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Extreme forward position
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In my 16 years of fitting, the last three with Retul equipment, I have never seen a client with a position as far forward as the gentleman I fit yesterday. For those without Retul experience, the suggested range for knee forward of foot in a Tri/TT position is 50-100mm.In a large percentage of the Tri/TT fits I've done( probably 200 or so with the Retul equipment), I've moved the client forward to some extent. I've often struggled with older TT frames, except Cervelos, to get the client far enough forward to be within this range. This particular client measured 133mm knee forward of foot on his Softride Rocket, a position not even possible on most other bikes. He has done 14 IMs in this position and wanted me to explain in detail why I suggested that we move him back. After talking about overall balance on the bike and that much has already been written about the Softride's reluctance to turn, he asked about power production. I again talked about a balance between hip flexor/quad usage and we moved him back 20mm front end and saddle. He then stated that it felt like I had put him in a "no man's land" and that he could feel his quads being worked more. I explained why this was and we agreed to continue the fit after he put in some time in this new position.

I would like to get some comment on this situation and what other fitters might do in a situation like this one.
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Re: Extreme forward position [billhardin] [ In reply to ]
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How tall is he? Not uncommon for me to have taller riders further forward than Retul's range.
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Re: Extreme forward position [tom@a-lounge] [ In reply to ]
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He is 5'8", so not that tall and not abnormally long thighs either.
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Re: Extreme forward position [billhardin] [ In reply to ]
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It's obviously difficult for someone who has done 14 IM's in this position to feel comfortable with any change, especially right out of the gate. But, I would ask him why he came in for a refit in the first place if he didn't want some kind of change. I think you did the proper thing: let him get some miles with the saddle / front end back a little and see how he does.
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Re: Extreme forward position [billhardin] [ In reply to ]
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You see your problem is that you have only been fitting for 16 years. If it had been 26 years then you would know that virtually all of us back in the day(late 80's early 90's) rode at or in front of what is now considered illegal. (5cm in front of BB) I still ride with mine right at 5 and nose ride, so really in the 87 degree area. I have an old cervelo with the seat post turned around. There is nothing wrong with this guys selection, i would be in the same boat.

Remember originally that 80 degrees was the standard seat tube angle when tri bikes were invented and most of us rode with the seat all the forward on those bikes, and nose rode. It was the industry that pushed us back, not the viability of the position.
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Re: Extreme forward position [billhardin] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Bill,

The Retul range of 50-100 mm is a range that in recent articles by Retul were stretched out a bit. I just recently read, and I think it was on the Retul forum, that with really steep seatangles with a rotated pelvis the range can easily stretch to 135 mm at no problem.
As Monty says back in the days, and gosh I m feeling old now, we used to ride even frames with a 90 degree steep sa from speedliner.
So no problem to let the guy ride as steep as he was. Remember Retul recommended ranges are just a recommendation not a definte rule.
In the end you are the fitter ;-)

Regards,

Jeroen
Tri-Run

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Extreme forward position [billhardin] [ In reply to ]
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Bill,

I'm curious- you said after you had moved him rear-ward...he felt like he was engaging his quads more. Was this in comparison to more glute or more hipflexor engagement that he was experiencing when he was more forward?

Thanks!

Joe Hydrick * http://www.HyLineEndurance.com *
USA Cycling L2 Coach - FIST Certified
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Re: Extreme forward position [billhardin] [ In reply to ]
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any computranier spinscan chats to see before and after muscle usage? knee too far forward puts undo pressure on the joint...body will not like when get older.

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Re: Extreme forward position [hideano] [ In reply to ]
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Are you certain that the placement of the sensors was correct? I would guess that you might have been a touch off with those which might have added to the effect. Often I see that they "move" if you don't watch them closely.
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Re: Extreme forward position [callen] [ In reply to ]
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Besides the handling issues if the athlete isn't having any pain or complaints, why would you suggest a different position. The body can adapt, obviously what is normative isn't always what is best.
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Re: Extreme forward position [hideano] [ In reply to ]
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Please explain how knee too far forward puts undo pressure on the joint.

Jonathan Blyer,
ACME Bicycle Co., Brooklyn, NY
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Re: Extreme forward position [jonblyer] [ In reply to ]
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Did you look at any physiological markers? EKG, VO2, Tidal flow, Spin Scan. Some times its perception VS. reality. I test for measurable changes .Sometimes they are much more efficient and perceive the position as not working hard enough. You need to watch out for this

Happy
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