Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [CensoredCyclist] [ In reply to ]

Feb 5, 13 21:03

Post #251 of 287 (4788 views)

CensoredCyclist wrote:

AmaDablam wrote:

Armstrong is now under criminal investigation.http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=18415386

You beat me to it. ;)

It seems he's out of the woods on all the real hard stuff that could send him to jail, but is still being pursued on the incident with Tyler.

Would Tyler even want him prosecuted for that in this new time of TRC?

I'd be kinda embarrassed on behalf of the feds if they did bother to file charges. Doubt they'd even get a conviction either. Armstrong may not quite come across well on the TV to some people, but in person he is very, very good. The jury would love him.

What a waste of time.

He is no different in person. Have you seen him in person? I have. Smooth, yes. Believable? No more so than on Oprah.

Regardless, he's not the big prize, and like any criminal I want to see him punished if they can prove he did things in the timeframe allowable for prosecution. I'd much rather see him provide the truth, which so far we've seen maybe 5 minutes of.

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]

Feb 5, 13 21:21

Post #252 of 287 (4771 views)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP4viJU3iLc

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Feb 5, 13 21:21

Post #253 of 287 (4771 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Ben, I really don't have much interest in arguing the LA points. I'm just saying that LA is a creation of the environment he grew up in (just like all children are). Yes he grew up, became a man, and became "management" and did what management did while he was growing up as a young cyclist. I'd just like to see various team managers being taken to task. Bjaarne Riis was known as Mr.60% when he beat Miguel Indurain at the 1996 tour. Remember that 40K stage on the snow covered roads to Sestriere where he totally buried Indurain. Then magically when he was running team CSC, he'd take journeymen riders and make champions out of them. Tyler goes to CSC in 2003, breaks a collarbone and magically rides to 4th at the Tour under Riis.

Then next year, Tyler goes over to Phonak and Iban Mayo from Euskatel totally buried an already doped Lance on the Mont Ventoux at the 2004 Dauphine ITT. Do you think it was magic that they guys were buring the doped out King of his time, or do you think that these riders had some help from their team management?

Just in case you don't remember that day, here are the results from Bedouin to Mont Venoux. This was one of the most Epic ITT hillclimbs from that generation....note the Phonak dominance with Tyler, Sevilla, Landaluze, Guttierez, Pereiro, Dessel all the top 20. That's totally wild....and Tyler was smoking the doped chicken Rassmussen by 3 minutes on VENTOUX.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/...4/?id=results/stage4

1 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 55.51.49 (23.202 km/h) 2 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 0.35.26 3 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 1.03.09 4 Juan Miguel Mercado (Spa) Quick.Step-Davitamon 1.48.44 5 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 1.57.89 6 Inigo Landaluze (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 2.22.75 7 Jos� Gutierrez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.44.09 8 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank 3.21.18 9 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 3.33.38 10 St�phane Goubert (Fra) Ag2R Prevoyance 3.35.81 11 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 3.55.55 12 David Moncoutie (Fra) Cofidis, le credit par Telephone 3.59.03 13 Cyril Dessel (Fra) Phonak Hearing Systems 4.03.20 14 Floyd Landis (USA) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 4.09.14 15 Jos� Azevedo (Por) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 4.18.24 16 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole 4.37.09 17 Michael Rogers (Aus) Quick.Step-Davitamon 4.44.95 18 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 5.08.52 19 Sandy Casar (Fra) FDJeux.com 5.29.49 20 Victor Hugo Pena (Col) US Postal presented by Berry Floor 5.29.88....so yeah, now that we have Lance can we get to some of the other management that were making the dope game happen?

I'm not saying Lance is the only one; far from it. I'd love to see Riis finally pay for what he did. The team doctors, the distributors, all the team management from any team that required or pressured young riders to dope need to be brought to task. When Lance was winning his last 3 or 4 tours he was in his 30's. That's an adult; and all the dopers who aren't in their very young 20's need to face up to that fact. But there's a differnce between being the boss, and doing what it takes to hold onto a job. And I don't buy for a second that Lance was a creation of the doping era; because there are personalities who are competitive, who want to win, who had the skills to be in Europe, who went home, or raced domestically rather than cheat. Some of them are still around racing domestically, some are coaching, taking over for the guys who made the mess in the first place. Maybe you could go back to his childhood, that's where the person he is was molded; when his mom sat in Greg Lemond's kitchen when he was just in his very early 20's and begged Greg and Kathy to reach out to him because she saw what he was becoming, and hoped they could help him, because she couldnt get through to him anymore.

