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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [ In reply to ]
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Yknot wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534

What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.

The difference is that every athlete who signs up with Sutton knows about his past. He admitted to his crime, and it was a heinous crime; I do not deny, and neither does Brett. And he served the sentence he was given. That is - to me anyway - a significant difference. I respect that you may not see that as being a difference or being significant.

To Bjorn's point, I won't attempt to speak for other athletes in terms of what they will/won't overlook in Brett's past because of what they think he might offer them. It's a more cynical view of our peers than I'm willing to take to say that they only overlook it because of what might be in it for them. Do I accept that might be the reality? Sure. But I also accept that it might now be, and I have enough faith in the character of the athletes that I have known on TBB to assume it's the latter.

I also think it's interesting that people perceive him as badmouthing Chrissie. I don't think he ever badmouths her. I think he badmouths the people around her. In that sense, I actually think he gives Chrissie a bit of a free pass, since she chose who she wanted to surround herself with. But I think it's all out of a sense of loss. What "could have been" with Chrissie. I think we all have a bit of that sense of loss. If there is a person who doesn't think we all lost something special when Chrissie retired, I think that person is crazy.

Lastly, I also think Sutton's coaching accomplishments - the titles - are actually less profound than his care for the sport and for his athletes. I think he cares about being a steward of the sport. I think he violated that stewardship in a major way when he engaged in sexual relations with a minor, and a minor who was under his tutelage. And, more importantly, I think he believes that he violated that stewardship. And I think he's doing what he can to make up for that. In short, I think he cares about leaving the world and the sport in a better place, and I think that in large part he's motivated by the fact that he's got a lot to do to even get back to zero - if he can ever get there - in a lot of people's eyes.

What I like about Brett is that - in contrast to a lot of people who have transgressed in serious ways - he does NOT want people to forget what he's done. He wants them to forgive it. And he's working hard to earn that forgiveness, in spite of the fact that he knows that a lot of people will never give it.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I have always loved reading posts, or articles of Sutton. I could never word it like Rappster, but he summed up my reasons.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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a few points:

1. If you had had a girl instead of a boy you'd have a vastly different opinion..

2. In terms of the character of the athletes on his team. Triathletes are a self absorbed bunch and that's what it takes to reach the top of any sport. But to overlook this 'transgression'..well, im sorry, i don't know how you do it. If he had done the same thing as a gas station attendant who coached part time and never reached his current status no one , not a single person on this board who support him in anyway. But since he is the almighty coach of world champion triathletes he automatically will have more people 'forgiving' than normally would. That being said, he certainly has a right to make a living. I'm sure he's paid over and over for his sins.

3. Some crimes are just not forgivable...

4. It's no one's place to forgive except for that teenage girl. Does anyone have any idea if she has 'forgiven' him? Did she turn out all screwed up?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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avagoyamug wrote:


To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

Gotta disagree here. You may argue consensuality of a 16/17 year old and I might buy that based upon maturity, life experience, but I would still err on it being immoral, less immoral if the ages are close, like a 18 year old with a 16 year old. Still wrong. Something I have and lived by being off limits.

14 / 15? Sorry. especially this day and age, far to over sexualized and the mental capacity / maturity is not there, not to mention the manipulative difference of someone in a position of authority who can often be looked to as having that persons "best interests" involved.

the person in question ultimately may have been a "willing" participant, but that still does not rise, at least in my moral and understanding of the term, to a consensually possible outcome. That is why the act is considered statutory rape. Person may have been willing, or person may have in fact been the aggressor, morality and the law says it is a no-no, and it is up to the adult to control their hormones, understand the consequences
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [TriGirrrrl] [ In reply to ]
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TriGirrrrl wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:
Its a distasteful topic granted but you are assuming that a 14/15 year old girl has no sexual drive, and it's pretty clear that is incorrect.
from all reports she seduced him and he never said that once in public to protect her.

There is so much difference between Sandusky using power to Seduce 12 year old boys and Sutton that if you really think the only difference is the number of people affected you are simpy wrong.


his job as the ADULT and COACH was to NOT be seduced.
I don't care if she got naked and crawled on top of him

x2

Parents entrust their pride and joy to coaches all over the world. Coaches of teenagers have a far greater responsibility than a random adult. There is a very good reason why he is banned from coaching is Australia and it is because he crossed over one of the basic lines that should never be crossed in coaching teens. Sorry, on this one, I give him no second chances. At least here in Canada (and I am sure they have the equivalent in Oz) in the Intro to Community Coaching Module that you have to take in every NCCP course (regardless of sport) there is a big section devoted to that. I coach teens in an XC ski club and also coach the team at my son's high school. Both the national federations and the school boards are very up front of the expected behaviour of all coaches. Sorry Sutton....no forgiveness on this one!

