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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]
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TriBeer wrote:
I agree, david, did a nice job of describing the cast of characters in this drama. Tygarts hyperfocus on LA reminds me of Captain Ahab's pursuit of Moby-Dick. It's not good for his health. IMHO.


The point, which you STILL don't seem to get is that Lance is every bit the cautionary tale that Moby Dick is, except it's a cautionary tale for dopers. In the end it WILL all come crashing down around you.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
He had for the past year plus, been fighting being part of the system but went along to that point because Lance had made it clear that guys who werent going along were getting canned. //

I don't think Lance deserves all the blame for Frankie dropping out of cycling. Lance had control over his team, there were 25 other teams out there to ride for. The real problem for Frankie was that in order to be good enough to ride on "any" team, he was going to have to most likely dope. It was the peleton that canned him really. IF he could have ridden clean and been good enough, he could have rode on another team. To put his whole career demise on Lance only seems a little harsh to me. Lance just sent the same message that every other team was sending out to each and every rider, either blatant or implied..

I mostly agree, although I put a lot of it on Lance because from the more we've learned the reason USPS stuck out so much is that all the domestiques and lieutenants were doped, so it's why they could have 5 or 6 guys driving the front of the race day after day, when other teams weren't capable of such feats. Lance made Frankie and others believe it was true across other teams with his insistence, backed by Johan, that the supporters were doped on all those teams. They weren't; but if you're told something often enough you begin to believe it. So, why go look for work elsewhere if it's gonna be the same thing. When JV left USPS he found first hand that even as team lead he wasn't being required to dope, but wasn't able to keep up with the other team leads (who we've seen were doping) without it.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, LA is a cautionary tale, but you must admit that Tygart is also. Tygart loses credibility by continuing this dialogue in the press. He caught Moby and needs to move on for awhile.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [erik haas] [ In reply to ]
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erik haas wrote:
TriBeer wrote:
.

Tygart's goal is to clean up sports and not just go after one person.

:)


Yes !

I'd really like to know what other cases Travis is working on now this one has come to its conclusion

We didn't know about Lance's case until it became public. You guys act like this is the only thing USADA has worked on. Leading up to the Olympics there were several sanctions or warnings given out to US olympic athletes. This is a down time for a lot of sports that USADA has prevalence over, so it's a good time to be doing PR, focusing the notice on the fact that even the richest best protected dopers will be caught and punished. out of competition testing is still going on and 8 athletes have received sanctions since Lance.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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There really never is any "down" time. The out of competition testing is probaly as important as any in competition test. This is where you can get the most benefit from doping, increasing your training load while working on easier recovery if you cheat.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
There really never is any "down" time. The out of competition testing is probaly as important as any in competition test. This is where you can get the most benefit from doping, increasing your training load while working on easier recovery if you cheat.

I agree, Im just saying that the total number of tests is down because OOC volume is less than OOC + racing volume of tests.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]
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TriBeer wrote:
Yes, LA is a cautionary tale, but you must admit that Tygart is also. Tygart loses credibility by continuing this dialogue in the press. He caught Moby and needs to move on for awhile.


No, I absolutely do not agree. He's using this press as a chance to keep the dialogue on anti-doping high. If you're the cop "that caught Al Capone", do you run away from that, or do you make sure it stays in the mind of every athlete that you can't test as often as you like, every athlete who is struggling for results, every athlete that wants that next big payday, and make them think before the next time they dope.

Don't let your love for Lance cloud you from the bigger picture. Tygart is not losing credibility, he's gaining it. It's keeping the pressure on Lance to tell the full truth. He has 2 more days.
Last edited by: pick6: Feb 4, 13 10:00
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [erik haas] [ In reply to ]
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This is a good place to start: http://usada.org/sanctions
I count 18 cycling-related sanctions released between January 13, 2012 and December 31, 2012. As far as I'm aware, only 9 of those have anything to do with Armstrong & Co.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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What happens in 2 days?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
What happens in 2 days?

USADA's deadline to come clean, name names, etc
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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What are they going to give him in return for that info? Has it been stated?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
What are they going to give him in return for that info? Has it been stated?