Beyond lance, the thing you're not taking into account is that the US (and maybe france) are really the only places where this will really get traction to start. Look at Puerto, all these years it finally comes to trial, and Fuentes gets to keep the names to himself from the other sports. WADA is hamstrung by the culture of turning a blind eye in many countries to the sins of their sporting heroes. Even England now, Walsh who so famously dogged Lance all those years, is seemingly falling in line with Sky's "marginal gains" line. I'm not making a judgement either way on Wiggins & Co, i'm just saying that the nationalism gets in the way of a lot. Look at us here with football. Baseball is the only major pro sport really taking things to task; it took Bud Selig a LONG time to become a believer, but when he did. he went all out; Baseball has it's own investigation arm, and they're working that case in florida hard. And a lot of the respected folks in and out of sport, including the ESPN Behind the Lines guys I've talked to say there's no way MLB would feel they had the poltical cover to be moving on this kind of stuff if it weren't for the current climate about doping starting to take hold, and they chalk a lot of that up to USADA v Postal conspiracy.

You and I agree a lot more than we disagree. We both want the same thing; it's just my opinion that you don't see that Lance is still where all this flows through right now. Until he gives testimony that the UCI was indeed corrupt and that USAC facilitated things as well, we won't really see things move forward.

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]

Feb 5, 13 21:26

Post #254 of 287 (4764 views)

furiousferret wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP4viJU3iLc

You know, honestly, while it's amusing and all, I'm not for seeing the guy humiliated beyond what he needs to be. If he pays back who he owes, if he makes a sincere effort to become a better person (because that's the foundation for all these guys that lead others to dope, morally missing something), works to really clean up the sport, and not just get back to racing, I'm fine with whatever happens. I don't know that he needs jail time, because we've basically made it that cheating in sport is not a criminal action. Granted a lot of his techniques involved breaking non-sporting laws, so I'll leave that to the government to decide. The more I thought about it, I can handle him racing again; I certainly wouldn't ever trust him to be clean, because even now he lies about 2009 and 2010. But if he truly gives over all he knows, I believe in "second chances" (i put that in quotes cause this is like well beyond his second chance to come clean), I just don't know with Lance's personality that he has it in him to do it.

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]

CensoredCyclist

Feb 5, 13 21:46

Post #255 of 287 (4739 views)

pick6 wrote:

He is no different in person. Have you seen him in person? I have. Smooth, yes. Believable? No more so than on Oprah.

Even the Andreu's said he came across to them in person much better than in the interview.

People in the sport will be tearing the hair out if the feds try to push this. He's already been singled out and scapegoated like no other person in the history of the sport, and now the story MIGHT drag on for another few years at least.

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [CensoredCyclist] [ In reply to ]

Feb 5, 13 21:52

Post #256 of 287 (4737 views)

CensoredCyclist wrote:

pick6 wrote:

He is no different in person. Have you seen him in person? I have. Smooth, yes. Believable? No more so than on Oprah.

Even the Andreu's said he came across to them in person much better than in the interview.

People in the sport will be tearing the hair out if the feds try to push this. He's already been singled out and scapegoated like no other person in the history of the sport, and now the story MIGHT drag on for another few years at least.

They said he sounded sincere, not that he was being anymore truthful. He told them he wouldnt tell the truth about the hospital room. Intentionally being dishonest to protect the criminal acts of another.

I disagree that he's been scapegoated, he had plenty to be punished for. You clearly don't think that, but it's been proven and partially admitted to. As people pulling their hair out, sure, some might, but the ones who have a look at the bigger picture know this is for the good of the sport. look at Phinney and others of the new generation, they don't like the doping questions but they understand it.

Last edited by: pick6: Feb 6, 13 21:59

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [CensoredCyclist] [ In reply to ]

Feb 5, 13 22:19

Post #257 of 287 (4717 views)

...........