For anyone to blame the 15 year old for seducing him is ridiculous. Nothing like blaming the rape victim....come on people, we're better than that (I hope).
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [SlayerHatebreed] [ In reply to ]
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SlayerHatebreed wrote:
It would have been unfortunate if Wellington had continued to race had her heart not been in it any more... sad is when 20+ people get gunned down in Connecticut.

Every IM she raced she won, set records, and elevated the game of women's long course multisport. She went out on top, undefeated. I'm not sure why people think this is sad - I think it's refrshing.

I agree that it would have been unfortunate if Wellington continued to race in her current state. My point is that she apparently destroyed herself to the extent that her heart was no longer in it. She may well be the greatest long distance triathlete of all time, and she's no longer doing it. That, to me, is sad.

20+ children getting gunned down in Connecticut is horrific, not just sad. But it's interesting that's the only thing that registers on your emotional radar.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Cynical? Why do you think every other pro came running to him after his success with Chrissie? I doubt it was because they wanted to be best pals with him.. There is not exactly a lack of coaches to choose from out there and anyone who makes a decision on coaching has to weigh the pro and cons of the coach. I think most people would lie if they claimed Bretts past is not a relatively big con but obviously the athletes who still choose him over other high performance coaches think other things outweigh that. Not sure how anyone can dispute that.

The question of how bad it is to enable someone who commited his crime in the context of coaching to continue in that profession is one I'm not exactly sure of in this case, but it should probably never be taken lightly. I know some excellent people who are coached and have been coached by him and I don't question their character but at the same time the whole concept bothers me slightly.




BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se
Last edited by: bjorn: Jan 10, 13 13:22
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [realAlbertan] [ In reply to ]
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realAlbertan wrote:
A 14 year old can't consent in most juriadictions

Age of consent is 14 or 15 in many European countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/...of_consent_in_Europe
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [trexleradam] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.

No, mass murders aren't the only thing that registers on my emotional radar - another assumption.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"What could have been with Chrissie"

What the heck are you talking about... she accomplished everything and in many eyes, including my own, was the best ever. She was never beaten. What else more where you expecting? How many titles is enough?

Of course we lost something special when she retired.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
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I have heard I few people mention this dropped of to run back as a great coaching thing to do. How does that differ from finishing a 26 mile run from we're you start. The idea is so over looked. I had my wife drop we off 120 km away from penticton and rode one direction. It sucks I had a giant tail wind and was going 45- 50 km/ hr without hitting zone2.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [SlayerHatebreed] [ In reply to ]
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SlayerHatebreed wrote:
Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.
I said as much in my original post. Impossible to say about her inner motivations and state.
But I loved having her in the sport and selfishly wish she hadn't retired.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Brett Sutton, is that you?
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it is so much about running 26 miles, but instead the way that it was prescribed. Get out of the van, hi nice to meet you, here is your route. They had no idea until they were told to do so. Much different from a 26 mile run that is planned. To each their own though, lots of people don't think Sutton's ways work, but he must be doing something right.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [SlayerHatebreed] [ In reply to ]
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SlayerHatebreed wrote:
"What could have been with Chrissie"

What the heck are you talking about... she accomplished everything and in many eyes, including my own, was the best ever. She was never beaten. What else more where you expecting? How many titles is enough?

Of course we lost something special when she retired.


For a guy who hammers other people about making assumptions, you are making a whole bunch yourself right there about my post. Why do you assume that I'm talking about titles? By not racing, her influence on the sport is diminished. I'm sure there are some who will disagree with that, but when she retired, she sacrificed a lot of her platform. I think Chrissie could have changed the sport in much, much more meaningful ways than just raising the bar on competition. She still might. But I think it will be harder to do that if she is not racing. Now, I don't think she needed to do that, by any means. She gave the sport and all of us a lot. But I think there was really no limit to what she could have done within the sport as a leader. And THAT is what I mean when I say "what could have been." And that's also what I think Brett is referring to.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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The age of consent in Canada was 14 until 2008 (changed to 16). Although in cases of authority the age is 18.