It hasn't been officially stated other than "his lifetime ban becomes permanent". I can't verify much, but what I have heard is that when lance and ty sat down in Denver, lance hinted at what he could say, and still left the UCI out of it, and the lowest Ty was willing to go was 8 years. Lance wants to race now, and really feels slighted he didnt get more for being willing to give up his own details. Tygart wants ALL of it before he's willing to consider significant reduction. Lance can say only WADA can fix stuff outside the US, but WADA can say USADA is our NADA acting under our direction; if you want sentence discounts, you need to tell USADA what you know.
Last edited by: pick6: Feb 4, 13 10:35
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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That explains why LA wants to go before WADA and not USADA to testfy.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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It's okay that we don't agree. I do understand what you're saying. I just believe the Tygart's hyperbole on 60 minutes was over the top. It hurts his effectiveness.



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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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Why isn't Tygart (Ty) pressing other dopers on the 2012 sanctioned list for more details of their PED use? We could learn a lot from them too.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
OK, but how many of those other pro teams are based in the US, i.e., within Tygart's bailiwick?//

WHat does that have to do with whether Frakie could have gotten a job on any of the other teams? I'm not getting your point. Lance made sure he did not ride on his team, but it was a free market out there. IF he was good enough he could have gone to dozens of other teams, unless you think Lance controled all the teams? Now that would be some serious conspiracy shit...

I'm not disagreeing that Frankie could have theoretically gotten a job on another (non-US) team if he were good enough to do so w/o doping, my point is simply going with the fact that this whole thread started with LA acting as though USADA is singling him out unfairly, and in USADA's terms what happens (or doesn't happen) with other foreign teams is outside of their scope so it's beside the point.

If LA were coercing guys on his team to dope or be shitcanned (which certainly seems to have been the case), I think that's still reasonable evidence of USADA's charges that LA was 'pushing' and not just using himself. Whether FA might have had further options doesn't eliminate the fact that LA was still trying to strong-arm people to the extent that he possibly could... It's a little like if I threatened to shoot you even though I don't have a gun or calling in a fake bomb threat; the threat itself is still a 'real' offense even if it's factually hollow.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]
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Who's to say Tygart isn't welcoming/soliciting further testimony from any other riders? You say you want him to move on now that he's 'caught' his white whale, but then you say he should still be hounding others besides LA? Tygart isn't the one who initiated this whole limited confession circus on Oprah, so if LA makes it into a media event and the media in turn wants to hear from the policing agency's side, what's TT supposed to do, go lock himself in his office? "Uh, Lance who? Sorry, no comment, I'm too busy going back over my transcripts from Levi & GH right now." Tygart will go away as soon as LA cooperates, and then we can all move on, but if LA wants to keep dragging it out in the media, then it will keep being dragged out in the media.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]
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TriBeer wrote:
Why isn't Tygart (Ty) pressing other dopers on the 2012 sanctioned list for more details of their PED use? We could learn a lot from them too.

There's the issue, you're under the misbelief he's not. The rest of the folks sanctioned in the USPS case gave up names, I believe they all gave up multiple names besides Lance, it's how guys like Rick Crawford got busted, and then later fired from his college cycling coaching spot. Next, there's a recent statement from Vaughters that there's "a lot more to his 8 hours of testimony than the statement in the lance file" He mentioned other ongoing investigations, but of course he's not part of USADA, so all he could say is what he talked about. This is all happening in the public domain, or mostly so. Read about WADA pushing for the evidence in the Fuentes case, there are Americans involved there too, and Tygart would love to get his hands on that, but the Spanish judges are not making it easy.

You have to realize that they're talking about Lance because he's the biggest name, because it hits home with the public, and because you don't talk about other ongoing cases until you're ready to bring charges. Being sore because he's using his Armstrong victory lap to push the idea of anti-doping isn't the right way to think about it. There's a much larger benefit to this. A lot of the people I've talked to say they 100% believe that the Armstrong verdict is what is giving MLB cover with the MLBPA to be persuing the anti-aging clinics in florida that A-Rod & others are wrapped up in. The whole of the process is slow, but it has huge implications. Imagine if WADA actually gets the fuentes case evidence; there are big name european soccer players/clubs involved, one of the former club presidents says his club may have paid as much as 300k to Fuentes for a team doping process.

So where you see "they hate lance" I see a long line of Dominos that start to fall with Lance just one of the early important ones that starts the whole chain.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
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Runguy wrote:
That explains why LA wants to go before WADA and not USADA to testfy.