Quote:

As stated, anyone who wanted to be a on top team in the top race of the era had to dope. Many riders doped before they rode with Armstrong. The rest continued to dope after they left, some at higher levels. Nobody was forced.

This may or may not be true. We do know from the reasoned decision that the vast majority of the place getters during that period have all had issues with drugs at one time or another. It is probably reasonable to assume that a large number of riders in the peleton were also on the juice.

The big problem I have with LA's actions is that as the lead rider of the strongest team in pro cycling at the time is that he, along Bruyneel and the various others at Tailwind ramped up the PED's to the max and in doing so put pressure on riders who may have otherwise chosen not to dope to do so. For LA personally, with the best doctors, the best monitoring and a very well funded team, there was little or no risk to his health. Sadly for some others who were in poorer teams or who were trying to break into the bigtime, they rolled the dice with drugs, drew the short straw and ended up in an early grave. In 2003 - 4 alone, there were seven riders who died as a result.

Just to be clear, LA is not responsible for putting the needle in their arm - nor did he directly force them to take drugs in the first place, but, he was a major contributor to the pervasive culture of PED use in pro cycling and, that culture led to the needless death of quite a number of young fit men.

As with everything else in life, Drugs in Sport is never a level playing field. Those with deep pockets and good backup have a clear advantage (if only in ensuring they stay alive) over those who do not have similar resources at their disposal. I don't give a rats behind who may or may not win the next TdF, nor what time they take to do so, but I do care deeply that everything humanly possible should be done to eliminate unnecessary risk to the athletes health and safety through the use of PED's

The big problem for LA at the moment and, as others in this thread have noted, the reason he is singled out for a different penalty than other drug cheats is that the others have provided fully and frank disclosure of what they did, and who was involved. Armstrong continues to avoid providing a full and frank disclosure to the USADA. Personally, regardless of what he may or may not do vis a vis disclosure to USADA, I hope the life ban is retained as I would not want to see him active in any organised sport ever. Again, imho, the USADA is right to do everything they can to get him and others to tell the whole storey. Chances are it will lead to a sweep out at the top of UCI or elsewhere. Whilst painful right now, it will hopefully lead to a better outcome for the riders.

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]

Feb 5, 13 23:31

Post #258 of 287 (4675 views)

Maui5150 wrote:

monty wrote:

Again to me the doping is secondary to LA, I look to the lives he destroyed,//

I see this statement thrown around all the time, whose lives exacty did he destroy?? I see some guys who did drugs that lost their jobs, or changed teams, but they all seem to be doing fine now. We all lose jobs in the real world and have to make life changes, but our lives are not destroyed. Betsy seems to be doing just fine, doing the talk show circut and certainly has some book deal in the works. Tyler is fine, Floyd is fine, I see Frankie on tv commentating the tour, in fact they all seem to be doing better than lance at the moment. All of his ex teamates who testified agains him that were racing, are all still racing, and have kept their clothing lines, big houses, most sponsors, etc. IF he destroyed anyone's life, it is his own, and i do not see that even. He will recover from this episode somehow and move on with some sort of nice life i would guess. People were inconvienced and hurt by lance, but a lot of that was also their own doing too. But i see no destroyed lives here by any means. There are a lot of course changes in lives, but that was going to happen eventually for everyone that is a pro cyclist, and for everyone that participates in our culture today, just the way it goes. Very few of us get a smooth path through life without any bumps in the road, it is how we deal with them that sets people apart..

Have you ever been sued or targeted by a wealthy person or powerful corporation.

My family has. EDS had targeted my sister because she left the company before her contract was up (they had violated several terms which led to her leaving)

They were completely in the wrong, knew they were in the wrong, yet wanted to make an "example" and basically stated... We don't care what our contract says, we will do what we want and if you try and back out of your end, we will sue you into the ground."

