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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan, I agree that a federation banning all sorts of "grey area" coaching (consulting, email, etc.) is difficult. But Brett Sutton's coaching is as clear cut as it gets. He advertises it on a web page. He publicly brags about his coaching skills. And Slowtwitch writes fawning articles about his team every few years (2008 & 2011).

It would really be quite simple to stop him from coaching. A few dozen individuals--tier 1 and tier 2 pro triathletes--could all publicly state that they won't work with him because he has violated a basic tenet of the sport, and that they refuse to enable his continued access to minors. Peer pressure would do the rest. If it drives him to "underground" coaching by email...so what? He doesn't have access to kids this way.

Look, the Penn State scandal opened a lot of eyes. People in charge "thought" Sandusky was properly supervised around kids--but didn't really want to ask too many questions because they didn't want to rock the boat, and because he and Paterno were "too important to the sport."

I make no accusations about Sutton's current behavior. Regardless, there is no way in hell that he should be working around minors. And there is no way in hell that any self-respecting triathlete should be supporting and enabling that by hiring him as a coach.

Penn State opened a lot of eyes, and caused a lot of us to lose tolerance for the "look the other way" attitude that has pervaded sports for decades. And many of us are saying, "ENOUGH!"

This is a basic moral issue, and the management of Slowtwitch needs to decide what's more important--its backing of an influential triathlon coach, or taking a stand against old-school ways where convicted child molesters get to continue working around children while everyone pretends all is well.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Technically, a ban by the ITU should be honored by WTC, so you shouldn't need both.

I wasn't aware of the jurisdictional overlap there.

But the ITU already enacted such a ban - for three years. So in that sense, the governing body handed down that sentence, and he served his time. However, it's not clear that he was actually prevented from coaching in any meaningful way. He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period

So despite your comments earlier in the thread about your interactions with him, do those seem like the behaviors of someone who was actually contrite? Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying it sounds like he was violating the spirit, if not the letter, of his ban?


As far as your employer, according to LinkedIn, you work for the bureau of labor statistics as an economist. I get where more of your arguments are coming from - punish the demand and the supply disappears, for instance - but I am truly shocked that, as an economist in today's society, you genuinely believe that a bureaucracy can be ever as functional as you want the ITU to be in this case.

We can move the gun control debate to the LR but I will address this. Yes, I am an economist with the BLS, and despite what Jack Welch says, I think we do a pretty good job at the task we are assigned to do. I am aware of the limitations of bureaucracies, but this again is an instance where we are on different wavelengths. "As functional as I want the ITU to be"? You mean define the role of coach? Besides "athlete" I'd assume that coach is the second most numerous profession in the sport, I don't think asking the international governing body to define that position is that big of an ask.

On to a more interesting question, how would you propose eliminate the demand for drugs? I certainly agree that it's been futile to focus on the supply side, but I'm curious what you answer to working on the demand side might be...

Oh boy, approaching LR territory here, but briefly I'll say I guess it depends on what drugs we are talking about. Marijuana? I think the current trend of legalization is a positive development that I certainly support. The cost/benefit to society of legalizing marijuana is a net positive in my opinion as opposed to continuing with current expenditures on enforcement and prosecution as that seems to have been a poor use of societal resources.

As for other drugs, I think demand from drugs and it's role in the drug trade is sort of analogous the mental health in the gun violence debate. For drugs, it certainly starts with education as to the dangers, but beyond that, eliminating that climate that makes someone turn to drugs in the first place. There are many things including mental health, economic conditions and opportunities, socio-economic status, etc., that all contribute there. If it was easy it would have been figure out already...



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan, I agree that a federation banning all sorts of "grey area" coaching (consulting, email, etc.) is difficult. But Brett Sutton's coaching is as clear cut as it gets. He advertises it on a web page. He publicly brags about his coaching skills. And Slowtwitch writes fawning articles about his team every few years (2008 & 2011).

