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SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation
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at least, please stop spreading it on this site.

i'll be honest with you guys. this is difficult. i'm confident that SIPE is or can be a problem. however, there is no evidence that i'm aware of that SIPE is connected with the deaths we've experienced in triathlon. furthermore, i've had to pull two threads this morning that stated that andy naylor's death in IM NYC was caused by SIPE. i just called the bergen county medical examiner. an autopsy has been performed. but the cause of death has not been determined because of tests that are not yet completed. you don't know what caused his death.

what bothers me is that this is turning into an urban myth, like the demented old lady drying her poodle in the microwave. a few of you are grabbing every death in swimming and "claiming" it on behalf of SIPE. please stop with the SIPE mania.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Aug 21, 12 6:53
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Dan - I think rumours would be minimized if we knew the truth. It seems like with all these deaths, everyone knows about the incident but any follow-up gets swept under the carpet. For example, people died at IMCdA and Vineman (which were months ago) and I still don't know why. It's all over the papers (with speculation) when it's news, but nobody ever follows up with factual and informative information. As an authoritative media organization in our sport, I think everyone on here would appreciate it if you guys could follow up on some of these incidents and give us the credible facts.
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [amagangan] [ In reply to ]
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we are following up. i gave you some credible facts in the article just following the death in NYC. did you read it?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Well, it's certainly scaring the bejezzus out of me!
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [vibrolux] [ In reply to ]
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X2 i thought the last post showed some actuall evidence to support the guys claim during IMNY. Although Dan was right on spot saying he was speculating what happened to The swimmer at IMNY.

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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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That post was there, but I couldn't access it so I guess it was in the middle of getting yanked. I'd like to see what he said.
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
we are following up. i gave you some credible facts in the article just following the death in NYC. did you read it?


I didn't. Where is this article?

[Edit: Nevermind. I think I found it.]
Last edited by: chemsmith: Aug 21, 12 7:35
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [vibrolux] [ In reply to ]
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The poster (whose fiancee was a cardio doctor) said that he was diagnosed with SIPE 56 miles into the bike, and wanted to share firsthand info about symptoms, causes, and what it feels like. The part that apparently got his post pulled was that he also claimed the dead guy died of SIPE.

I really hope he re-posts sans speculation, because it was a really good post.

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
Last edited by: AHare: Aug 21, 12 7:44
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [AHare] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I wanted to question one of the symptoms, because its one I experience often. Also I had a full blown panic attack in a sprint swim this past weekend. Many swimmers are nervous in general, since the start of the race was delayed by almost an hour there was a lot of discussion between the anxious athletes
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
at least, please stop spreading it on this site.

i'll be honest with you guys. this is difficult. i'm confident that SIPE is or can be a problem. however, there is no evidence that i'm aware of that SIPE is connected with the deaths we've experienced in triathlon. furthermore, i've had to pull two threads this morning that stated that andy naylor's death in IM NYC was caused by SIPE. i just called the bergen county medical examiner. an autopsy has been performed. but the cause of death has not been determined because of tests that are not yet completed. you don't know what caused his death.

what bothers me is that this is turning into an urban myth, like the demented old lady drying her poodle in the microwave. a few of you are grabbing every death in swimming and "claiming" it on behalf of SIPE. please stop with the SIPE mania.
------

Your comment is on the mark. We've also had all sorts of things suggested that everyone should be doing to prevent swim deaths ... all basically anecdotal driven as well. What we all need are some real facts about these events and unfortunately autopsy findings are unlikely to be released for confidentiality reasons or may well be inconclusive .... other than the obvious association of drowning. I suspect these are cardiac initiated events, but I don't know that for a fact. If they are cardiac events, we should be seeing lots of events that result in saves before drowning and that should be key ... the silence about those events is deafening. Hopefully USATs review will be factual based and not just conjecture on someones part. I think it is fair to talk about SIPE because we don't have good facts to guide us. It was interesting that the one person who reported his drowning event (aspiration +laryngospasm) on ST apparently didn't understand that his event was a drowning episode by definition and was even allowed to finish his race. Everything is just conjecture until we have some usable facts.

Dave
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [AHare] [ In reply to ]
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"I really hope he re-posts sans speculation, because it was a really good post."

there is not going to be any repost, because the user's account has been disabled. the account was disabled because i pulled the first post, and the user reposted what i pulled. furthermore, you guys seem to gloss over the post in one of those pulled threads from the cardiac physician who headed up USAT's panel investigating sudden cardiac death in triathlon, who pretty clearly - and maybe not clearly enough for you all - stated that the evidence that SIPE is to blame for triathlon's deaths is lacking.

i pulled the post (multiple times) because it's irresponsible in the extreme to co-opt the death of a NYC IM competitor and state with very little equivocation that SIPE was the cause of death, and to infer that it was also the cause in the death this past weekend at USAT nationals.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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if you want to know about SIPE, we've already covered it here. you'll find a thread on it here. and other threads.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
if you want to know about SIPE, we've already covered it here. you'll find a thread on it here. and other threads.
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Actually, I'm quite familiar with SIPE but I don't find it very compelling as the cause of the majority of problems seen. I personally wouldn't dismiss anything though until we have FACTS to guide us ....which are very lacking currently.