We were lucky. One of our good friends happened to be a brilliant retired corporate lawyer from a major defense contractor and did the work for us over the next 3 years pro-bono. It is extremely stressful, especially when you start looking at the smear things corporations do like hiring private investigators, spreading lies to companies you are interviewing with (imagine sitting down to an interview and the interviewer starts asking you about things the company has contacted them about which are lies)

"You said you left. We were contact and told that not only were you fired, that they are have lawsuits against you for the harm and damages you did during your course of employment"

We won. Took forever and it was brutal. Especially when you are facing judgements more than you can afford, are fighting lies, and have someone not afraid to manufacturer evidence (like Lance telling Lemond he would find 20 people to say he doped)

Going through the legal ringer SUCKS, is painful, frustrating, and expensive.

Very true. I was in a similar situation. I won, but the stress, the frustration, the sleepless nights, the anxiety...

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [ In reply to ]

Feb 6, 13 13:13

Post #259 of 287 (4529 views)

If you want to get a sense of what happens on the inside a professional doping regime, have a read of Victor Conte's letter in http://news.bbc.co.uk/...thletics/7403158.stm

A real eye opener - seems to also raise a few questions for USADA (and I am sure a lot of other countries sports drug agencies!) as well.

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Ian_K] [ In reply to ]

Feb 6, 13 13:24

Post #260 of 287 (4517 views)

holy cow - a fascinating read. thanks very much for that.

i've posted it a million times, but for the record, here's a first-hand account of the impact of some of those drugs for a 'like us' kind of athlete:

http://www.outsideonline.com/...g-Test.html?page=all

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]

Feb 6, 13 15:44

Post #261 of 287 (4467 views)

I've been trying to read Dan's article on bike fits, but this article sidetracked me. Great article.

One thing: I'm okay with an athlete using a supplement to promote healing. They beat up their bodies for their sport. Why not let them use something that gets them back into the game sooner? (Also, as long as they're under the care of a board certified doctor.)

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]

Feb 6, 13 15:49

Post #262 of 287 (4462 views)

Like Lance's drs

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Kenney] [ In reply to ]

Feb 6, 13 15:51

Post #263 of 287 (4458 views)

Are they Board Certified? ;)

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]

Feb 6, 13 16:33

Post #264 of 287 (4427 views)

Yes the are/were!!

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]

Feb 6, 13 21:58

Post #265 of 287 (4341 views)

TriBeer wrote:

I've been trying to read Dan's article on bike fits, but this article sidetracked me. Great article.

One thing: I'm okay with an athlete using a supplement to promote healing. They beat up their bodies for their sport. Why not let them use something that gets them back into the game sooner? (Also, as long as they're under the care of a board certified doctor.)

Because the line is WAY too easy to cross and way too hard to monitor. There are times when an injury allows for use of a banned substance for healing; that's what TUE's are for. Just don't try to get one for HGH, Testosterone, or similar class of obvious performance enhancers unless you have a life threatening disease or illness.

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [CensoredCyclist] [ In reply to ]

Feb 7, 13 1:24

Post #266 of 287 (4305 views)

CensoredCyclist wrote:

AmaDablam wrote:

Armstrong is now under criminal investigation.http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=18415386

You beat me to it. ;)

It seems he's out of the woods on all the real hard stuff that could send him to jail, but is still being pursued on the incident with Tyler.

Would Tyler even want him prosecuted for that in this new time of TRC?

I'd be kinda embarrassed on behalf of the feds if they did bother to file charges. Doubt they'd even get a conviction either. Armstrong may not quite come across well on the TV to some people, but in person he is very, very good. The jury would love him.

What a waste of time.

Maybe if you could remove his cock from your mouth for a few seconds, you might have a different perspective.

Post deleted by Freelancer [ In reply to ]

Feb 7, 13 3:34

Post #267 of 287 (4275 views)

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]

CensoredCyclist

Feb 7, 13 12:11

Post #268 of 287 (4203 views)

So since coming clean on Oprah, Lance could potentially be prosecuted, and now is being sued by SCA (thanks, Betsy!).

Not the best advert for confessing.

It's also not so hard to see why someone would get pissed off at those that tried to spill the beans over the years, eh?

Last edited by: CensoredCyclist: Feb 7, 13 12:12

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [CensoredCyclist] [ In reply to ]

Feb 7, 13 13:24

Post #269 of 287 (4161 views)

he hasn't confessed. confessing is when you go under oath, and talk to the authorities, at their leisure and on their terms.

lance had a chat with a talk show host.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]

CensoredCyclist

Feb 7, 13 13:28

Post #270 of 287 (4153 views)

iron_mike wrote:

he hasn't confessed. confessing is when you go under oath, and talk to the authorities, at their leisure and on their terms.

lance had a chat with a talk show host.