It would really be quite simple to stop him from coaching. A few dozen individuals--tier 1 and tier 2 pro triathletes--could all publicly state that they won't work with him because he has violated a basic tenet of the sport, and that they refuse to enable his continued access to minors. Peer pressure would do the rest.



x2

Jordan put it on me to define coaching. Most simply, we can use the old definition of pornography, "I know it when I see it."

Can I define coaching? I could try and people could pick it apart. Triathlon is not my profession though so I don't have a vested interest in entering that debate. That said, we certainly know what "coaching" is when it's as clear cut as it is in Sutton's case. Drive him underground and sure, some may still consult with him. But I think the "grey area" that Jordan points out is pretty small, and the black and white aspect would cover the vast majority. If the ITU simply said "Brett Sutton is banned from coaching" and a few athletes stepped up to support the ban as you said, I think the need for a further definition beyond that would be unnecessary.

I know sexual harassment is banned in my workplace. I haven't searched out a definition to find out what I can get away with, I just don't engage in any behavior that may be remotely consider sexually harassing. There is probably a definition out there, but I don't need it to know what I should and shouldn't be doing.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Barlow] [ In reply to ]
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Barlow wrote:
I have read some of Sutton's interviews and find him intriguing enough to follow on twitter. However, in light of his past, when I read the below tweet from him which was posted 2 hrs ago, it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

"when away from my girls, down and sinking deeper,always good2 c see keen wide eyed innocence, the first session4 cuzumel elite youth program"

How much more proof is the head in the sand group going to need that he is still working with kids? I guess people like Jordan can just say they don't agree with it and keep supporting him while thinking that somehow maintains their integrity.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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i m with you on this, if there is proof.... if he actually is working with kids, i m against it.

When i have work with him, he WAS NOT AT ALL. (2009) and told me he would not.

i m sure a few of the pro in cozumel could pitch in on what s happening out there. i was told TBB was having a rookies camp to get new memeber on the team. but the people i know, are all adult.... for exemple, andrew yoder is there right now on a try-out.

.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry for the tangent, but some of this is starting to become a little clearer to me....

I had wondered for a while what the Alaska sponsorship was all about. Was it the state tourism board, Alaska Brewing Company, etc.

The picture posted on the previous page finally got me googling a bit....Alaska Milk Company, the largest dairy producer in the Phillipines.

Side note to the tangent - it drives me crazy when sponsors just put logos on jerseys / shorts with no further clarification. It is just wasted PR opportunities, or worse PR for something completely unrelated to the actual sponsor. This is basic marketing and companies fail the test all the time.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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If he is still working with kids, and I doubt he just suddenly started, then anybody with a brain should be against it. I don't doubt what you said about what happened wihen you worked with him but he has tried and been barred from working with minors before. If he truely cared about what he had done he would never attempt to be anywhere near another situation that could place him in contact with young athletes. He obviously doesn't care though. It reflects worse and worse on those who continue trying to intellectually argue away what he is and has done.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [ In reply to ]
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If he truely cared about what he had done he would never attempt to be anywhere near another situation that could place him in contact with young athletes. He obviously doesn't care though. It reflects worse and worse on those who continue trying to intellectually argue away what he is and has done.

Between this information, and Jordan stating above that he was escorted away from several races during his ban what more information are people looking for that he doesn't care or respect his punishment and the seriousness of what he did, no matter what he might say.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Someone who is truly contrite does not engage in the behavior he did and continues to. Anything he says to the contrary to make people think otherwise is self serving bullshit to get people to support him. Actions speak.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period, but the ITU chose not to use their means of enforcement as a punishment of the athletes."

This is yet another disturbing fact about Sutton.

I think this demonstrates another flaw in his character. Which reinforces my ideas about the man.

