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Re: Brett Sutton Article [adal] [ In reply to ]
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adal wrote:
Hypocrites.

Just research, how many women (including minors) the American army raped all over the world and tried to cover it up afterwards (Vietnam, Bangkok, Okinawa). No American needs to take part in this absurd outcry about a "crime" that took place half a century ago in Australia.

Just research how old the third wife of Mohammed was. Just research, how the Catholic Church organized the covering up child rape for decades, all over the world and especially in America.

And you celebrate your army and respect those cults, because it is fashionable. But in an internet forum you do a pseudo morality show on someone who had sex with a legal minor some half century ago.

For sure, Sutton did something wrong at that time, got a penalty and served it. But if you don't welcome former offenders back into society, you need to kill them or imprison them forever in the first place. If Sutton should be banned from coaching, you take his way of making a living, right? So basically you should be consequent enough to demand a death penalty.

I met Mr. Sutton and I trust him, I don't trust a society that gives a gun to everyone but gets all nervous about the swimsuit edition of a magazine. If Sutton shot that girl, Americans would forgive him, maybe. It would be just murder or manslaughter and not ... huh ... sex.


Bravo. Some weird thought processes going on in this thread. Reminds me of a typical deep south/ST lunch mob as usual.

Incaceration and punishment seems to be the third passion in the US. Right after guns and religion.
Last edited by: avagoyamug: Jan 13, 13 4:50
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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TravisT wrote:


Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.


Indeed I am and I do Sherlock. And I would leave my daughter with Brett Sutton in a heart beat. He made a mistake and I know he would never do harm to her or any other girl again. I have 100% confidence in that.


I would not however want her under the influence or regular presence of someone like yourself.
Last edited by: avagoyamug: Jan 13, 13 5:53
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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"Incarceration seems to be the third passion in the US. Right after guns and religion."

Oh, get over yourself. I'm an atheist and have never so much as held a weapon, I just prefer keeping convicted child molesters out of positions of authority that may potentially bring them into contact with children.

Especially, when as per the admission of Jordan, someone defending Sutton, Sutton violated the terms of his suspension.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Mad Jee wrote:
"Incarceration seems to be the third passion in the US. Right after guns and religion."

Oh, get over yourself. I'm an atheist and have never so much as held a weapon, I just prefer keeping convicted child molesters out of positions of authority that may potentially bring them into contact with children.

Especially, when as per the admission of Jordan, someone defending Sutton, Sutton violated the terms of his suspension.


Got over myself?? I was talking about the mentaility in the US nothing to do with me. It's an awesome country for sure but the obsession with religion, guns and punishment are not what make it awesome, they are what is bringing the country down.
Last edited by: avagoyamug: Jan 13, 13 5:06
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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And I am saying your assumptions make you sound ignorant and foolish. I am none of the things you describe yet am still as much "anti-Sutton" as anyone on this thread.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [ In reply to ]
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Bok wrote:

Quote:

But this is why we don't put convicted child molesters in positions of power over children, even if they don't officially have direct supervision or contact. And even if Mr. Bok would not permit Sutton to cut a minor from the team with no valid reason, the 16 year old girl does not know that. Which is one reason that children are so vulnerable to manipulation and predation by those who have authority over them.


The only coach with “coaching authority” over our youth development and youth elite athletes, is the country coach. Brett Sutton does not need or desire any authority, as he simply would never want to make a decision over a development athletes as we are not about creating winners.

Quote:

Again, I'm not accusing Sutton of having done anything wrong with the minors in the TBB programs. But there are overwhelmingly clear reasons why he should have absolutely no power or authority over them.


Thank you for the little respect provided to Brett Sutton for having coached for more than 20 years after the dramatic mistakes he made and extensively discussed on this forum, without one repeat offence committed ever, while hundreds if not thousands of male and female athletes have been coached by Brett on a daily basis during that same period. ...


that healing can only take place when the victim is able to forgive, no matter how contradicting that might sound, the abuser, as otherwise the abuser will always retain a continued power over the victim.

