. So it makes sense that they make fishing reels and bike drivetrains. The reasons they are so dominant in both fishing and bikes are listed by Ernie.

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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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To add to what you're saying, Campagnolo asks you to compare Dura Ace to Chorus, not Record. The features and benefits don't even compare with Record and Dura Ace. Chorus has (okay, until this year) a lack of carbon, which is more in line with Dura Ace.

I don't know what Campy will ask you to compare Dura Ace to after the release of carbon-enhanced Chorus.

What do I think? I think that Dura Ace is pretty nice (as I had used it as my very first brake/shift-type group in 1998), but my next bike is going to be a steel Colnago or Waterford with new C-Record 10 and all of the carbon bits. That stuff is the coolest. I miss the durability and rebuildability of my old Campy stuff.





Call me Big Dick
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [G Cottrell] [ In reply to ]
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I just love being a CampiNazi!!!



Cant change my name to record10..though I do ride Record 10 all my screen names are Record9...to much of a hassle to change my e-mail address and all.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [G Cottrell] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Campagnolo asks you to compare Dura Ace to Chorus, not Record.

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Hmmmmm.... why could that be? Is it because Record is in a class of it's own, or is it because if DA were compared to Record people would realize that you're paying a sh_tload more money for Record with no added benefit. It's not significantly lighter, it doesn't have any added features, it doesn't shift any better..... so what does all the carbon fiber do for you other than some snob appeal (and astronomical prices)? If I were Campy I wouldn't want Record compared to DA either.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [jkatsoudas] [ In reply to ]
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Why do people compare Record to DA? Its simple. If I want to build a bike with all the bells and whistles I have a choice of Campy or Shimano. (Yeah, yeah, I know Mavic makes some great pieces and so does FSA, etc, etc, but we're talking about the common and more or less full groupo here). I can either put Record in all its fine Italian glory or DA in its Asian mass production efficiency perfection on my new MegaCarboTiAlu frameset. So, when you look at the euro division 1 peleton or at the best multisport athletes out there you will see either DA or Record for the most part. Not until you see the second tier of competition do you start to see any of the lower groups from those companies in there. I don't care what Record 9 says, DA and Record perform at the same level. If they didn't the pro teams wouldn't ride them. Nobody rode Shimano until it raised its game. If you like esoteric value, as Record 9 obviously does, then the only choice is Record. However, esoterics have nothing to do with the performance level.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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it's a largely pointless debate. clearly either get the job done, but I don't think the euro pro connection should be a factor in an AGers decision. the pro's ride what they're paid to ride and have full time mechanics to keep it all running.

My take? Unless you've ridden both, keep your mouth shut (applies equally to Campy and Shimano riders). Until that happens, Campy riders will continue to revel in their elitist-ness, and Shimano riders will continue to respond defensively.

to bring this back to the original post, from the camponly.com mailing list:


"2004 PRICES--European bike shops are starting to stock the '04
line. Prices are pretty close to what we've paid for '03 items, with a few
exceptions. The '04 Record crankset, for instance, can be found for about
$130 less than the '03, based on current exchange rates. Some samples
(from on-line sources, not including shipping):

Record '04 rear derailleur: $231
Record '04 Ergo levers: $288
Record '04 carbon crankset: $571

"


so perhaps the numbers above won't be correct. we won't really know for sure until we get inventory in the states.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
If you like esoteric value, as Record 9 obviously does, then the only choice is Record. However, esoterics have nothing to do with the performance level.
That is it kinda...Record and Chorus feel damn near exactly the same - riding them. I do have Chorus on an older Litespeed Ultimate I have. I ride Record on my main bike because I can...it is the one thing I can go all out on and have "the best". I cant afford my "dream car" as it is over $350,000.00. I cant afford my dream house either...I can however have the best that there is on my bike. I can look at it have not once ever think "I should have gotton that other option". I know that my Record parts are the best that money can buy...I know that my King headset it the best on earth...I know that there is one thing in my life that I can have the best of...we all need that with just one thing in life. Having the best of something as materialistic as it is...is nice. It is nice to know that you have the best - even if it is only on your bicycle.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [brad in WA] [ In reply to ]
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"it's a largely pointless debate. clearly either get the job done"

Yup, exactly.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [john] [ In reply to ]
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Comparing Chorus to DA is no different than comparing Sora to Record.


Not even close. Sora is not a "substitute" for Record when weighed on performance characteristics alone. Chorus, on the other hand, is both technically competitive and price competitive with Dura Ace - they are substitutes for one another.

Currently, Shimano does not make a substitute for Record. Record is going after a market that cares about appearance and using the latest and greatest, and is willing to pay a premium for it - performance is not the deciding factor for them. Someone who is going to say "Hmmm, is Record really going to shift and brake $1000 better than Dura Ace?" is simply not going to buy Record. Period. No rational person can make that argument. If, however, outside factors heavily influence that person - things like having the latest and greatest, having people compliment your cool carbon fiber components, and feeling like you are part of an exclusive club, then the $1000 is buying much more than performance.

I am not trying to insult Shimano - they make great stuff. When I was building my new bike, I decided to upgrade my groupset from Campy Daytona. I looked at the market and the two groups that were at the price point and quality level I was looking for were Dura Ace and Chorus. The deciding factor for me really came down to the levers - I like the feel of the Campy levers and the fact that the brake lever is fixed rather than part of the shifting mechanism. Since I was able to get a great deal on the Chorus groupset, I did splurge get the Record shifters simply because they were "cool" looking...
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [JohnA] [ In reply to ]
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"Not even close. Sora is not a "substitute" for Record when weighed on performance characteristics alone. Chorus, on the other hand, is both technically competitive and price competitive with Dura Ace - they are substitutes for one another."

Do both Sora and Record have components that perform the same function? Of course. So do Chorus, Veloce, Mirage, Xenon, Centaur, 105, Ultegra, Dura-Ace. Even Mektronic works (sometimes). You can "substitute" any group for another on a frameset and the complete bike will still steer, brake, and shift. Pitting DA against the heavier, flimsy-cranked, weak rear-braked Chorus is just as arbitrary as pitting Sora versus Record.

I'm not a Campyphobe, if I was buying a new road grouppo and didn't need compatibility with the rest of my fleet, I would probably buy 2004 Chorus. But if you want to say that Dura-Ace is only as good as Chorus, I want to hear your objective arguments. Just because some magazine, some LBS poser, or some website says it does not make it fact.
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Re: $$/'04 can this be right? [john] [ In reply to ]
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I'm using the term "substitute" in the economic or marketing sense. Let's take cars for example. A single urban, liberal Berkeley grad is thinking of buying a Toyota Prius, but Mercedes is offering a $2000 rebate on the brand new, $55,000 E500 Sedan. Does this sway their decision to buy the Prius? Not really, the Benz is not a substitute for the Prius, despite the fact that they perform the same function and both will get you to and from the corner market. If, however, Honda just released a brand new Civic Hybrid, this might influence the decision to buy the Prius. The Civic is a "substitute".
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