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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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in fairness, randy, i notice that yours is a 'triathlon and adventures' blog and not a 'world peace and the cure for cancer' blog.

let's all just lighten up a bit.

-mike

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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It was easier being when we all agreed to bitch about xxxxx xxxxxxxxx
A lot like when the Soviet Union was around. We knew who to hate.
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [AthletesOnTrack] [ In reply to ]
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At first glance, your main point is certainly worthy of hearing, especially for newbies who are focused on distances. I am one of them. For me, just moving any distance was a challenge, due to my own self-imposed prison of obesity. Going from zero to 5k to 13 miles was the path I took. Along the way I have gained appreciation for how hard short course is, to a real racer. I had never seen someone cross the finish line at a 5 or 10k, since I was only ever in the way back. Then I helped put on an event and watched the winners. The effort was tremendous. I had a new appreciation for a fast 5k, as opposed to a steady non-BQ marathon. So to your alleged point, I get it, and I look like one of the people you think you are talking about.

Trouble is, you shoot your own argument down by two credibility problems:

1. and this is, of course, debatable - I am not sure how many people there are like this, who look down on short distance while being very slow at long distance. You seem to have put up a great strawman to burn in effigy.

2. You further this by your own desire to crap all over anyone who is slow, whether they have invited it by looking down on short course athletes or not. No, not ANYONE can walk a marathon in 6 hours. That is not true. My 3+ hour half marathons have hurt like hell. I don't intend to always be this fat and slow, and I am not changing overnight. But it appears to annoy the life out of you that we slowpokes exist, and dare to even show up. Who the hell do we think we are, allowing people to cheer us on at the finish with our terrible selves that aren't REAL athletes.

So while your main stated point that short course speed is as difficult, or more difficult usually, and worthy of respect, as long course at any speed, is a point that I think anyone who pays attention can agree with, (going for a comma/clause record here) your need to paint all slow distance athletes with the imagery you've chosen weakens your argument, and makes you look like a complete douchenozzle.

===================================
I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [AthletesOnTrack] [ In reply to ]
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The people I know who do ultras aren't snobs and are actually far more humble than 90% of the people on ST, including you. I don't know what crowd you are hanging out with but it is the wrong one.

And if you are going to whine about it, man up and go long so you get the respect you think you deserve.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
jlafren42 wrote:
i agree, people "distance up" usually when they can't compete with the deeper fields of more traditional races. I wouldn't even know what a good time for a 100k run would be, but i know how hard it is to run sub 3 in a marathon.


---

Last year the World 100k Championships were won in 6:23:20 with the top 11 going under 7hrs...To win my National Champs in June I will have to run under 7:30 and hope that nobody fast shows up.

----

That's awesome. Best of luck.
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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A couple of other posters have perhaps put it better than me, iron_mike and pattersonpaul.

It feels like there is a growing lack of respect for shorter races, and that's a shame. When it's coupled with an unreasonable esteem for endurance or ultra-endurance events, it can get a bit silly.

That's probably a lot more clear and concise than I put it the first time. I respect anybody getting off the couch and out the door, just that puts you in the top what, 5% of the population, because you beat everyone still on the couch. The people I don't respect are the ones who don't respect athletes racing other distances. I can definitely see where that's not what came across, and that's just poor writing and editing on my part.

No distance is more legit than any other, no speed is more legit than any other. Better?
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
razorbacksteve wrote:
Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
jlafren42 wrote:
i agree, people "distance up" usually when they can't compete with the deeper fields of more traditional races. I wouldn't even know what a good time for a 100k run would be, but i know how hard it is to run sub 3 in a marathon.


---

Last year the World 100k Championships were won in 6:23:20 with the top 11 going under 7hrs...To win my National Champs in June I will have to run under 7:30 and hope that nobody fast shows up.

----


Wow. Good luck. That stuff is incredible.


--

For the Americans here the current World 24hr Champion is 41 year old Yank, Mike Morton who won the race by covering 277.543kilometers(173.4 miles) which is a great performance but still around 26k short of Yiannis Kouros' world record..

---

Don't know much about the history here, but I think that record is so far above anyone else that it looks like it may never be broken. Something like 7:40 min/mi for 24 hours...ridiculous.

-Stephen in Arkansas
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [AthletesOnTrack] [ In reply to ]
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So you had a few to agree and that is what you meant, your in the wrong business, back to your cubical, at one of those online coaching places
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [AthletesOnTrack] [ In reply to ]
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Snobs in every sport; triathlon no different.