The nightmares, pain and fear victims continue to experience in their lives, are totally understandable and must always be totally respected at all times, but as long as we empower the abuser with our anger, fear, pain and what ever other emotional state, then this abuser still influences the happiness and quality of our lives.


this message of yours is positively chilling.

i see a few things, here.

1) no, the reason that sutton shouldn't have authority over junior triathletes is not because of TBB's philosophy on athlete development. nor is it because he doesn't "need or desire authority." it's because he's a convicted paedophile.

the fact that TBB either ignores or does not appreciate this fact is mind-boggling.

2) taking the indignant tone ("thank you for showing so little respect for Brett Sutton. . .") here is more than just a bad choice, it's downright offensive. are you seriously trying to shame us into 'respecting' this man because he has an aptitude for making wealthy people into fast triathletes?

3) lastly, your apparent desire to tell Sutton's victim how to deal with her experiences is so wrong it's hard to know where to begin.

this all makes me wonder who the hell is driving the bus at TBB. how can you release such hamfisted statements on important matters? when you arrange a group of teenagers in their bathing suits for a team picture, how the hell can it not occur to someone to pull Sutton out of the picture? that should be a complete no-brainer.

this tone-deaf and, frankly, scary, approach has told me just about everything that i think i need to know about team TBB.

-mike

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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x2. I am completely dumbfounded at this man's justification of hiring a child molester. Because his wife was molested and wants to forgive someone? Oh Jesus holy Christ. Get the man away from those children. These rationalizations that it was a "mistake" and a "grave error" are hideous. It was a long series of conscious, deviant, depraved decisions on his part. How do you mistakenly fondle a child's private? Holy Jesus, wake up.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [dreaming~big] [ In reply to ]
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listen, i can actually perfectly understand the decision to hire Sutton. he's one of the best high-performance tri coaches in history. but when the world's biggest triathlon website asks some reasonable questions about whether the man is working again with juniors, the only acceptable answer is something like:

"absolutely not. because of his history, we have an iron-clad policy that he's not in any way affiliated with our junior program. in the interests of transparency all our athletes and/or their guardians are informed of his past through our legal counsel. hope this clarifies things and i'd be happy to address any other questions."

instead we've had a reply - from the management of a team that aspires to take triathlon professionalization to the next level - that's not just amateurish but downright offensive.

-mike

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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Your point about an predator getting access is exactly why I have an issue with the stance this situation is showing. Just reading how often sutton is purposely put in place to come in direct contact with minors due to his coaching, is a bit weird. Read about the 30 kids he got to directly meet in brazil because the developing team coach wanted his help in developing that program. But I guess it's ok's because he isn't the "coach" of said program, it's always under someone else's umbrella. This isn't just a "oh there are kids at a party because the world is full of children", that was a situation that he got to be in the direct access of children in a Tri related venue because he is a coach.


I'm not even saying he's acting in any predatory like tendencies. But he's convicted of harming an minor and for you to justify it seemingly because the world is full of children and we can't ban him from all contact is troubling. When he is in an situation where others are willingly putting him in contact with minors/scholarly juniors, that is something that can be stopped.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Mad Jee wrote:
And I am saying your assumptions make you sound ignorant and foolish. I am none of the things you describe yet am still as much "anti-Sutton" as anyone on this thread.

What are these assumptions that you speak of?

That guns, religion and a lynch-mob like mentality are more prominent in America than in other developed countries?

I would contend these are truisms not assumptions backed up by innumerable statistics.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [dreaming~big] [ In reply to ]
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dreaming~big wrote:
? Oh Jesus holy Christ. Get the man away from those children. These rationalizations that it was a "mistake" and a "grave error" are hideous. Holy Jesus, wake up.