He was just convicted of molesting a child and given a sentence by his governing body yet, per your post, REPEATEDLY and willfully violated those sanctions. That doesn't sound much to me like a man who was remorseful and understanding of why he was sanctioned. That sounds like a man who felt his punishment was unjustified. "Screw them, I didn't do anything wrong, I'm going to the race to watch my athletes"

And that leads me to wonder about the sincerity of his "speaking out and warning other coaches" about sexual conduct with teen athletes. I wonder if his warning is coming from a "If you get caught it's a big hassle" mindset rather than a "It is morally reprehensible" mindset.

And the fact that he continues to have contact with youth athletes demonstrates a complete lack of judgement/sensitivity by him and the TBB management. That sort of institutional disregard for the seriousness of his past transgressions is why Penn State administrators are being charged as well as Sandusky.

Sample discussion from TBB management:

"Hey, didn't Brett molest a 14 y.o. girl? Maybe we shouldn't let him have contact with our youth athletes.".

"Naw, he said he was sorry. And he's a really good coach. We'll just keep and eye on him. Where is he at these days?"

"Dunno, somewhere doing a girls youth camp I think. Wanna go get some coffee?"

"Sure"

And the fact that he himself doesn't recuse himself from having contact with youth athletes (which is at least demonstrated by the photo and his tweet) is another strike against his character. I would suppose that a lot of us would know that people would be upset if we (if we had been convicted of child molestation) continued to have contact with children. Sample self talk: "Yeah, I really enjoy coaching kids but I totally get that what I did was really bad and that people will be upset if I continue coaching them. Bummer but I'll just have to stick to adults."

Sutton either doesn't feel that what he did precludes him from working with children (again, to me, demonstrating a lack remorse) or, one could argue, he personally feels that he could never, ever under any circumstance do anything like that again and thus feels comfortable continuing to work with youth athletes.

Either could be the case but in the vernacular of the political pundit world "The optics are very, very bad".

And, unfortunately, this is making me have second thoughts about my tolerance for TBB as an organization and TBB athletes in general. If it is true (not 100% verified but it looks like there is some smoke in the air) that Sutton is again coaching youth athletes then TBB athletes should put pressure on the management to stop this. If not then I would have difficulty understanding their continued work with him. That's just me.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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surprisingly he did not openly discuss any dodgy things he might be doing with you. Once your wired like that you always are, they don't change. These people are predators.

He got caught left Australia, the leopard does not change his spots, just moves to a different country.

The fact that he's an appalling human does not diminish his ability as a coach, and if you don't mind hanging out with a child molester then he's probably good for you.

Test for all those triathletes forgiving him and understanding, do they forgive and understand all the other scumbags or just Brett because they want the advantage from being coached by him
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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It's "out of sight, out of mind" mentality from what I'm reading. Reading what now several different pro's have said, they got their time with him, believed he was not working with kids and as long as their time with him didn't include minors, all was good, with the acknowledgment that he messed up early in life.

Now what I find intersting is that with most issues, the more you stay in that environment, the harder it is to actually stay away from what you are suppose to stay away from. But I guess when you can nitpick what "coaching" is, well then there is always seemingly an out. I'm shocked that a coach in his position is still allowed juniors in any triathlon related event (whether coaching, sponsorship, team function). That just kinda seems like its a little too close for comfort, and I'm not suggesting anything wrong will/would happen. Just that in this circumstances, it seems like better judgment could occur. But again, I guess you have to define what "coaching" or else that will continue to be an out.

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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jan 12, 13 13:39
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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Brett seemed/seems to have serious issues with Les McDonald, and I am not clear what the exact wording and stipulations of the ITU sanctions were. (EDIT: added the following ->It's also not entirely clear how much was Les McDonald's personal opposition to Brett and how much was an official ITU position.<-) However, yes, I agree that he certainly violated the spirit of the ban, and - in some cases per appearing at ITU events and being escorted away - even the letter of it. However, that was a decade ago (EDIT for clarity - Brett committed this trangsression 25 years ago, but it only came out ~15yrs ago, which helps if someone is trying to do the math on how he could be 52 now, 27 when it happened.), and I was willing to accept that he may have changed, especially in light of what I heard from athletes who worked directly with him.