Although I agree with the base argument with respect to Sutton, I have trouble forgiving but simply because it would put me on a slippery slope towards supporting the reinstatement of Cecil Russell, something I am not inclined to do.

____________________________________________

"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. I'm more optimistic than you that she'll be able to actually make more change in her causes now that she'll have much more free time/energy. She can always use her athletic accomplishments from her past as credentials to be heard.

Hammering people? I hammer Dev regularly, I wasn't hammering the poster above.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [trexleradam] [ In reply to ]
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trexleradam wrote:
SlayerHatebreed wrote:
Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.

I said as much in my original post. Impossible to say about her inner motivations and state.
But I loved having her in the sport and selfishly wish she hadn't retired.

---

Chrissie said that she had given as much as she could to Ironman and was now moving on to persue other things in life.It was a hard decision for her but one she is very happy with..It is really that simple..

----
Last edited by: Ultra-tri-guy: Jan 10, 13 13:45
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [trexleradam] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. I also feel that any female IM Kona champ from 2012-2016ish will always be remembered mostly as champ-because-Wellington-retired in the theme of Carfrae's '10 win, Smyers' '95 or Welch's '94 with Allen absent.

But many respond with the "you can only race who shows up" cliche which is also fair.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Yknot wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534


What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.


The difference is that every athlete who signs up with Sutton knows about his past. He admitted to his crime, and it was a heinous crime; I do not deny, and neither does Brett. And he served the sentence he was given. That is - to me anyway - a significant difference. I respect that you may not see that as being a difference or being significant.

What I like about Brett is that - in contrast to a lot of people who have transgressed in serious ways - he does NOT want people to forget what he's done. He wants them to forgive it. And he's working hard to earn that forgiveness, in spite of the fact that he knows that a lot of people will never give it.

You're a smart guy. I suggest you do a bit more research on the case, and also on the personality traits of people that commit the crimes such as the one Sutton committed. Everything that comes out of his mouth is for his own benefit. Manipulators are master conmen.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
trexleradam wrote:
SlayerHatebreed wrote:
Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.

I said as much in my original post. Impossible to say about her inner motivations and state.
But I loved having her in the sport and selfishly wish she hadn't retired.

---

Chrissie said that she had given as much as she could to Ironman and was now moving on to persue other things in life.It was a hard decision for her but one she is very happy with..It is really that simple..

----
I'm happy she's happy, but athletic motivations are rarely simple.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [ In reply to ]
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avagoyamug wrote:

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

Do you realize what you have written? An adult having a 'consensual relationship' with a 14 year old..? That's pretty sick.
Sutton & Lance - they'd make good pair. It's everyone else's fault.

His questionable behaviour didn't stop after the multiple incidents with the 14 year old girl.
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
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He criticizes Mark Allen and Dave Scott as not being "real" coaches because they coach age groupers. But yet Chrissie left, in part, because Sutton was holding her back from receiving the pay she was truly worth as a pro.

How ironic that Chrissie eventually moved on to be coached by Dave Scott.

Even forgetting (or forgiving) Sutton's rape conviction, he continually reaffirms that he's not a world-class coach. Coaching is about more than making athletes winners in competition--it includes showing them how to professionally interact with competitors, the press, and the public without being catty or denigrating. He continually fails in this.
Last edited by: AlwaysCurious: Jan 10, 13 14:50
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Re: Brett Sutton Article [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

Do you realize what you have written? An adult having a 'consensual relationship' with a 14 year old..? That's pretty sick.
Sutton & Lance - they'd make good pair. It's everyone else's fault.

His questionable behaviour didn't stop after the multiple incidents with the 14 year old girl.

Save the drama queen act sweetheart.

I said that is was wrong. What I am saying is that there are degrees of wrong and what he did it is not in the same post code as what Sandusky did or what every second catholic priest has done all over the world that are still protected by that evil corporation, even today.

If you feel that what he did and molesting 6-12 year old boys are the same because there are no degrees of wrong, just either right or wrong, then go ahead. I just don't see it that way.

He has paid for what he did again and again and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. Its part of the reason he is doing so much good at the moment as he is trying to make amends.

And by the way, the girl in question married on of Australia's top triathletes (now Tri coach) and has been for over ten years. She's fine.
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