See what I mean?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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That is pretty much exactly what I find troubling. It's as if we aren't arguing/discussing does he or doesn't he come into contact with juniors, we are arguing over what defines "coaching". So teamtbb is saying because he doesn't directly coach the junior team athletes, that all other contact is kinda ok'd? Just seems weird that their own website promotes the great work sutton does with juniors and then will tell us that sutton isn't directly coaching the juniors. Ok, I actually believe he isn't holding a stop watch and out on bike rides with them. But why is he to given access to them in arenas that he shouldn't be (team photos, meeting new juniors that don't have other ways of access into the sport). It just kinda seems like the line of allowance seems to move around. Again, I'm not even trying to say he's trying to in any way take advantage of any situation he puts himself into. I'm just questioning why he's allowed to be in the situations that are described in by team tbb.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
That is pretty much exactly what I find troubling. It's as if we aren't arguing/discussing does he or doesn't he come into contact with juniors, we are arguing over what defines "coaching". So teamtbb is saying because he doesn't directly coach the junior team athletes, that all other contact is kinda ok'd? Just seems weird that their own website promotes the great work sutton does with juniors and then will tell us that sutton isn't directly coaching the juniors. Ok, I actually believe he isn't holding a stop watch and out on bike rides with them. But why is he to given access to them in arenas that he shouldn't be (team photos, meeting new juniors that don't have other ways of access into the sport). It just kinda seems like the line of allowance seems to move around. Again, I'm not even trying to say he's trying to in any way take advantage of any situation he puts himself into. I'm just questioning why he's allowed to be in the situations that are described in by team tbb.

Maybe because they know as I do that there is no risk.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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No offense but seeing how you have done nothing to identify yourself in the forum, whether you think he is a risk or not a risk, does it really mean much?

Now if you want to identify yourself and how you are relevant to this particular issue, then your view would atleast hold some validity. Until then not so much.

ETA: and my view means very little, but if we can have an discussion on the topic then if you are willing to say he isn't a risk without identifying how you can verify that, then it's really an non point.

------------------
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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jan 13, 13 6:11
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
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Sutton threads. They just go on and on and on........

If you don't agree with him coaching in triathlon ignore him, then he might not get the media he currently gets. Simple.

Ill sit back now and watch this thread go on, and on, and on while nothing changes.................

He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
Sutton threads. They just go on and on and on........

If you don't agree with him coaching in triathlon ignore him, then he might not get the media he currently gets. Simple.

Ill sit back now and watch this thread go on, and on, and on while nothing changes.................[/quote]

------

x2

Just like many other "hot topics" here..

----
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [adal] [ In reply to ]
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adal wrote:
Hypocrites.

Just research, how many women (including minors) the American army raped all over the world and tried to cover it up afterwards (Vietnam, Bangkok, Okinawa). No American needs to take part in this absurd outcry about a "crime" that took place half a century ago in Australia.

Just research how old the third wife of Mohammed was. Just research, how the Catholic Church organized the covering up child rape for decades, all over the world and especially in America.

And you celebrate your army and respect those cults, because it is fashionable. But in an internet forum you do a pseudo morality show on someone who had sex with a legal minor some half century ago.

For sure, Sutton did something wrong at that time, got a penalty and served it. But if you don't welcome former offenders back into society, you need to kill them or imprison them forever in the first place. If Sutton should be banned from coaching, you take his way of making a living, right? So basically you should be consequent enough to demand a death penalty.

I met Mr. Sutton and I trust him, I don't trust a society that gives a gun to everyone but gets all nervous about the swimsuit edition of a magazine. If Sutton shot that girl, Americans would forgive him, maybe. It would be just murder or manslaughter and not ... huh ... sex.

There is so much bad logic in this post......what makes you think that those who are criticizing Sutton support or accept the crimes committed by our military? Can you please show posts where statements such as that have been made?

The case against Sutton coaching has been made by others, so I won't go through that again. For myself, other than minors, I don't care if Sutton coaches or not. But that doesn't mean that people have to use him as a coach. And if they do, it also doesn't mean that I can't hold an opinion on those people. There are many ways for Sutton to earn a living. he is entitled to the opportunity to make a living. he is NOT entitled to be a triathlon coach. "The world needs ditch diggers, too."