I typically stick to myself and don't care what people think, just train the way you want, race your race. And tune out negativity
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [usmultisport] [ In reply to ]
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usmultisport wrote:
The reason people go to ultras is because they can run fast in the smaller distances and wanted to do something more challenging and don't have to be type A and post it on a blog, I always have a qoute (You might be fast but will you last) in all my years most are on the couch after a couple of years, big deal

I wish this were the case. I really like the ultra-runner crowd, but your perception is disconnected with reality. Most of the ultra-types aren't really that fast--it just seems they're just curious how their bodies do out at those distances. (and as Jen states, seem pretty cool/humble folk)

I believe the OP's rant is against the general public perception is distance traveled >> speed distance is traveled in (which requires a bit more training + athletic ability)

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [Derf] [ In reply to ]
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I believe the OP's rant is against the general public perception is distance traveled >> speed distance is traveled in (which requires a bit more training + athletic ability)

...and I suppose what we all need to remember is that we're doing this not for the general public, but hopefully for other reasons. Which may or may not be better than attempting to gain the accolades of the couch potatoes in our lives, but that's another topic...

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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [AthletesOnTrack] [ In reply to ]
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AthletesOnTrack wrote:

It feels like there is a growing lack of respect for shorter races, and that's a shame. When it's coupled with an unreasonable esteem for endurance or ultra-endurance events, it can get a bit silly.

I think this statement is complete BS. Who are the most famous runners? Usain Bolt. Steve Prefontaine. Michael Johnson. Millions of people know who these guys are. None of them are known for running over 5000m. How many people know Paula Jane Radcliffe is? How many non-triathletes know who Macca or Crowie are?

I think you need to worry more about yourself and your athletes and less about being jealous about being overlooked.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [Mike C] [ In reply to ]
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Agree entirely, I do these things primarily because I'm addicted to it, not for others.

Distance-ism is certainly a curiosity, I'll admit.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [pattersonpaul] [ In reply to ]
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pattersonpaul wrote:
If over the weekend I finished a marathon in 6 hours and you ran a 5k in 17 minutes guess who
gets the most kudos from our co-workers? Me. After all you just ran for 17 minutes, anyone
can do that.

Sad, but so true!
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [AthletesOnTrack] [ In reply to ]
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AthletesOnTrack wrote:
I don't get ultra-endurance snobs, especially slow ones.

Also, are you the Steen Rose who finished the Buffalo Springs Lake 70.3 Triathlon 2012 in 5:28 with a 40 minute swim, 2:35 bike and a run of 2:07?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [Derf] [ In reply to ]
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I respect your opinion, but maybe your hanging with the wrong crowd, that being said, the older we get, the slower we will get,, it it a part of life, so then you say anyone can do a 5k and be in the bar by 10.00am (in my walker)
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [AthletesOnTrack] [ In reply to ]
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AthletesOnTrack wrote:
A couple of other posters have perhaps put it better than me, iron_mike and pattersonpaul.

It feels like there is a growing lack of respect for shorter races, and that's a shame. When it's coupled with an unreasonable esteem for endurance or ultra-endurance events, it can get a bit silly.

That's probably a lot more clear and concise than I put it the first time. I respect anybody getting off the couch and out the door, just that puts you in the top what, 5% of the population, because you beat everyone still on the couch. The people I don't respect are the ones who don't respect athletes racing other distances. I can definitely see where that's not what came across, and that's just poor writing and editing on my part.

No distance is more legit than any other, no speed is more legit than any other. Better?

Sure, that makes more sense. And now I am genuinely curious to hear some examples of how people express this lack of respect. Since you're in coaching, I assume this has some real world basis, so lay it on us. My guess is that whether it's short or long course, the vast majority of people, even the ones willing to throw their hat into the multisport ring, have no shot to ever podium. We're always going to be only racing ourselves. We can't appreciate the difference between 1st and 3rd place in a 5k, it's all beyond us, even MOPers. So while we certainly can push ourselves with the pursuit of lower PRs, there is a different kind of satisfaction from going the distance. It's why endurance sports are called endurance. I am starting to see more and more why I need to set goals of both kinds. I have personally decided to not even think about a full marathon until I can get my 10k and 1/2mary times down to a reasonable range. That's going to take a lot more work than it took me to go from zero to finishing the first ones.

Maybe I'm a bad example. Always been fat and unathletic, so I have mad respect for fast people at ANY distance. Maybe the population that is grating on you is closer to the actual MOP than the BOP. I don't know. I may be a poor representative of the BOP as it is. Seriously though, some "for instance" comments you've actually heard would be helpful.

===================================
I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [RunFatboyRun] [ In reply to ]
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And now I am genuinely curious to hear some examples of how people express this lack of respect.

Another poster hit it squarely on the head---talk to a group of people that don't know better, and discuss two different athletes' performances at, say, 5k and marathon (or insert any two disparate distances there): one runs a sub-17 5k, wins AG, and the other finishes marathon in 6 hours...who will this group of "un-knowing" people give the "oohs and ahhs" to?

Those of us that "know"...know a 5k hurts like a mo-fo when run correctly, while a 6-hour marathon would be painful in its own right---just not a "laudable" achievement.

Not sure if that helps...

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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [Mike C] [ In reply to ]
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Mike C wrote:
And now I am genuinely curious to hear some examples of how people express this lack of respect.

Another poster hit it squarely on the head---talk to a group of people that don't know better, and discuss two different athletes' performances at, say, 5k and marathon (or insert any two disparate distances there): one runs a sub-17 5k, wins AG, and the other finishes marathon in 6 hours...who will this group of "un-knowing" people give the "oohs and ahhs" to?