It's really a multi-fold reasoning:

1. Tygart beat him and it's killing him he got beat, and the last thing he wants to do is play ball with Tygart.
2. Lance thinks he can get around the system by working directly with WADA. Problem is, WADA has already stood behind USADA. USADA is the sanctioning agent, so they have to be the body to reduce the sanction. Further, even if they want to, they have to go to WADA with the "exceptional circumstances" to get it approved. And it has to start with USADA proposing it to WADA, otherwise WADA wouldn't get involved. Now if WADA went ahead and opened A Truth & Reconciliation, then MAYBE lance could work through them, but that's looking less and less likely, because the UCI won't play ball (it's suspected because Lance would rat them out for collusion).
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
There really never is any "down" time. The out of competition testing is probaly as important as any in competition test. This is where you can get the most benefit from doping, increasing your training load while working on easier recovery if you cheat.

As a follow up on this, due to budget cuts from financial losses, UCI only performed an average of 3 OOC per cyclist per year in their OOC list in 2010 and 2011; unless they're lucky, especially with microdosing, that's not nearly enough to be effective. One hopes the recently announced test that can detect microdosing even should help fix that. Plus it's a dipstick style test which means faster turnaround and cheaper to employ
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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If this really is all about "cleaning" up the sport so our children can feel good about racing, it's a no brainer for USADA/WADA to work with Lance, *IF* all the info he supposedly has is 90% true.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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OneGoodLeg wrote:
. . . this whole limited confession circus on Oprah. . .

just thought i'd repeat for emphasis. lance still hasn't really 'confessed' in any meaningful sense. he told oprah, in a texas hotel room, that he used to dope. that's a pretty far cry from actually going under oath and on-record and getting square with UCI, le tour, WADA, USADA, IOC, etc.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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But here's the issue, why does he really need to get square with those authorities. Frankly, he's already square with them, because he's sanctioned. Lance doenst need to come clean to the authorities for me to somehow forgive him, or for me to think he's doing this to "clean" up the sport. Sorry, if that were to happen, I would need the UCI to also step up and answer to all the BS that they seem to have been covering up. Such as taking money from an rider, and not seeing any issue with that?

So if Lance wants to or doesnt want to come clean with the authorities, I dont think it really matters. We all know he's got shit on someone, now it's a matter of what the authorities are willing to give up in order to get that info. And as I said, if it's really about "cleaning" up the sport, and it takes Lance getting a pass (as much as I'd hate to see him get into tri's), he deserves a pass if he's willing to rat on the whole system, and we can all then move FORWARD.

Of course he's going to need to confess all the juicy details in order to get a lighter sentence, and he already failed to take that route. He assumed he could just scoff at the charges, and everything bounce off him. But it finally bite him in the ass, and now he's trying to realign so he's in charge. But here is the thing, if we really want a true confession, the authorities are going to 99.9% play ball with him and offer him something in return, or else we wont get all the juicy details that we really need in order to move forward. So, now it's a game of how much is the info Lance has worth it to USADA/WADA?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
If this really is all about "cleaning" up the sport so our children can feel good about racing, it's a no brainer for USADA/WADA to work with Lance, *IF* all the info he supposedly has is 90% true.

Work with doesn't mean give in to exactly what he wants, though. Lance has been claiming he'll work with them without any promise of further consideration on their part. In fact his lawyer said as much today in USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/...bonus-money/1890933/

However, when push has come to shove, he twice now (and it looks like the 3rd time will happen in 2 days time) will not do so. and tells only what he wants. If Lance actually wanted to give back to the sport, as he is claiming, he'd be taking a far different tack than he is. I'd be fine with USADA/WADA lessening his suspension, but what we're going to see is Lance's PR tour continue along a path several folks projected a while ago; Oprah (done), a small cycling interview to support oprah (done), an expose with Bill Strickland or similar in Bicycling (i hear this is in the works). He wants to wait to be the big star of a truth and reconciliation process, to be "cycling jesus" the way he was "cancer jesus". As long as UCI has to fear for it's presidents past and present, it's not looking likely to happen, because UCI can't do it without WADA, and the 2 aren't friendly right now.
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Re: Lance claims unfair treatment [OneGoodLeg] [ In reply to ]
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But Tygart was on 60 minutes first. I'd prefer not seeing either in the media right now.
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