I also don't understand how anyone can say Sutton is not in a position of power and influence over minors. See the previous posted photo.....the picture exalts Sutton and there are minors in the picture. Do I really need to paint the picture of how even that instance can be turned into a situation where his influence, even if it is not direct, can be used against those minors?

B all accounts, Sutton has turned his life around and has never committed a similar act again. He should be applauded for that and I wish him nothing but the best in that regard. But that doesn't mean he should be anywhere near minors in any sort of a professional capacity....and that includes photo ops.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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avagoyamug wrote:

TravisT wrote:


Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.


Indeed I am and I do Sherlock. And I would leave my daughter with Brett Sutton in a heart beat. He made a mistake and I know he would never do harm to her or any other girl again. I have 100% confidence in that.


I would not however want her under the influence or regular presence of someone like yourself.


I feel bad for your daughter that you would feel comfortable leaving her with some who is a convicted child molester and who's victim said the kind of things about him that she did. Well on your way to father of the year award there. Not really surprising given your general attitude towards right and wrong when you're the kind of guy who feels no qualms abusing a race official and cutting a penalty in a race when you can get away with it and boasting after. I'm am as anti-religious and gun as they come but some things are simply right or wrong. Your concept of which is obviously skewed.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [ In reply to ]
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Bok wrote:

Quote:

But this is why we don't put convicted child molesters in positions of power over children, even if they don't officially have direct supervision or contact. And even if Mr. Bok would not permit Sutton to cut a minor from the team with no valid reason, the 16 year old girl does not know that. Which is one reason that children are so vulnerable to manipulation and predation by those who have authority over them.



The only coach with “coaching authority” over our youth development and youth elite athletes, is the country coach. Brett Sutton does not need or desire any authority, as he simply would never want to make a decision over a development athletes as we are not about creating winners. His desire is to retire after leaving a group of young champion coaches, and he simply sees himself as their mentor. We are about providing hope and opportunity to struggling pro’s since the start of our team in 2007 already and if a development athlete learns something about swimming and respecting his fellow athletes and refraining from violence at all times and never ever get involved in drugs, our mission is successful!

Why would we want to “fire” someone from our squad, if we know they simply do their best?

In The Philippines one 17 year old girl left our team in 2012, as she wanted to join the National Swim squad. No problem for us, we accepted her decision and all was handled on country level.


Quote:

Again, I'm not accusing Sutton of having done anything wrong with the minors in the TBB programs. But there are overwhelmingly clear reasons why he should have absolutely no power or authority over them.



Thank you for the little respect provided to Brett Sutton for having coached for more than 20 years after the dramatic mistakes he made and extensively discussed on this forum, without one repeat offence committed ever, while hundreds if not thousands of male and female athletes have been coached by Brett on a daily basis during that same period. Some people do show great remorse for mistakes made and learn from the pain this has caused both their victim and themselves in the process and trust me if I tell you, Brett has taken the burden for it upon himself for the rest of his live.

Key point on a belief I have and will share to those who question why I work with Brett Sutton.

Any emotional or physical challenge we experience in our lives can be resolved if we can truly reach a place in our heart where we can forgive those that committed sins to us our loved onces, or people we know and in the process the world will become a better place.

Many years before I met my wife, she was a victim of many years of sexual, physical and emotional abuse. She healed herself and currently operates a practice helping other such victims. She has experienced herself and with her clients also great success, that healing can only take place when the victim is able to forgive, no matter how contradicting that might sound, the abuser, as otherwise the abuser will always retain a continued power over the victim.

The nightmares, pain and fear victims continue to experience in their lives, are totally understandable and must always be totally respected at all times, but as long as we empower the abuser with our anger, fear, pain and what ever other emotional state, then this abuser still influences the happiness and quality of our lives.

This all has very little to do with triathlon, but with a profound insight and proven facts by many people who were able to let go of the past, who could forgive those that hurt them in their life, as that lead to an increased level of happiness and the ability to "move on with life" as otherwise the victim could face even bigger challenges in the future for holding on to all that pain.

