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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Sinces Rapps original post(2010? or 2009?) Wasnt Contedor done for doping, clenbuterol to be specific?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Cake] [ In reply to ]
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Cake wrote:
Sinces Rapps original post(2010? or 2009?) Wasnt Contedor done for doping, clenbuterol to be specific?

Yes. popper for Clen, though likely it wasn't the doping material but rather part of what he was doing to mask doping. Though it is hypothetical he was just on clean for weight reduction, there were rumors he came into TdF that year a bit heavier than normal.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
mcycle wrote:

GL: What wattage was he doing? I would look more at wattage because the rate of vertical ascent could vary so much depending on the pavement. Wattage is the ultimate truth. You know I'm very controversial because I think that you have to look at numbers.
My wattage, relative to VO2 Max...a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way...I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l'Alpe d'Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390. That was the historic norm for Hinault and myself. You've got times going back many, many years. But what was learned recently, in the last 5 years, was that when you start the Tour de France, you start with a normal hematocrit of, say, 45 percent. By the time you finish, it's probably down 10 or 15 percent. Which means my VO2 Max dropped 10 or 15 percent. So that's why I was never producing the same wattage. And then there a lot of other factors that help performance if you've recovered. My last time trial in '89, I averaged about 420, 430 watts, which would match or be slightly down from what my real VO2 Max was.
Of course, in the '90s drugs came on the scene, so the wattages have gone out..


Blast from the past thread I am just reading. I love this quote... Greg Lemond is saying that drugs only came on the scene in the 90s. How droll.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to oxygen vector drugs, in which case he's correct.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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pick6 wrote:
Cake wrote:
Sinces Rapps original post(2010? or 2009?) Wasnt Contedor done for doping, clenbuterol to be specific?


Yes. popper for Clen, though likely it wasn't the doping material but rather part of what he was doing to mask doping. Though it is hypothetical he was just on clean for weight reduction, there were rumors he came into TdF that year a bit heavier than normal.

His super human performances at times suggested he was doping.

Listened to a Tyler Hamilton interview(interview was from during the summer) yesterday and he was asked did he still think there was still a massive doping problem in cycling. He referenced some stage that had just happened the day before with a big climb and said that the climber who got to the top first/won, the time would have only gotten the rider into 45th position during his and lances time racing that same climb. So maybe its a little cleaner.

So despite the UCI being a disgrace, cycling might now be a little cleaner. Though it still made me feel horrible, watching people fawning and commentators glossing over Contador's return the the Veulta this year.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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pick6 wrote:
Cake wrote:
Sinces Rapps original post(2010? or 2009?) Wasnt Contedor done for doping, clenbuterol to be specific?

Yes. popper for Clen, though likely it wasn't the doping material but rather part of what he was doing to mask doping. Though it is hypothetical he was just on clean for weight reduction, there were rumors he came into TdF that year a bit heavier than normal.

What's wrong with you people? Alberto didn't dope he ate tainted beef man!

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
BLeP wrote:
mcycle wrote:

GL: What wattage was he doing? I would look more at wattage because the rate of vertical ascent could vary so much depending on the pavement. Wattage is the ultimate truth. You know I'm very controversial because I think that you have to look at numbers.
My wattage, relative to VO2 Max...a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way...I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l'Alpe d'Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390. That was the historic norm for Hinault and myself. You've got times going back many, many years. But what was learned recently, in the last 5 years, was that when you start the Tour de France, you start with a normal hematocrit of, say, 45 percent. By the time you finish, it's probably down 10 or 15 percent. Which means my VO2 Max dropped 10 or 15 percent. So that's why I was never producing the same wattage. And then there a lot of other factors that help performance if you've recovered. My last time trial in '89, I averaged about 420, 430 watts, which would match or be slightly down from what my real VO2 Max was.
Of course, in the '90s drugs came on the scene, so the wattages have gone out..


Blast from the past thread I am just reading. I love this quote... Greg Lemond is saying that drugs only came on the scene in the 90s. How droll.


I'm pretty sure he's referring to oxygen vector drugs, in which case he's correct.

Lemond is definitely referring to O2 vector drugs and has clarified this in other interviews. He wasn't implying there were not drugs in the sport, but the readily available drugs were not making donkeys into thoroughbreds. Hence, a thoroughbred (in the late 80s) could beat a doped up donkey.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe this is too simplistic of a view, but if all the dopers are allegedly gone, shouldn't we be seeing a fairly drastic decline in times? If so, then yes, this chart is disturbing.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [jamlo] [ In reply to ]
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jamlo wrote:
Maybe this is too simplistic of a view, but if all the dopers are allegedly gone, shouldn't we be seeing a fairly drastic decline in times? If so, then yes, this chart is disturbing.

This might help put some context to that question.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/...let-6wkg-anyone.html
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [jamlo] [ In reply to ]
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jamlo wrote:
Maybe this is too simplistic of a view, but if all the dopers are allegedly gone, shouldn't we be seeing a fairly drastic decline in times? If so, then yes, this chart is disturbing.

Generally, yes, the times are drastically slower than the late 90's and early 2000's. The Tourmalet link is a good one, but there's a better chart out there - can't find it right now - that compares the best climbing performances for recent years with the times for the same climbs ~10 years ago and prior.

But, yes, the generally trend in the data is that the sport - as a whole - is getting cleaner. And of those riders that continue to outperform - like Contador and Frank (but not Andy) Schleck - a doping positive seems just around the corner.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
But, yes, the generally trend in the data is that the sport - as a whole - is getting cleaner. And of those riders that continue to outperform - like Contador and Frank (but not Andy) Schleck - a doping positive seems just around the corner.