-mike

Check the dictionary defintion of confessing. ;)

No honestly he confessed to most of it - far more than people were expecting. He is being punished for that now.

The message is clear to others in the sport: keep your mouth shut. If you don't, every scam artist and hot shot cop will be looking to exploit you.

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [CensoredCyclist] [ In reply to ]

Feb 7, 13 14:11

Post #271 of 287 (4129 views)

Imagine being banned from a cycling board for trolling, and then coming back with about 30 different usernames, only to be banned again each time..

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [NAB777] [ In reply to ]

CensoredCyclist

Feb 7, 13 14:19

Post #272 of 287 (4305 views)

NAB777 wrote:

Imagine being banned from a cycling board for trolling, and then coming back with about 30 different usernames, only to be banned again each time..

Yeah, it sucks. Thanks for your support on this. You can follow me on twitter though. CN's punishment of dissenting voices on Armstrong hasn't stop me.

Just to add, I have been promised I won't be censored on Dim's forum. Might show up there soon. lol.

Last edited by: CensoredCyclist: Feb 7, 13 14:25

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [NAB777] [ In reply to ]

Feb 7, 13 14:28

Post #273 of 287 (3694 views)

NAB777 wrote:

Imagine being banned from a cycling board for trolling, and then coming back with about 30 different usernames, only to be banned again each time..

30? I am pretty sure he has been banned more than a 100 times at CN. Twice in just the last couple days.

They don't suffer trolls and liars lightly over there.

Last edited by: AmaDablam: Feb 7, 13 14:28

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [AmaDablam] [ In reply to ]

CensoredCyclist

Feb 7, 13 14:44

Post #274 of 287 (3673 views)

AmaDablam wrote:

NAB777 wrote:

Imagine being banned from a cycling board for trolling, and then coming back with about 30 different usernames, only to be banned again each time..

30? I am pretty sure he has been banned more than a 100 times at CN. Twice in just the last couple days.

They don't suffer trolls and liars lightly over there.

Of course, they don't even pretend it's for trolling. It's for coming back on after being banned for something completely trivial about 4 years ago. The trick they use against people they disagreed with was to give them two year ban, knowing the person would come back on. Then they give a perma ban for breaking the ban. However the ban they give to their friends is like two days to a week. To her credit, I did get the admin Susan to admit I wasn't banned for trolling. That's why I'm always polite and stick to the issue. It makes them look like crap that they then ban me for no obvious reason.

You got to remember with that forum the center of gravity is way out of the mainstream. On twitter you can talk to serious people - journalists, riders, team owners, comentators - and though you can disagree on an issue, they never come out with the bullshit you see on CN. It's got quite a reputation. Many of its users are banned around the internet for serious trolling, violent threats and bullying. Indeed, they often talk about how they like to troll this forum.

Last edited by: CensoredCyclist: Feb 7, 13 14:46

Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [CensoredCyclist] [ In reply to ]

Feb 7, 13 14:44

Post #275 of 287 (3672 views)

CensoredCyclist wrote:

iron_mike wrote:

he hasn't confessed. confessing is when you go under oath, and talk to the authorities, at their leisure and on their terms.

lance had a chat with a talk show host.

-mike

Check the dictionary defintion of confessing. ;)

No honestly he confessed to most of it - far more than people were expecting. He is being punished for that now.

The message is clear to others in the sport: keep your mouth shut. If you don't, every scam artist and hot shot cop will be looking to exploit you.

clearly not. Because others are coming forward at a pace of about 1-2 per week since Lance's USADA decision across the world. So to say people arent confessing isn't true. We've had 2 come forward in the last 48 hours. So I think what you're missing is that people are seeing what happened to Lance and saying "I do not want to get sued or go to jail, so I'm going to tell what I know". It's called a cautionary tale, and it's working. NADA's are finding people finally willing to talk.

Lance isnt being sued because he doped or because he confessed. he is being sued because he sued others for telling the truth.

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