Letting go of the pain, letting go of the anger and finding “peace” in what has happened and was so very wrong, can be one of the biggest revelations and ways to healing for any one who has gone through such extreme painful experience.

My wife has met Brett Sutton prior to me proceeding to work with him after a 3 months in-depth study of his case and past. As a victim for more 6 six years herself, she strongly recommended me to work with Brett as she took one hour of talks as a women and ex-victim herself to figure out this man has a great heart and despite his terrible offence, he too deserves a life and for some people to provide forgiveness for him to move on with his life.

I sincerely hope that any victim on this forum, will accept I truly regret what happened to you and I totally respect and honor you for your courage to continue your life and speak out against those that have hurt you or similar offenders. No words can describe the pain for those who have experienced this, I know first hand.

But please accept, I have seen the power of forgiveness in the person I love most, who was abused for 6 years under the most extreme circumstances. Once she was able to forgive all involved in her ordeal, she finally was able to move on with her life as she verbally, emotionally and spiritually forgave her abusers and attackers, and as a result she is one of the happiest person's I know. After years of further studies and working with experts all over the world, she now successfully helps other victims to experience the same happiness and release of pain.

I agree with all on this forum, that people who violated such level of trust with a minor in a coaching position, should not be coaching minors, so there is no disagreement there at all.

Quote:

There are reasons why TBB has operated in Thailand and the Philippines and Brazil and now Mexico. I suspect it's because authorities in Australia, Britain, Canada and the U.S. would never let Sutton near minors. I also suspect that it's because the other countries may not consider 16 year-olds to be minors. That may explain the Switzerland choice, also.



Again, with full respect for your comment, but the assumption you are making is truly 100% incorrect. My business was based in Asia at the start, and hence our training camps were therefore organized in Asia. I live in Thailand with my wife, who is Dutch also.

We have launched teamTBB country teams in the USA, UK, Japan and Germany and the selection of our country team’s is made based on having a country title sponsor / partner and the local support to start our social programs.

Not once EVER, have I made a decision to stay away from country or open in a specific country based on the history of Brett Sutton!

Quote:

From further reading of the TBB website, and Sutton's own blog, it appears he is starting to remove himself from coaching professionals in 2013. It sounds like it's so he can focus his efforts on TBB's youth development programs in Asia and South America.



On doctor’s advise Brett is removing himself from not only his coaching work at teamTBB, but also from extensive travel and stressful environments. This means Brett will be increasingly operating as an advisor only in the background and do seminars and talks in our regional training hubs. At the same time, given his health situation, he wishes to spend more time with his wife, their two little daughters and three kids from his first marriage. I guess for him to therefore share his views about sports and kids on our website, based entirely on what he experiences with his own two daughters, seem fine to me.


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and only say that you have terrible judgment. Whatever forgiveness your wife gave Sutton is an acceptable reason for having him as a family friend. It doesn't even come close to being a reason to utilize the service of a convicted child molester in an organization whose stated purpose involves working with kids and minors. It is a decision so mind-blowingly bad it hard to accept you are blind to it only because of bad judgment. You state you met Sutton after an intense study of him and his past. So did he come to you to offer his services or did you reach out to him. Not much good can be said about either scenario. Your refusal to address his obvious interactions with minors that have been raised on this thread is also troubling.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
That is pretty much exactly what I find troubling. It's as if we aren't arguing/discussing does he or doesn't he come into contact with juniors, we are arguing over what defines "coaching". So teamtbb is saying because he doesn't directly coach the junior team athletes, that all other contact is kinda ok'd? Just seems weird that their own website promotes the great work sutton does with juniors and then will tell us that sutton isn't directly coaching the juniors. Ok, I actually believe he isn't holding a stop watch and out on bike rides with them. But why is he to given access to them in arenas that he shouldn't be (team photos, meeting new juniors that don't have other ways of access into the sport). It just kinda seems like the line of allowance seems to move around. Again, I'm not even trying to say he's trying to in any way take advantage of any situation he puts himself into. I'm just questioning why he's allowed to be in the situations that are described in by team tbb.