What would be the thinking to select Frank but not Andy?

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [miwoodar] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting Article. The other chart in this article shows that the average power outputs on mountain stages were superior in the mid '90s AKA the Festina Era, than they were in the 1999-2005 era AKA the Armstrong era.



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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Gandalf] [ In reply to ]
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Frank got popped this year.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Gandalf] [ In reply to ]
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Gandalf wrote:
Rappstar wrote:

But, yes, the generally trend in the data is that the sport - as a whole - is getting cleaner. And of those riders that continue to outperform - like Contador and Frank (but not Andy) Schleck - a doping positive seems just around the corner.


What would be the thinking to select Frank but not Andy?

Andy is an interesting case. While his brother has been linked to doping doctors and now popped positive, Andy never has directly, and frankly (an unintentional pun), a lack of doping could well explain his inability to hang with Contador in some climbs, even though andy is usually a leaner specimen. I havent seen andy's w/kg in a while to help clarify that. There's still the concern though because of how close the brothers are.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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yes, but Frank says he was poisoned. Some theory about Bruyneel lacing his coffee with a diuretic.


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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [JChapATX] [ In reply to ]
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JChapATX wrote:
yes, but Frank says he was poisoned. Some theory about Bruyneel lacing his coffee with a diuretic.

Uh huh... and Tyler Hamilton had blood in his system from an unborn twin.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone see the ESPN 30 for 30 on Ben Johnson of 100m fame titled 9.79? There is some evidence that he may have been "poisoned" or slipped steroids without him knowing it. It is a good watch. Carl Lewis is still in denial while others have come clean. Ben seems to think should have been clean at the games but admits he was NOT clean in training aka out of competition. One of Ben's team mates thought getting popped at the olympics was rediculous as you they were long off the PEDs by then.

JW (on the comback trail)
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [NYCTri] [ In reply to ]
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I watched it today. CL is sad.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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pick6 wrote:
Gandalf wrote:
Rappstar wrote:

But, yes, the generally trend in the data is that the sport - as a whole - is getting cleaner. And of those riders that continue to outperform - like Contador and Frank (but not Andy) Schleck - a doping positive seems just around the corner.


What would be the thinking to select Frank but not Andy?


Andy is an interesting case. While his brother has been linked to doping doctors and now popped positive, Andy never has directly, and frankly (an unintentional pun), a lack of doping could well explain his inability to hang with Contador in some climbs, even though andy is usually a leaner specimen. I havent seen andy's w/kg in a while to help clarify that. There's still the concern though because of how close the brothers are.

I the last few years, Andy has generally been thought to be a better climber than Contador, and widely criticized for not attacking him earlier in the climbs. Condator has beaten AS on the time trials not the hills.

The brothers are obviously very close. Whilst guilt by association shouldn't be a key argument, it often is (in cycling) and it would be strange to find that one of the brothers was doping and the other wasn't. Particularly when it was the weaker of the two that would be suspected. Hence my question to Rappstar. Andy has hung with the best climbers (thus outperorming) yet no suspicion on him. If Jordan is going from the data, AS would me a more likely candidate than FS.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
Frank got popped this year.

I know, but Jordan was surmising the potential candidates for future positives based on the performances rather than the previous test results.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Gandalf] [ In reply to ]
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Gandalf wrote:
pick6 wrote:
Gandalf wrote:
Rappstar wrote:

But, yes, the generally trend in the data is that the sport - as a whole - is getting cleaner. And of those riders that continue to outperform - like Contador and Frank (but not Andy) Schleck - a doping positive seems just around the corner.


What would be the thinking to select Frank but not Andy?


Andy is an interesting case. While his brother has been linked to doping doctors and now popped positive, Andy never has directly, and frankly (an unintentional pun), a lack of doping could well explain his inability to hang with Contador in some climbs, even though andy is usually a leaner specimen. I havent seen andy's w/kg in a while to help clarify that. There's still the concern though because of how close the brothers are.


I the last few years, Andy has generally been thought to be a better climber than Contador, and widely criticized for not attacking him earlier in the climbs. Condator has beaten AS on the time trials not the hills.

The brothers are obviously very close. Whilst guilt by association shouldn't be a key argument, it often is (in cycling) and it would be strange to find that one of the brothers was doping and the other wasn't. Particularly when it was the weaker of the two that would be suspected. Hence my question to Rappstar. Andy has hung with the best climbers (thus outperorming) yet no suspicion on him. If Jordan is going from the data, AS would me a more likely candidate than FS.

Andy was criticized for it, but I've watched, and i honestly think he couldnt have dropped AC, or at least not dropped him and let AC get back on. AC is so strong in the steepest sections, Andy gets through them but not like AC does.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [pick6] [ In reply to ]
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Yes PEDs make AC very strong.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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As someone I know (that knows AC) once said, "He's so doped he doesn't even know he has legs anymore..."
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [fasterisbetter] [ In reply to ]
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Well, at least it is proven that he does not know anything about the meat he eats. Man, those cows that use plasticizers (sp?) are a new breed of cow!!!
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [jamlo] [ In reply to ]
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jamlo wrote:
Maybe this is too simplistic of a view, but if all the dopers are allegedly gone, shouldn't we be seeing a fairly drastic decline in times? If so, then yes, this chart is disturbing.

Going to have to check KOM dates on Strava now!

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