Dave :-)
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [AHare] [ In reply to ]
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"The poster (whose fiancee was a cardio doctor) said that he was diagnosed with SIPE 56 miles into the bike, and wanted to share firsthand info about symptoms, causes, and what it feels like. The part that apparently got his post pulled was that he also claimed the dead guy died of SIPE.

I really hope he re-posts sans speculation, because it was a really good post"

Yeah I thought is was a great post too. It was useful to understand the mindset and signs and symptoms that led up to him deciding to withdraw from the race. It may not have had anything to do with the cause of the recent swim deaths, but it was a good first hand account of the effects of SIPE as he continued on to the bike.

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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman's article from 2007 is similarly good - contains at least (I'm not done yet) 3 first-hand accounts like the pulled thread had, though the first-hand segments aren't as detailed.

STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [AHare] [ In reply to ]
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Agree. I just read them and thought they were very useful.
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [AHare] [ In reply to ]
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AHare wrote:
Slowman's article from 2007 is similarly good - contains at least (I'm not done yet) 3 first-hand accounts like the pulled thread had, though the first-hand segments aren't as detailed.

Correct.
I hope that the thread that was pulled wasn't because I questioned whether or not it had anything to do in general with swim deaths. There is some evidence to lead to questions about whether or not this is a real problem or not, but I have not heard that it was a cause of death in recent events, merely that it has been implicated in some deaths.

I find this all fascinating and don't understand why there cannot be a discussion about the information that is currently available to read on the subject.
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Allie] [ In reply to ]
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I find this all fascinating and don't understand why there cannot be a discussion about the information that is currently available to read on the subject.

Isn't that what we are doing right now and right here???
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think you over reacted in this particular case. What I paid attention to in that (those) post(s) was the first person account of experiencing SIPE and the decision to withdrawal from the race. Unless you are saying that SIPE never occurs and that the poster didnt suffer from SIPE then that content was worthwhile.

If the poster then stepped over the line by stating that the IMNY death was SIPE related, or that tri deaths in general are SIPE related, then simply state that in the thread. Publicly pointing out, in that thread, that that part was BS would have been better.

Victor

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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This is what worries me about triathletes. I am 58 thin-ish and in good shape. Last week in a sprint tri I had just started the run and got a hard pain across my chest. I figured it was muscular slowed down a few seconds it let up but did not go away so I decided to try going a lot faster. It went away after a few mins. BUT what a bad idea and exactly what most of us would do.
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I thought the personal account was great - why not just edit out the part of the death and leave his personal account? the information could help others potentially
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Bell Head] [ In reply to ]
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you guys can discuss SIPE all you want. if trey miller is around he can talk about it here on this thread intelligently. certainly larry creswell is around and can talk about sudden cardiac death in triathlon intelligently, since he is probably, as of this moment in time, the world's foremost authority on it.

so, have at it. nothing stopping you or anyone else. with this exception. you can't hijack the misfortune of others and co-opt it for your own pet view of death in triathlon. the person who posted this morning stated as follows: "i just wanted to share something with you guys about andy naylor, who died 8/11/12 during the NYC ironman, and my personal experience with the same medical condition he suffered from during the race." (italics mine)

this was news to me. i called the medical examiner tasked with determining the cause of his death, and the cause has not been released. tests have not been completed. so, that statement above is not only flat-out wrong, it disrespects the family and the man, and it's also disrespectful to those of you who are relying on the truth.

that post further said, of the death in USAT nationals this weekend: "I have no insight into this one, but unofficial word speculates this condition." patently untrue! i happen to know more than you all do about this death, because i'm in touch with those who were close to the deceased. this is just not true at all.

the person who wrote this has reposted it here twice, including just making up a new user account after the first user account was banned. the final time the post was again placed here the author had already read what i wrote above about there being no link between SIPE and these recent deaths, however that did not seem to matter to him/her.

if you want to post your opinion, observation, experience, fine. but what posted here stepped way over the line.

carry on...

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Settle down. I was talking about others reactions, not Dan's.
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, I obviously missed that whole thread and gladly so (or at least that nugget you quoted).

As a mid level provider and triathlete, I am genuinely curious about the information that is out there. If I ask questions then it is because of that, not because I don't value what Larry or others have to allow on the subject.

It is darn near impossible to find information on these issues because a. they are protected medical records (and should be to the general public) b. it cannot be replicated in a lab condition.

I will be interested to see what comes out of the medical research in the next few years in regards to this whole arena of swimming, SIPE, cardiac deaths.

I do know quite a few people locally who are going to IM Louisville and it will be their 2-3rd triathlon ever. I find that amazingly foolish, but no one asked my permission.
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Re: SIPEsters: please stop spreading misinformation [TriGirrrrl] [ In reply to ]
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"I thought the personal account was great - why not just edit out the part of the death and leave his personal account? the information could help others potentially"

you're talking to the wrong person. the person who posted this account - three times - had the benefit of seeing what i'd already posted: that the medical examiner had not ruled on the cause of death in the NYC tri. it was up to that person to stop posting patently untrue statements about the causes of deaths in triathlon. that person chose not to do so.

accordingly, this - to me - calls into question the entire post. if you're willing to make up stuff about others - which is particularly distasteful - then i question the utility of the entire post. we're going to have an appropriate discussion of sudden death in triathlon on slowtwitch.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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