- He's at some race with one of his pros and a young triathlete comes up to him (isn't that that Sutton, the coach who helped make Chrissie what she is?) what's he gonna do, run away? No, he smiles, takes a picture, is kind and then returns his focus back to his athlete. Unless he lives in a cave in the middle of nowhere there's no way to be sure he would never come across an attractive young woman in his life, and assuming no recidivist behavior has been shown, I guess I dont have a problem with that.

- The staged photos with juniors, that's the other side of the coin. Its just stupid that they're doing that. It's one thing that he lives his normal life, but it's another to say "Hey sugar addict, here is our new selection of candy. Now you're not allowed to have any but you can look all you want". That's just a bad idea, even if he's shown no recidivist behavior.

And when we talk about what defines coaching, his prior success puts him in a position of authority automatically over any junior interested or intrigued by that. No official relationship needs to exist between a child molester and molestee, except that of predator and victim.

I don't know Sutton, and i believe in rehabilitation. I have some real issue with the things he said back when he got caught, but if there really hasn't been an inappropriate action in 20+ years, maybe he isn't a threat. Sort of like all those nuclear missiles in Russia that no one is using.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [adal] [ In reply to ]
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Look at a map buddy. Alberta is not in the US and I am not an American. Part of Suttons punishment was a lifetime coaching ban which he has circumvented by leaving Australian jurisdiction. By continuing to coach the message he sends is I dont give a fuck what the judge says, I'll just do my thing where nobody can do anything about it. Sutton and Cecil Russell are very similar in this way.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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Except he replied to my post and I'm not American. In fact my home province is part of my screen name. Shane Hooks gets it right.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../opinion/sutton.html

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe because they know as I do that there is no risk.

You can't possible know that. Sutton can't possibly know that. Do you think if you asked Sutton when he started coaching mnors if he would ever rape one he would have answered, "Of Course"? I strongly suspect he would have answered absolutely no, and that would have been his honest assessment of himself.

Styrrell
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
I'm not even saying he's acting in any predatory like tendencies. But he's convicted of harming an minor and for you to justify it seemingly because the world is full of children and we can't ban him from all contact is troubling. When he is in an situation where others are willingly putting him in contact with minors/scholarly juniors, that is something that can be stopped.

I don't know why it's troubling, it is just a fact that unless you lock him up in cell he will come into contact with minors, that's not justifying anything he did and I've been vocal in here saying I fully agree that he shouldn't be coaching minors in any capacity but for me I have no issue with him coaching adults. I was also pointing no matter what job he does (short of him being locked in a cell as mentioned above) then there will inevitably be occassions he will come into contact with minors. I'm sorry but much as you would like it that is simply unavoidable in every day life irrespective of job. So you tell me what job you think he should do and how that job would prevent any interactions you deem unsuitable?

It troubles me some of the absolutist (and I'm not necessarily saying you) draconian views on this thread, many of these people would do well living in Saudi Arabi as that's also a pretty screwed up culture with absolutist tendancies
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [ In reply to ]
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So you have no issue with him taking 10 trips to brazil with the intent of working/producing a junior triathlon program? Again, I'm in no way saying what he can or can't do as a coach. But if you can't see that I think having him in situations that people are knowingly having him come in contact with juniors in a triathlon setting and excusing it because he is not "directly" coaching them is questionable, then I don't know what to tell you.

Again, I'm calling out his work and his continued questionable work with juniors that even teamTBB is ok'ing because he has no "direct" coaching. I don't think it's a good idea for him to work or be involved in any capacity with juniors. If that's totalitarian mindset, maybe that needs to be reexamined.

But I'm shocked people are saying its cool he is still involved with junior development within the sport because he isn't directly coaching youth.

Eta: I'm arguing the intent of allowing access to sutton in any junior capacity is wrong and I'd hope he'd not be allowed to interact with them in any capacity that relates to triathlon. He clearly is or has been still working with juniors in some capacity, I'm completly against that.

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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jan 13, 13 9:14
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