Those of us that "know"...know a 5k hurts like a mo-fo when run correctly, while a 6-hour marathon would be painful in its own right---just not a "laudable" achievement.

Not sure if that helps...

OK, it does, to a degree. And these are not people who take part in the sport, so why are we caring about their opinion again? I wonder how many actual runners or triathletes have this attitude. That is what the OP was about. Hey, I get the other thing, I have mostly non-athletic friends, so distance means more than time to them. But we were talking about athletes who look down on other athletes.

===================================
I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [RunFatboyRun] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder how many actual runners or triathletes have this attitude. That is what the OP was about. Hey, I get the other thing, I have mostly non-athletic friends, so distance means more than time to them. But we were talking about athletes who look down on other athletes.

Quoting from the linked blog:

"Race whatever distance and whatever sport make you happy, but don’t expect respect for just finishing something long when you look down on other athletes just because their events are shorter than yours. It’s no more fair to say “anybody can do an ironman” than it is to say “it’s only a 5k” or “anybody can run for 20 minutes.”

Okay, reading that again does have be a bit confused as well, as I don't know too many folks who are the "completers" having the cojones to "look down" at anyone with respect to distance.
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [RunFatboyRun] [ In reply to ]
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RunFatboyRun wrote:
Mike C wrote:
And now I am genuinely curious to hear some examples of how people express this lack of respect.

Another poster hit it squarely on the head---talk to a group of people that don't know better, and discuss two different athletes' performances at, say, 5k and marathon (or insert any two disparate distances there): one runs a sub-17 5k, wins AG, and the other finishes marathon in 6 hours...who will this group of "un-knowing" people give the "oohs and ahhs" to?

Those of us that "know"...know a 5k hurts like a mo-fo when run correctly, while a 6-hour marathon would be painful in its own right---just not a "laudable" achievement.

Not sure if that helps...


OK, it does, to a degree. And these are not people who take part in the sport, so why are we caring about their opinion again? I wonder how many actual runners or triathletes have this attitude. That is what the OP was about. Hey, I get the other thing, I have mostly non-athletic friends, so distance means more than time to them. But we were talking about athletes who look down on other athletes.

These the same folsk that say "ooooh, the one in hawaii?" when you say you did a sprint tri over the weekend.

Isn't this just a disguised "IM cutoff should be 12 hours" thread? I am with you, I could give a shit what people at work or Cousin Kevin at Thanksgiving think
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [Mike C] [ In reply to ]
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Mike C wrote:
I wonder how many actual runners or triathletes have this attitude. That is what the OP was about. Hey, I get the other thing, I have mostly non-athletic friends, so distance means more than time to them. But we were talking about athletes who look down on other athletes.

Quoting from the linked blog:

"Race whatever distance and whatever sport make you happy, but don’t expect respect for just finishing something long when you look down on other athletes just because their events are shorter than yours. It’s no more fair to say “anybody can do an ironman” than it is to say “it’s only a 5k” or “anybody can run for 20 minutes.”

Okay, reading that again does have be a bit confused as well, as I don't know too many folks who are the "completers" having the cojones to "look down" at anyone with respect to distance.

So, does the author say in the same blog post:
1. it's unfair to say anyone can complete an ironman
2. anyone can complete an ironman

My head hurts now. I am out the door to go teach some cub scouts how to twist balloons, or I would look at the blog closer. Can't wait to see how this thread develops while I'm out.

===================================
I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [Derf] [ In reply to ]
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I'm doing two 100 milers this year and in my opinion, it is going to take much less work and training and coaching and neglecting my job and friends and family in order to finish those, than for me to ever get fast enough to even attempt an 18min 5K.

You fasties are crazy and I could never start to pretend to be one, and you have all of my respect!!!!
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [npda] [ In reply to ]
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I have crewed a couple 100's for friends, and while I love crewing and pacing, the more I've helped, the less I want to do one. :)

Y'all are nuts and have my greatest respect. :)

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Rant About Ultra Endurance Snobs [AthletesOnTrack] [ In reply to ]
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"I don't get ultra-endurance snobs, especially slow ones. People who think they're awesome because they did some really long race, but think that short events aren't real."

I have not met one of these. Have you ever met anyone who came to you and said:


respect the fact that you I can shuffle along for a long time, barely breaking a sweat, chatting with my friends and treating aid stations as a buffet table while I do an IM


It may have happened but probably did not happen too often, the only snob here is you. Add in the pearler from your website where you claim to communicate well with athletes at all levels, well unless you are a back of pack who dares to mention your achievement in the context of a lesser distance. Icing on the cake your Joe Friel elite qualification




Steen graduated with honors from Texas State University with a degree in Communication, and can connect with athletes at all levels and ages. His monthly articles in The Racing Post are popular with beginners and experts alike. Steen is an Elite Coach with Joe Friel’s Training Bible Coaching.
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