What really concerns me is that it definitely appears that he is in fact coaching minors, which I really cannot agree with or support. I have tried to get some direct confirmation, as I do not want to assume the worst. That said, it's hard not to. However, there are some circumstances that I would not absolutely decry. E.g., Brett is the head coach of TBB. TBB has a youth program that Brett thinks is a positive thing. As long as his role in the program is administrative - and not direct involvement with any of the kids - I can sort of see that being okay (like our LAPD cop getting a desk job with the NYPD). In other words, I think, for example, that he should be allowed to write a book, "swim technique for juniors;" I definitely do not think that he should be allowed to show that swim technique to juniors firsthand.

But, as I said, this is definitely the first I've heard of it. And if it's clear that he is working with minors, I do not support that, and will speak with Dan and Herbert to make sure that Slowtwitch doesn't support that, and I will cease to engage with Brett. I certainly won't bury my head in the sand, but I'd like to get some first hand confirmation - not just a 140 character comment and a single news article. I hope that is understandable.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Last edited by: Rappstar: Jan 12, 13 16:28
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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E.g., Brett is the head coach of TBB. TBB has a youth program that Brett thinks is a positive thing. As long as his role in the program is administrative - and not direct involvement with any of the kids - I can sort of see that being okay (like our LAPD cop getting a desk job with the NYPD).

___________

I cant if it puts him in contact with juniors at any point in the coaching/team aspects, and that's already been shown to happen.

ETA: When you get too close to the fire, you are very likely to get burned. From the accounts on here, it already seems to show that Sutton has been put in some situations that have him directly in contact with juniors. Now if you want clarify exactly what he can or cant do, then fair enough, but I just find it very hard to put an coach in an situation where the boundary seems to be ever moving around. X is ok if it deals with juniors by Y isnt because it's too close of contact. That just seems to basically want to self cloudy the waters, more than anything. If someone wants to strike out on their own than fair enough, but to be part of a structured junior program, where it's pretty evident he's already in some capacity interacting with juniors, well seems unfortunate.

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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jan 12, 13 15:26
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I've never been a big fan of "appearances". Meaning I care how things are not what they appear to be. But in the case of something like rape of a minor I think appearances also matter. Brett may well be scrupulous in making sure he isn't in contact with minors without adult supervision or arents around, but stuff like the picture of him surrounded by kids, and even him endorsing a kids triathlon team is going to cause concern and questions.

If he wants to support youth triathlon he can donate money to an existing team, there doesn't need to be a Kids Team TBB.

Styrrell
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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That is very understandable, I just hope you'll report back with what you hear, whether you like what you hear or not. I trust that you will and you committment to making sure ST does the same is admirable.

Thanks, apologies again for my sloppy wording earlier.



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Re: Brett Sutton Article [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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To that end, whether he is officially coaching those kids or not, as is plainly obvious, he is at a minimum doing photo ops with minors. He is also responsible for the funding of that Jr. Team.

That, by itself, puts him in a position if influence and power over those kids.

Flat out wrong. Whether he is directly coaching those minors or not is not the issue. Being in a position if power over them is.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [ In reply to ]
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It is my understanding that Alex Bok, owner of TBB, is going to reply directly to this thread, so I will hopefully not have to serve as a go-between. I will not reply to this thread again until Alex has had a chance to reply or unless I hear that Alex can't/won't.

I don't expect that Alex's answer will please everyone, regardless of what it is; one thing about which there is definitely no grey is that Brett is like religion and politics (or both) to people. But I would ask that folks at least be respectful. There's been a lot of "guilt by association" in this thread, but hopefully we can at least give Alex a chance to speak without going ad hominem on him simply because he chooses to give Brett a second chance that some (many) on here think he shouldn't have.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'll be honest and say I am not optimistic we are going to get the whole story given that Bok has a financial stake in Sutton and Sutton's reputation...we'll see though. You have to recognize the conflict of interest there.

But as you said, let's at least give him a chance.



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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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This thread makes it sound like their is no grey area, but I think it exists. I really have no issue with adults, who know his history seeking his help. I don't think he should have any coaching or advising, in person, with minors. Primarily for the minors sake but also for his.

Styrrell
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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I think the grey area has allowed him contact with minors and in more than just an "adminstrative" role. But that's just my take on the info that has been provided in this thread from pages 7 and 8. So I guess it goes back to Rapp's discussion about having to define what "coaching" is, and what is or isnt allowed. ETA: Which is why as the other poster said, I'll be curious to the actually explaination they have about Sutton's involvement with their team and juniors, and how they define that involvement.

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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jan 12, 13 18:23
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Guilt by association is a good phrase. Polarizing was also used, another good choice. I got a few PMs saying that my words were good. I read a post that misquoted me as saying I don't know where I stand, where I clearly stated the opposite. The only wishy-washy part of my posts related to Brett are the should I post or not because I know what the responses will be.

If you support Lance, you support doping. If you hate Lance, you love cancer. That's usually how it ends up.

Is working with Brett the same as picking Conte or Ferari? I think that Andreau or Vaughters would be a better option. That was my first thought when that reply came up.

Probably some of the best words on this thread, in my opinion, were yours Jordan:

"Is Brett manipulative, authoritarian, and otherwise precisely the kind of the person who would prey on a female minor over whom he had authority. Yes, he is. And he did precisely that. But I also think he's a father and a mentor who cares a lot about people. I expect that whatever lead him to make that terrible, terrible decision is still very much a part of his psyche. But I also don't think it's his whole person.

The world is most comfortable to our brains when it's black and white. But I don't actually think the world is very black and white. Or, more specifically, I don't think that people are very black and white. Actions? Sure. Brett committed - no shades of grey - an atrocity. But does that make him - as a person - an atrocity? I don't want to take that view of the world. If people think less of me because of that, I'm okay with that."

Regarding some of the last couple of pages. Does some of what Brett might write or blog apply to coaching children, since that is the reason this whole thread started? Yes. Should he be allowed near them? No. And having that association with TeamTBB is one that was not there while we were on the team, and it is to me, a questionable angle. But, we have no association whatsoever with the team anymore, so those are not developments that I can speak to...like Jonnyo mentioned.

Would I refer a fellow professional to the team for what it offers? No, but that has everything to do with my results while racing on the team and managerial aspects of the team. The treatment that I received from Brett, that I saw from Brett directed towards his athletes was respectful. And, he has a passion for the sport to see it grow and thrive and to see the professionals in the sport be treated like professionals. That is why I stated that he was a steward of the sport. This is my last post on this subject, maybe on this board. I, like you, see in shades of grey or rose at times. That is a difficult position to hold. It is like sitting the fence with a post up your @$$.

Edited because the text came out funny.




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Last edited by: -BrandonMarshTX: Jan 12, 13 18:44
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
This is my last post on this subject, maybe on this board.

Don't be so melodramatic.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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I wanted to rephrase what I meant by I think the "gray" area is kinda questionable when it talks about he's only "coaching" adults. Go read up on the Damha triathlon club that Sutton became apart of simply because he was coaching AG'ers on a pool deck in Canada and another coach saw him and wanted his help with starting an triathlon program in Brazil (of which ITU star Reinaldo Colucci was discovered as a youth).

There is an excellent summary of what the team was doing for this group of kids in Brazil, and how many kids they've helped.

http://www.teamtbb.com/...task=view&id=270

It's like a 4 or 5 part series with different people talking about the Cali team that was created. Looks to be a fantastic program and talks about the roles each played in forming the team. Again this is all info from their own website, so best to take a look at it and read up on it and form your own decision.

Now that isnt to say he should or shouldnt be coaching adults, just that I think when you say that he should only be designated as an "adult" only coach, you can see what type of scenarios that still puts him in.

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Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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If I find out he's planning to come to Canada I'm calling CBSA.

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